PS3 harming Blu-ray acceptance
It is common knowledge that the PS3 is being used as a means to boost the Blu-ray install-base, even if Sony won't come out and say it. However, it would appear that Blu-ray is being harmed by its inclusion in the PS3.
According to a survey by Cymfony, a analyst group that focuses on market influence, HD-DVD has 46% more positive discussions on various websites than Blu-ray. Half as many people are also impressed with Blu-ray visuals than are with HD-DVD visuals. The key reasons for low Blu-ray acceptance is the forced (there's that word again) inclusion in the PS3 and Sony's format reputation.
Consumers are clearly not warming up to Blu-ray. The reasons range from fear of another Sony flop -- they've never been good at initializing a format change -- to the using the PS3 to boost the install base. It would appear that Microsoft's HD-DVD add-on was the right choice after all; if you want it, great, if you don't, you've saved yourself $200. If Cymfony's claims that they reliably predict market trends are right, this data could convince manufacturers that Blu-ray is a bad move and swing near-full support toward HD-DVD ... and damage a major PS3 selling point.
[Via Engadget]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Wickedneoq @ Dec 7th 2006 2:01PM
It's a shame, when you think about it. (The Playstation 3 is 2006's Sega Dreamcast? Ouch.) People still know and love the DVD by name, so why would they take a chance at a format that nearly has Sony written all over it? Blu-ray sounds like a great format, but I would think that it would take developers and movie companies longer just to fill the disc. At the same time, the consumer will look at Blu-ray as being expensive, as it already is! The PS3 is way too far ahead of its time, and if it came out NEXT year, then maybe Sony would be feeling pretty good about it. The Xbox 360 isn't hurting the Playstation 2 any... I think.
machrc @ Dec 7th 2006 2:02PM
I just hope MS will bring some sort of USB-HDMI cable to fully support the 1080p on major brand TVs because im having a hard time looking for flatscreens that support 1080p over vga, or component.
@ Dec 7th 2006 2:03PM
Hey Joystiq, maybe you should do some research before you post your crap. This was not a survey; they went to online blogs and forums and counted the number of postive and negative posts on BD and HD-DVD.
For a more objective assessment of this 'study' go here:
http://www.tgdaily.com/2006/12/06/blu-ray_hddvd_discussions/
Just because people scream really loud dont make it so.
Prof-KOS @ Dec 7th 2006 2:11PM
"Just because people scream really loud dont make it so." - said the pot to the kettle.
matthew @ Dec 7th 2006 2:12PM
Actually, that is a survey, as in they surveyed the message boards. Opinion polls are not the only form of surveying.
And the Joystiq post is pretty clear about the methods, though I disagree with them on the weight it carries.
I think its better to say Sony's name is hurting Blu-ray adoption as opposed to specifically the PlayStation name.
finklebean @ Dec 7th 2006 2:12PM
Its all in a name.
Average Consumer: "What the fuck is a Blu-Ray movie?"
Average consumer: "HD-DVD, I know what DVD movies are I know what HD means.High Definition MOVIES!!!"
In the end "keep it simple stupid" ,most consumers are stupid to technology and all Blu-Ray does is mess it up more.
Noah Mercy @ Dec 7th 2006 2:14PM
Including (forcing) Blu-ray in with PS3's also doesn't make consumers, like myself, feel like Sony has enough confidence that Blu-ray is a strong enough media format that can sell on it's own.
JK @ Dec 7th 2006 2:15PM
I personally think a big point, especially for the less-informed consumer, is the fact that Blu-Ray doesn't even sound like a next-gen video disc format. HD-DVD simply sounds more like a next-gen format, and most people have already heard of DVD, and are starting to hear about HD. They know what those letters mean, and it helps adoption rate when the consumer feels like they are in charge of their purchase decisions. Although considering I have a PS3, I hope Blu-Ray doesn't totally flop...
Does anyone wonder what would have happened if both formats used totally new names?
