Israeli military D&D 'Do Ask, Don't Tell'
by Alexander Sliwinski 
{ Dec 12th 2006 at 9:20AM }
We preface this piece by saying it is very old (2005), but still a good topic for discussion. If somebody is reading this in Israel -- because we know many of you are -- and has an update, we'll be sure to note. GamePolitics found this article from YNet confirming that Israeli citizens entering the Israeli Defense Force (IDF) who admit to playing Dungeons & Dragons are "automatically given low security clearance." Israel has a policy of mandatory service in the military.Unlike the US policy of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" towards gays in the military, the Israeli army actively asks if incoming members take part in a role-playing lifestyle. A security official says, "One of the tests we do, either by asking soldiers directly or through information provided us, is to ask whether they take part in the game ... If a soldier answers in the affirmative, he is sent to a professional for an evaluation, usually a psychologist."
The IDF defends the policy by saying that D&D players are "detached from reality and susceptible to influence." Of course, D&D players interviewed for the piece are aware of the IDF policy and keep their gaming quiet out of fear they may lose status or clearance. We'd like to know if this policy applies to online RPGs as well, considering this article was written before the rise of World of Warcraft. It's such a strange basis to discriminate on, and taking into account American military discrimination in just the last 75 years we have no right to judge, but it is interesting to see what different armed forces get uppity about.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
BklynKid @ Dec 12th 2006 1:04PM
Detached from reality is probably an understatement.
Unimental @ Dec 12th 2006 9:29AM
Apparently they don't want soldiers attempting to "roll for damage" in the middle of a firefight.
Nice work fitting in an unrelated pic of hot war-babes, as well.
minus_273 @ Dec 12th 2006 9:52AM
Its not discrimination when you are evaluated based on something you do rather than who you are. Its the same as turning someone down for a job because you think they are a pervert, incompetent or stupid. People are turned down every day for jobs because of their personal character and thats just the way it should be.
Also, get your info straight, not all israelis have to serve in the military.
Breserk @ Dec 12th 2006 9:41AM
I'm from Israel and I was asked if I play D&D in May, when I was first ordered to come to qualification tests. Also, I was asked what I like to do with friends, how many friends I have, what type of women I like, what movies I prefer, what's my favourite musical style, which is my favourite sport, how much I exercise, whether people who are too nice make me mad, whether I like visual arts, what's a father's role in the family and many other things that seem completely and utterly detached from actual military service. There's even a notorious 300-question psychological test that everybody trying to qualify to more demanding units must take.
These are all psychological tests meant to qualify people to drafting, and to tell whether they can stand the pressure of military enrollment.
The main reason the IDF is so strict with psychological testing is because it's mandatory to serve in the military (ages 18-20 for women, 18-21 for men) so if some soldier has a nervous breakdown and shoots himself in the head with the weapon the military gave him (my best friend's brother actually did that), there's no one to blame but the government since that soldier was forced to draft. That's why the testing's so robust. In fact, qualifying to different military divisions can take even a year and a half, starting in the middle of the 11th grade.
Joystiq editors, please do add a note to the article that states that while what's said in the article is correct, it's not as if D&D receives special treatment over other hobbies. It's one of the questions asked, not the question asked.
Ranaul @ Dec 12th 2006 9:45AM
Why are they talking about the Israeli military... its not like there is any fighting going on over there.
Well I'm off to Faerun, I think some important stuff is going to happen there this week.
dirtyd @ Dec 12th 2006 9:47AM
Is it just me or are chicks with assult rifles hot?
/growl
zAlphaOmega @ Dec 12th 2006 9:48AM
dont get me started on those israeli murderers.
White Rose Duelist @ Dec 12th 2006 9:51AM
BklynKid, how is roleplaying any different from video games in terms of being able to separate fantasy from reality? If anything, the latter would be more likely to bridge the gap - any kills in a tabletop game are either removing pieces from a board (like chess) or totally in the player's imagination. Video game show you the results directly.
I don't believe that there is any real connection between either RPGs or video games except in individuals who were already "detached from reality", but for people at a video game blog to criticize roleplayers for being unbalanced is the height of hypocrisy.
GTV @ Dec 12th 2006 9:54AM
Is that you Mr. Ahmadinejad?
Bradfo @ Dec 12th 2006 9:54AM
@2 - Being an avid D&D player myself, I find it a little offensive that I am assumed to be "detached from reality" just because I'll spend a night rolling dice once a week. It's certainly more social that some kid sitting in his mom's basement playing WOW for 10 hours a night so he can participate in the latest raid.