Alan H @ Dec 7th 2006 2:15PM
I was at Best Buy on on Thanksgiving weekend with my dad, and all they had were blue-ray peripherals. The salesman kept saying "blu-ray is the future, you better go with it, might as well buy the ps3 because its the cheapest one on the market." He kept saying blu-ray can play regular DVDs, HD-DVD is worthless.. I wonder how much Sony is paying Best Buy? Anyway now my dad has it in his mind to buy a ps3 for his 1080p tv.. and can't be convinced otherwise.
LunarDuality @ Dec 7th 2006 2:15PM
@ >
From the link you posted: "The study, which is not exactly scientific and undoubtedly includes posts from biased sources and people unfamiliar with the advantages of both formats, does underline one point that most critics are rightfully questioning: It harks on Sony's past."
Yes, the mass consumer discussion is almost always one where people don't necessarily have all the information or know why one format is better than the other. However, the masses are the ones that determine the ultimate winner in this format war. If a survey of the web turns up a "general" distaste for Blu-ray or a lack of interest in Blu-ray, then Sony have a problem. And that problem persists whether the conversations included in the survey are between knowledgable tech heads or Joe Schmoes.
Market research is always a difficult metric to study and measure, but a bad feeling amongst consumers will generally translate to poor sales. Sure, "Just because people scream really loud dont make it so." But all that screaming *could easily* be a sign of weak consumer interest which does "make it so."
Honestly, Blu-ray is a superior technology but if they hadn't wasted their inital opportunity to wow consumers (read: used old MPEG compression tech on the first movies) then they wouldn't be in this spot right now. Blu-ray wasted too many opportunities when they should've mopped the floor with HD-DVD, especially when HD-DVD all but lost their first mover advantage by delaying everything 6-8 months in the first place.
No one really knows what will happen in the end, but as of now, there is no compelling reason to adopt *either* format for me personally.
@ Dec 7th 2006 2:15PM
Hey Prof, stop being a NintenChimp.. monkey see, monkey do.
Erik Novak @ Dec 7th 2006 2:19PM
adding on to what #9 said, it's true...Best Buy employees will try to convince you that HD-DVD is crap compared to Blue Ray. I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one who noticed this.
Todd @ Dec 7th 2006 2:20PM
I prefer a device which is capable of playing all the video disc formats. I'll wait and buy an expensive DVD player which can cover Blu-ray, HD DVD, DVD, etc. than buy a game system and still be stuck in the long run.
DojoRacoon @ Dec 7th 2006 2:26PM
Good lord < You are such a tool. First of all Joystiq is a group of bloggers each with their own personal point of view so addressing a post to Joystiq is retarded. You should address it to Justin Murray. Second Justin does not pretend it is the kind of survey where random individuals were asked questions. It specifically states that it is based on discusions on various websites.
Is the disenting opinion usually a little more vocal? Yes, when there is enough to be vocal about. It's kind of sad really Blue Ray is the higher capacity format and would probably do better in the format wars with a less aggressive aproach than Sony is giving it.
Padriac @ Dec 7th 2006 2:28PM
How come Best Buy doesn't carry ANY HD-DVD players, but they have Four different Blu-Ray players? I know they used to carry HD-DVD players, and they still carry the discs, but where I live, which is Los Angeles (aka a MAJOR market) HD-DVD players are MIA. Best Buy sucks, but this is going to send the message that Blu-Ray is the new thing and HD-DVD is already dead.
And no, this is not because the HD-DVD players sold out. I asked. What's going on here?
KaneRobot @ Dec 7th 2006 2:28PM
I do agree with the "if you want it, great, if not, we don't make you buy it" philosophy of Microsoft, and I do prefer HD-DVD over Blu-Ray. However, I'm not going to say Blu-Ray is doomed yet, it's still very early on.
Alan H mentioned it above, but it's worth repeating that stores like Best Buy and Circuit City are pushing Blu-Ray as "it" when it comes to next gen movies. I wish HD-DVD would spend the money to get that kind of presence in retail, I'd feel a lot more confident of HD-DVD's long-term success.
The Wii60 seems to be putting somewhat of a dent in Sony's plans as expected (that is, after Sony put a big dent in the OWN plans), and that can only help HD-DVD (in the 360's case) and hurt Blu-Ray (in the PS3's case).
Steve2 @ Dec 7th 2006 2:29PM
This study just reviewed comments on internet sites about the subject. So it's including a lot of fanboy ranting. And tons who people who don't know their ass from their elbow.
How useful is this info?
Look at comment #2 on this very site:
"I just hope MS will bring some sort of USB-HDMI cable to fully support the 1080p on major brand TVs because im having a hard time looking for flatscreens that support 1080p over vga, or component."
The max data rate of USB 2.0 is 480mpbs. The data rate of HDMI at 1080p is 3gbps. How would you output HDMI data over USB?
If this study were taken today, it would include comments like #2 as "data".
This study means very, very little. It's mostly measuring comments by people who are just taking crap from the sidelines with no actual info to go on.
Marty @ Dec 7th 2006 2:29PM
Obviously there are a large number of factors in the nonacceptance of Blue Ray. DVD is too prolific, and has not been on top for long enough, BRD / HDD players and discs are too expensive to be mainstream, most people do not have HD TV's, Sony trying to force the format on people with the PS3, etc, etc. The list goes on.
As was predicted, Blue Ray is looking to be another abysmal format failure... Why doesn't Sony just stop trying to push formats and focus on things that they actually have success in?
Raskawa @ Dec 7th 2006 2:30PM
#3 - survey can imply a questionairre based survey or as found on dictionary.com it could also imply "to take a general or comprehensive view of or appraise, as a situation, area of study, etc." - i.e. to survey the landscape of something (like the blu-ray vs. hd-dvd acceptance)..
Now PS fanboy, I think you may owe Joystiq an apology..
Gears of War for the win.
Jake C @ Dec 7th 2006 2:32PM
It just doesn't make any sense to form an opinion on what company or format will win a war based on forum chatter. That would be like someone saying the PS3 will be a complete failure just because the pro-Xbox or Wii commenters on certain blogs are louder than others. People that post in forums on topics of technology are a very small minority. Formats like BluRay and HD-DVD are going for the masses.
socrates @ Dec 7th 2006 2:34PM
Whether or not that study is a good one, there's a bigger problem - whether or not people who post on message boards and the like are in any way representative of the general populace. Which, they are not. Nor is what one does and says while on blogs and forums and the like even all that represantitive of the behavior of the poeple ACTUALLY POSTING (The lack of interest in Snakes on a Plane after it was released shows this). A lot of the kids whining the hardest about "forcing" and choice and the like are probably rich spoiled kids who are going to end up with all 3 consoles anyways!
No, there isn't much negative publicity in the real world about BR yet. Sony hasn't yet parlayed the PS3 into public awareness of the good sort's that's going to put BR ahead of the pack...but the opportunity for that is still wide open.
DerekJ @ Dec 7th 2006 2:34PM
Alan-
Sorry to say, but there's no big pro-sony conspiracy going on at best buy. I work there and honestly, the people working just give their opinions. Of course the higher-up's have it in their interest to move the higher margin products, but c'mon man, honestly...
My Best Buy is a lot different, and we're just saying what we think on the subject...
Jason Lynx @ Dec 7th 2006 2:35PM
HD-DVD is a more appropriate name than Blu-Ray Disk.
@ Dec 7th 2006 2:37PM
Hey DodoRacoon, read the post again:
"Consumers are clearly not warming up to Blu-ray."
Umm.. no. The only way you can come to that comclusion is by doing a representative, nation wide survey where you ask people that question. Not by scanning blog and forum posts hounded by vocal Sony-haters. There could be a single person doing all those posts for all we know. The conclusion by Joystiq (yes Joystiq) is full of hate and bears no evidence of research or critical analysis.
Jordan @ Dec 7th 2006 2:37PM
DVD was a revolutionary jump from tape. It really changed everything.
Blu-Ray and HD-DVD, while nice is NOT a revolution, its just a nice upgrade.
Blu-Ray will probably win, but win what exactly no one knows. I am guessing, not much.
Jackson Pritt @ Dec 7th 2006 2:38PM
Doesn't matter which format, consumers aren't willing to switch to EITHER format right now. My parents just switched to DVD four years ago. They aren't ready to go out and re-buy HD-DVD/Blue-Ray versions of all the movies they just re-bought on DVD.