D&D is just a game. In my opinion the greatest game; but just a game nonetheless. An individual's interest therein should not deem him less capable of handling responsibilty in any way. I have a wife, two kids, a good job. Not all people who spend a little time role playing are introverts. That's just like saying that anyone who plays an FPS is going to shoot up a school.
WizarDru @ Dec 12th 2006 9:54AM
"Joystiq editors, please do add a note to the article that states that while what's said in the article is correct, it's not as if D&D receives special treatment over other hobbies. It's one of the questions asked, not the question asked."
What other hobbies automatically qualify you for lowered security clearance for playing them? The accusation is made that they have 'weak personalities' and that they are 'detached from reality' and 'easily influenced'. Considering that D&D is, by and large, particularly popular among members of the armed forces, both in the U.S., Israel and elsewhere, this seems rather silly. The article also fails to address WoW and lumps LARPers together with regular role-players...and which may be the source of the discrepancy.
This is, as noted, pretty old news, though.
WizarDru @ Dec 12th 2006 10:01AM
"Also, get your info straight, not all Israelis have to serve in the military."
Sure, just the Jewish and Druze ones who don't qualify for an exemption. :P I think you're kinda splitting hairs, there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_military#Service_and_manpower
brian @ Dec 12th 2006 10:02AM
@5
yea, they're pretty hot, and deadly too
Breserk @ Dec 12th 2006 10:06AM
A few misconceptions that I must correct:
* It is mandatory to serve in the military over here. The only exceptions are if physical/mental health doesn't allow, if you're Arabic (since the military mostly engages Arab Palestinians), if you're extremely religious to the point of studying religion all day (argh, I hate that rule), or if you're married (almost nobody's married at this age, though).
* Saying you play D&D does not automatically lower your security rating. If you play D&D you are sent to talk with a psychiatrist, and only if the expert finds you detached from reality will your security clearance be lowered.
WizarDru- the 2nd notation is meant especially for you to read. I agree with most people here, though- D&D should not raise any red flags. Playing video games definitely doesn't (it actually helps! Since I told the recruiters that I play flight simulators, my chances of being a pilot is better), so why should D&D?
Also of note, that YNet, the source website, is actually owned by a daily Israeli newspaper, so it's not like all citizens here hate D&D. It's only the army's stupid leadership.
jc @ Dec 12th 2006 10:07AM
"detached from reality and susceptible to influence" sounds like a prerequisite for military life.
Maybe it's just me, but being trained to murder and blindly follow orders from some fat General that hasn't seen duty since Eisenhower was in office really doesn't sound like sanity at it's finest.
Mind you, I know a few guys that still play D&D... and it gives me the shivers to think of them running around with live weapons.
EMPIRE @ Dec 12th 2006 10:28AM
They know nerds and geeks are intelligent and think for themselves, and would more likely than not, refuse to carry out immoral or unethical orders (which I'm sure happens a lot in the Israeli army).... THAT'S why they discriminate D&D players.
Breserk @ Dec 12th 2006 10:21AM
jc, murder and blindly follow is hardly what any soldier in military in any democratic country does. Newly recruited soldiers are actually educated to completely disobey orders which are illegal beyond doubt, like hitting a tied-up prisoner or killing somebody who's no threat.
Steve @ Dec 12th 2006 11:03AM
>> American military discrimination in just the
>> last 75 years
What is this place, the New York Times?
If you want to talk about military discrimination in the past 75 years when it comes to a discussion about Isreal, I think Germany would be a more appropriate choice. (Maybe my sentence contained my answer when I said "I think" because PC anti-americanism doesn't require any of that.)
jennie @ Dec 12th 2006 10:38AM
Game enthusiasts are aware of their problematic image in the army and prefer to maintain their anonymity. Many of them are from the former Soviet Union, where the game is very popular.
James @ Dec 12th 2006 10:36AM
I used to work at a Gamekeeper awhile back as an assistant manager and I go to Gencon every year. I will say that there is a decent amount of D&D players that are a bit detached as you say... alright, alot of them. The people that just play for fun and don't take it too seriously are far and few between. Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing D&D or any RPG for that matter (I play D&D/Star Wars/Shadowrun). But I am willing to admit that a lot of them "just ain't right".
Also, notice that the article doesn't say they automatically get stationed lower in the military, they just have to get checked out by a shrink first.
Curtis @ Dec 12th 2006 10:41AM
So, accroding to Breserk (http://www.joystiq.com/2006/12/12/israeli-military-dandd-do-ask-dont-tell/#c2902324) playing D&D doesn't automatically get you a lower rating, it just gets you sent to the shrink. Makes sense since all the D&D players I know carefully tread the line between reality and batshit crazy. I wouldn't want a person like that on the battlefield since they're probably more likely to crack while being shot at.