PEOPLE STILL BUY DVD/VHS COMBOS.
Kent Houseman @ Dec 7th 2006 2:39PM
I'm sorry Sony fanboys. I know you guys adore your brand but a lot of people just don't like them. To the point where things associated with the PS3 are not looked at favorably.
Instead of lying to yourselves maybe you should accept it and hope Sony does something about the issue.
Kent Houseman @ Dec 7th 2006 2:39PM
Also, some people here mention that some consumers don't know what they are talking about and don't have all the information. I'd say a LOT of consumers are like that about LOTS of things. Whether you like it or not, there is a good chance these very consumers will decide the fate of the format.
You can look down on them for not knowing what you do, but you better hope Sony tries to go after tjese guys or the format is in trouble (it already is, they have a bunch of snobby fanboys driving gamers away from it)
Marty @ Dec 7th 2006 2:42PM
LOL @ > "Full of hate"? Come now, I don't think they hate anything or anybody here... Just because one format is pulling ahead of others as a consensus of bloggers might indicate, it doesn't mean the world is coming to an end. Honestly, what is your problem? Why would you defend a data storage format so fervently? Do you have some sort of mental disability that prevents you from acting normal? Good grief!
natas @ Dec 7th 2006 2:49PM
PS3 hurting Blu-Ray? Wow what a stupid website Joystiq is. The PS3 is BETTER than any stand alone player out. So most people that own a Blu-Ray player that don't even play games owns a PS3. This is well documented by most audio and video magazines and websites. Do some people prefer HD-DVD sure. How that translates into "PS3 is hurting Blu-Ray acceptance" is laughable. Blu-Ray has the most backing from the industry and that's what's most important.
@ Dec 7th 2006 2:51PM
Hey Marty, where in my posts did i defend BD or say anything negative about HD-DVD? Are you just making stuff up now? Good grief.
I bashing the incredible lack of ability to rationalise simple research principles. Instead of the time to research, think about and scrutinise the study and its flakey methodology, they revert back to their one liners and doom-and-gloom outlook for all things Sony.
Now, do YOU have a mental deficiency that you cant understand that?
Duscrom @ Dec 7th 2006 2:56PM
"This study means very, very little. It's mostly measuring comments by people who are just taking crap from the sidelines with no actual info to go on."
Oh you mean like the average consumer?
While I agree that basing the general consumer populace using internet blogs is somewhat misrepresenting, it holds a point. I don't think, in general, consumers are ready to shift to a new movie format. Remember how well it worked for music? I'd LOVE to hear 5.1 surround sound music.... but SA-CD, and DVD audio, FLOPPED.. (Though SACD appears to be another Sony format shoved into the PS3).
I also strongly feel that pulling the video format war into the console war was the worst thing ever to do. I mean, now it even comes down to Not HD DVD vs. Blu ray.. it's Sony vs Microsoft.
Right now the format war is stupid. Either way you lean, you can't get all your favorite movies. More studios, technically means more possible movies you like, but you're still at a loss to choose. What would I rather watch, Chalie and the chocolate factory, orIce Age 2. Well, i'd rather be able to watch both. Batman Begins or X3..... okay well in that case Batman Begins... but you see what i'm getting at. Though it's looking like just like the Xbox 360 can't do 1080p over component, seems like the PS3 can't do 1080i over component. So, for me, the choice is clearly HD DVD for better compatability.
James Spiers @ Dec 7th 2006 2:58PM
#6 has a point about the name/familiarity aspect. Added to that, if I was looking for a next gen format DVD and the Sony option was either an impossible-to-find-PS3 or a $900 standalone, I'd feel pretty annoyed. Fortunately, Hidef video was as simple as adding a $200 peripheral to my 9 month old 360...not a tough choice really.
DojoRacoon @ Dec 7th 2006 3:02PM
I love trolling the troll. < You missed my point completely I never said this poll was scientific or accurate I simply said that Mr. Murray did not attempt to deceive people as to how the poll was done. And if you paid attention there are bloggers on Joystiq who Skew both ways take Vladamir Cole who seems to have an anti Wii skew or Blake Snow who is on the pro Wii side. There are also people who's opinions tend to have no skew they tell it like they see it. I believe James Ramson-Wiley fits this description. Don't pretend like they are one collective mind.
Pretending that Sony is doing everything right is retarded they have obviously made mistakes, everyone does. Sony lately just seems to make a lot more and acts more arogantly about the mistakes they make. If you really want to help out your beloved brand stop pretending like nothing is wrong. The more they get called out on their mistakes the more likely they are to fix them. If they fix their mistakes everyone wins (except maybe Nintendo and Microsoft).
I do believe this study has some significance probably not as much as Mr. Murray proports. The format wars are far from over though and Sony really missed the chance to do this right and lock up the victory.
Spartacus @ Dec 7th 2006 3:02PM
WHY AN INFORMED CONSUMER WOULD PURCHASE HD-DVD OVER BD:
1. Cost. The HD-DVD players are much cheaper than their BluRay counterparts.
2. Name recognition. As many have stated, HD-DVD as a name makes sense to consumers, BD does not.
3. Picture Quality. Due to compression standards on HD-DVD (VC1), the picture is much better than the old MPEG2 standard usually used on BD. While BD CAN use VC1 encoding, it is not standard, therefore viewing experiences can vary wildly (not a great selling point).
WHY MANUFACTURERS WOULD CHOOSE HD-DVD OVER BD:
1. Cost. HD-DVD's use the same presses that current DVD's do. BD production requires new equipment.
2. The above mentioned reasons for consumers. Companies won't put out BD movies if everyone buys HD-DVD's.
WHY MANUFACTURERS WOULD CHOOSE BD OVER HD-DVD:
1. Piracy protection. BD currently enforces more restrictions on their discs (this is bad for end consumers by the way).
2. Strong armed by other companies. Sony and others have a bit of sway over many influential companies as they DO own a chunk of the movie industry as well as being incahoots with 2 other major companies on the development of BD technology. They won't give up easily and are prepared to buy their way to acceptance.
------------
Do all consumers a favor and choose HD-DVD. Here's an online petition if you're so inclined...
http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/HD_DVD_Studio_Support
mietha CAG @ Dec 7th 2006 3:04PM
There is one major added advantage to the 360's set-up. It didn't even really occur to me how cool it was until I'd been using it for a few weeks. With the duel-drive set-up, you can have a game and a movie in the system at the same time, and switch between the two. It doesn't seem like much, but I constantly will switch from gaming to watching a movie or vice versa, and never even have to get out of my chair. Yes, I'm lazy, but dammit, I love being able to do that.
flyNN @ Dec 7th 2006 3:05PM
RE: Sony's (proprietary) format reputation-
BetaMax lost to VHS despite better picture & features due to lack of industry adoption.
MiniDisc died and never even stood a chance due to 0% industry adoption.
even Memory Stick & Pro Duo only have legs to stand on due to PSP and other Sony devices like Dig Cameras and VAIO comps.
Blu-Ray is technologically superior, but unless every digital device you own is Sony made, you will use Blu-Ray less than HD-DVD... guaranteed.
TopaZ @ Dec 7th 2006 3:06PM
I love the Blu-Ray technology, but yes Sony has done many things wrong. First of all, if the reported manufacturing cost of the Blu-Ray drive really is under $200 (as reported previously), then hurry up and get a standalone on the market for under $400 and take a bite out of standalone HD-DVD sales! No one is buying the $899 Samsung standalones. Also, Blu-Ray burners work great but they are also abusively-priced ($800-1000).
microdot @ Dec 7th 2006 3:12PM
how is this useful AT ALL? it proves exactly dick other than those that dont like sony, cry a lot online.
if message boards and internet posts were an indication of anything... then snakes on a plane would have been the box office smash of the millenium... the segway would be in every home and office... and star wars kid would be an internationally known comic genius.
internet != life, nor can you even gauge off of it. we would all be choking each other to death on the streets if you could.