Breserk @ Dec 12th 2006 10:40AM
Empire, had you read the comments, you'd realise I said this: "Newly recruited soldiers are actually educated to completely disobey orders which are illegal beyond doubt, like hitting a tied-up prisoner or killing somebody who's no threat."
However, you will never read this comment. My time on this is not wasted, though, because some people actually research and read, like James (comment no. 18) who's actually done the smart thing and read into the details before he decided his opinion on the subject.
Jennie, are you from Israel?
waxc3 @ Dec 12th 2006 10:47AM
those two girls are indeed hot.
fanan89 @ Dec 12th 2006 10:46AM
I just got a summon (which by the law I must follow) for the 1st classification for the air force in order to be a pilot. I hope I wont have to fill in 300 questions about my gaming habits and such.
I had an interview last week but I wasn't asked if I play any role games.
Dave @ Dec 12th 2006 10:46AM
Wouldn't being "detached from reality" automatically make you a perfect candidate for fighting a war? I think I'm fairly well-grounded--to the point that I wouldn't want to fight in a war in which I'm required to help spread fear, pain and death.
ssgtakeo @ Dec 12th 2006 11:00AM
JD, if you have no connection with the military I'd expect you to say something like that.
If soldiering was something a robot could do, we'd have robots doing them.
Everyone from a fire team leader all the way up to a General is on their own to do the right thing. If they don't, well... that's what we have the UCMJ for.
I know a few RPG players and I would only let them have control of a weapon if I could have my sidearm touching their skull when they took possession.
Mat Schwartz @ Dec 12th 2006 11:06AM
Ya actually Joystiq if you could avoid gaming news alltogether and maybe just start posting about the two girls featured in todays post (specifically the fair one on the right kthx) it might be best for all of us. Like it would still bring joy..um..to our stiqs...er..
Savok @ Dec 12th 2006 11:04AM
Bloody mouth breathing lefties.
I know some D&D players, seriously, you wouldn't want to give them a gun. Stereotypes come about because to some degree, they're true. The scary obsessive nerds are among us.
J.Goodwin @ Dec 12th 2006 11:21AM
I hope you guys and gals of age keep this in mind and start playing D&D immediately. Could be useful when the draft starts up again.
Dan @ Dec 12th 2006 11:36AM
Umm...what did you say? Oh sorry, was gawking at hot female soldiers.
If I were the military I'd be worried more about roleplaying types not knowing how to act around attractive members of the opposite sex.
Snowman @ Dec 12th 2006 12:02PM
pic reminds me of cramps' song "bikini girls with machine guns"
JJ @ Dec 12th 2006 12:19PM
This is my rifle
this is my gun
this is for fighting
this is for fun.
If thats what the soldiers look like now, I am enlisting today.
RAMX @ Dec 12th 2006 12:43PM
never EVER question Isreali policies. EVER!
Omer van Kloeten @ Dec 12th 2006 1:08PM
I'm from Israel and I'll re-iterate what I already said on slashdot when the story was published there back in March '05 [1]: The article and the army do not mean D&D as in the classic sense of a bunch of people around the table with a few dice, but rather RD&D, where people go around waving plastic swords and have make-believe lives IRL. Those people are just weird ;P
I used to play D&D as a teen and I know a lot of the people who were with me in the army as computer programmers were heavy into D&D either as teens or even as soldiers. I also know quite a few who played Neverwinter Nights and World of Warcraft to excess, but have the same security clearance as me and the only thing about it that bothered them with their work was the lack of sleep :)
You should understand that even if you live in your own little world, the army will kick your ass and get you back in line.
Oh, and another thing. I read the comments here and saw a few people who started Israel-bashing with "you guys are murderers" and the likes. I know it's great to feel superior to someone without knowing what they're going through. Please don't. If you really want to talk about this, go read and learn some more about the entire conflict's history and the current affair from an objective source first. Then I'll be happy to debate you.
[1] http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=141890&cid=11892684
James @ Dec 12th 2006 1:27PM
Also, there needs to be a named Internet Law (like Godwin's, etc.) on how any mention of Israel in an open forum (like Joystiq) will immediately descend into a discussion of Middle Eastern politics, and from there into shouts of "IT'S THE JOOOOS FAULT" and anti-military pabulum, losing any trace of the original topic. Seriously, when will Joystiq learn?
Savok @ Dec 12th 2006 1:42PM
#34
Oh God, LARPers? (Live Action RolePlay)
God I'd be worried about them as well, it'd be like arming furries, and no one should ever arm a furry.
And ignore the mouth breathers Omer, years of propaganda have dissolved whatever ability to think freely they may of once had.
moondance @ Dec 12th 2006 1:45PM
Hi,
I am from Israel. I servered in the army in the 90's so not sure it is accurate but all my friends said we played DND and all of us were given very high security clearance.