Regula Oblique @ Dec 7th 2006 3:14PM
I just bought a PS3 and will buy some blu-ray's with it, they look good and I know im getting true 1080p with my native 1080p tv...I think bluray will win in the long run, i have a 360 also but refuse to buy the hd dvd attachment because its pointless you cant do 1080p or component wires for movies (only games which is still upscaled)and if you attach the vga cord the colors are all washed out, but my ps3 displays all my blu-rays spectacularly
Franky Digital @ Dec 7th 2006 3:15PM
@ Steve2: "This study means very, very little. It's mostly measuring comments by people who are just taking crap from the sidelines with no actual info to go on."
I totally agree with you. However, I realize that said people compose the bulk of the buying market. Welcome to reality. Nice to meet you.
emmzee @ Dec 7th 2006 3:21PM
Some of the comments above have hit on the real reason that the PS3 is slowing Blu-ray adoption. Are people going to buy a separate Blu-ray player if they can get a PS3 for less money that includes a Blu-ray player? Heck no. But there's currently no PS3's available. So most people will quite reasonably sit back and wait for more PS3's.
fester @ Dec 7th 2006 3:26PM
Firstly, the name blu-ray is just wrong for wide mainstream commercial acceptance. It means nothing to the consumers brought up on DVD and it just appeals to futuristic techno-geeks.
Secondly HD-DVD *IS* currently better performing and more warmly recieved, the only fly in the ointment is the film studios and all the politics of companies involved with Sony that is making it harder for HD-DVD to get everyone on board (in other words Sony are once again trying to put a stranglehold on the market for the sake of a proprietary format).
Thirdly, I love the look/cost of the HD-DVD add on for my xbox360 but I too WANT a HDMI connection on it (not for debatable "improved picture" but for a few other reasons)
Simply put if MS can bring out a HDMI cable for the 360 then I will be a very hamper camper. :)
Spence @ Dec 7th 2006 3:26PM
There's a one word reason why blu-ray will win (besides PS3): Porn. Vivid is going to be making movies on blu-ray only for the foreseeable future.
DBX00 @ Dec 7th 2006 3:28PM
It's time you guys got a little history lesson. Sony sponsored formats that have become industry standards (not including parts that have been implemented in larger devices)
1)3.5 inch floppy disks
2)Compac Disc
3)Video8 format (camcorders back in the late 80's)
4)S/PDIF (Sony-Philips digital interface format; ie. optical audio cable connections)
5)MiniDisc (all you have to do is go anywhere else in the world and you'd know why; if you're too young to know)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony
Rootbeer @ Dec 7th 2006 3:29PM
WHY AN INFORMED CONSUMER WOULD SWITCH TO EITHER HD-DVD OR BD OVER DVD:
1. More concerned with ability to count individual blades of grass in movie scene than with storyline
2. 5.1 surround sound inadequate; must have 7.1
3. Enjoys spending money
WHY AN INFORMED CONSUMER WOULD STAY WITH DVD INSTEAD OF GOING TO HD-DVD OR BD:
1. 480p image is "good enough"
2. Already owns DVD-compatible hardware
3. Tens of thousands of titles already available
wolvie75 @ Dec 7th 2006 3:31PM
To use Sony's reasoning as to why they're going to win console game. "Brand Recognition" is one of the main points Sony says it's going to sell alot of PS3s.
This can also be said of HD-"DVD". Consumers know what "DVD"s are. And buy them in droves. They trust what the product is.
Many of them will wonder what "Blu-ray" is.
Also, like the console gaming arena (PS2), the current generation (DVD) will be the choice of people for probably a few more years. Unless studios stop supporting the format altogether.
bubbastump @ Dec 7th 2006 3:31PM
I have voted with my pocket book. I purchased the HD-DVD add on for the 360 and started a Netflix subscription and am renting pretty much only HD-DVD's.
If Microsoft shoved the HD-DVD drive in with the console at launch last year...I probably wouldn't have been able to afford a 360 in the first place. Breaking up the cost and not forcing it down my throat in the end is what one me over to HD-DVD...Ironic...isn't it.
DBX00 @ Dec 7th 2006 3:34PM
Rootbeer
You don't own a HDTV, do you? The picture quality on large screens is DRAMATICALLY better. If for no other reason, the improvement in picture quality alone is enough.
1) Improved picture quality
2) One disc high definition television show seasons
Ndric @ Dec 7th 2006 3:34PM
Just let one fail already.