DeezNuts420 @ Dec 12th 2006 2:35PM
How about a link to the website of the M4 Hotties!!!!
samfish @ Dec 12th 2006 2:17PM
And by "detached from reality" they mean "not as susceptipal to hive mentality"...which is crucial to being a good soldier.
There's lots I'd like to say about those bulldozing blood drinkers from Israel...but I won't. I don't feel like getting pissed off yet today.
Stephen King @ Dec 12th 2006 2:27PM
#5: http://www.mahal2000.com/information/background/women.jpg
Senor Lebesgue @ Dec 12th 2006 2:36PM
"5. dont get me started on those israeli murderers."
Don't get me started on your ilk who ignore the horror that Israelis have to live with every day and blame them for every bad thing that happens in the region.
JFink @ Dec 12th 2006 2:35PM
14.
"Mind you, I know a few guys that still play D&D... and it gives me the shivers to think of them running around with live weapons."
Well as someone who was in the military and who used to play D&D with others that were in my unit, I'm kinda offended by that. Not all D&D'ers are completely mental and live in another world. Plus we DO know how to talk with women and even *GASP* get laid.
WizarDru @ Dec 12th 2006 2:39PM
Savok said: "Bloody mouth breathing lefties.
I know some D&D players, seriously, you wouldn't want to give them a gun. Stereotypes come about because to some degree, they're true. The scary obsessive nerds are among us."
Dude, the first rule of trolling is to decide WHO you're going to troll. Try again.
Breserk said: "* Saying you play D&D does not automatically lower your security rating. If you play D&D you are sent to talk with a psychiatrist, and only if the expert finds you detached from reality will your security clearance be lowered."
Well, with the qualifications listed afterwards, this seems to make more sense.
jc @ Dec 12th 2006 2:44PM
Omar van Kloeten wrote: "Oh, and another thing. I read the comments here and saw a few people who started Israel-bashing with "you guys are murderers" and the likes."
Seeing that no one else mentioned the word "murder" but me: "being trained to murder and blindly follow orders from some fat General that hasn't seen duty since Eisenhower was in office really doesn't sound like sanity at it's finest", I will respond...
...ummm, where did you get Israel bashing from that? Maybe I should have used the the word 'kill' instead of 'murder', but really I was trying to make a point about the sanity of people that justify the killing of other people (and blindly following orders).
Sorry to have offended you, please don't shoot me.
-p.s. In all honesty, I am pretty proud of joystiq'ers not turning this into a political debate / flame-a-rama...
jc @ Dec 12th 2006 2:55PM
JFink, unless you are one of the friends I was talking about, you need not take offense... and if you are, you would in all honesty, agree with me.
Again, no offense intended. Please don't shoot me.
Omer van Kloeten @ Dec 12th 2006 3:02PM
jc (#44) - I was talking about comment #5. Also, I wasn't offended by any comment. I am, however, irritated that some (not you - I re-read your comment) decide to base their entire position on only that half of the truth they are comfortable with.
Shal @ Dec 12th 2006 3:01PM
They have the Internet in Israel? I thought they lived in the sand like all the other backwards middle-east countries.
jc @ Dec 12th 2006 3:17PM
oh... I didn't notice number 5.
So much for the proud of joystiq'ers statement.
OneTopJob6 @ Dec 12th 2006 4:20PM
My, my.... look who's come out of the woodwork. The right-wing termites who will find any topic related to the mideast and use it to bash the New York Times and leftists. Goodness, don't you have much better to do?
TzaHa"L is a conscriptory army, and with good reason. However, there's the natural concern that an involuntary service may lead to tensions - just look at fraggin' in 'Nam, for goodness sakes. You've got to screen for the crazies who might threaten a unit's cohesiveness, otherwise known as a process called discrimination. Rational discrimination, at that. As opposed to the discriminatory policies we had with gays here in the good ol' USA.
The problem arises from the equating of D&D geekdom with mental imbalance. It's likely a remnant of the anti-D&D hysteria we had in the late 70s and early 80s, exemplified in certain movies, books, and Chick Tracts (and yes they got those in Israel too). So D&D fans have to either live with it or take a stand for themselves against the leadership. Considering Israel's perpetual state of turmoil, I think Israeli roleplayers are better off living with it.
SE @ Dec 12th 2006 4:31PM
funny thing here, I'm willing to bet that more americans think the girl on the right is hotter, while more (maybe not most) will think the girl on the left is hotter... discuss :)
ps: I am israeli, living abroad, so I have never served, and yah there are a few people who get out of the military (some by pretending to be unstable, some actually are) just as a random sampling from my friends