Political groups angry over Left Behind game

Dunno if anyones noticed, but christianity in itself is religious intolerance. The whole point of christianity is that if you aren't a christian, you're going to hell.

So don't be mad at them for making a game about what they believe, even if their belief is a [i]little[/i] bigoted.

"Is an intolerant message enough to justify restricting a game's sale?"

No. But I do have to say that whatever message they were going for was definitely lost in translation. If they really wanted to turn some heads, they would have had Christians escaping from the oppression of tyrannical would-be Christians just like, oh, every other point in history.

After all, not everyone who says they're a Christian actually is one (or acts like one should, I should say).

Christian jihad unite! lol (I'm joking.)
While we're at it - why not make a game where we invade sovereign countries under false pretenses so we can steal their oil? Oh, wait...

First off, the Campaign to Defend the Constitution is a group based on the false premise that the Separation of Church and State appears in the US Constitution (It does not and only appeared as an idea of Thomas Jefferson in a letter to a friend).

Second, you see the word "Progress" in the Christian Alliance for Progress? That means Liberal. Its such a blatant cover-up. Not to mention they are one of Hillary Clinton's supporters and that's never good.

Basically, what I'm saying is this political wrangling over a game people don't have to buy is just crap. Wal-mart shouldn't cave in to these thugs just because it offends people.

And you know what, if it was a game where you had to convert people to Islam instead of Christianity, I bet these two groups wouldn't be saying s**t.

2 - Sorry but you are incorrect - i am not much of a catholic but i am technically one- many christian faiths believe that as long as you believe in a God and are a good person you will go to heaven.

@Sidus Moor

If the game were Muslims converting or killing non-Muslims, these same groups would be complaining about the negative portrayal of Muslims as bloodthirsty.

And I would think Christian groups should be just as offended at this portrayal of Christians. Christians have not said "convert or die" for a thousand years.

Miniboss,

You are correct. Thats why I take umbrage when people quote me statistics like "80% of americans are Christians".

Trent,

So does every other major world religion, except buddhism, and buddhism is more a philosophy than a religion.

This game is based on the books about a time that has not yet come to pass. I don't expect any of you to understand the premise. Those who get it, get it. Those who don't, never will.

"And you know what, if it was a game where you had to convert people to Islam instead of Christianity, I bet these two groups wouldn't be saying s**t."

Your straw man is burning, Sidus. The fact is that there exists no such game and what you "bet" doesn't amount to a hill of s**t, as you so eloquently put it.

I would be interested to see what pundits like Jack Thompson et al have to say about this game. Its hard to dismiss the fact that if you believe that Quake is too violent and should be banned that you should also believe that this game should suffer the same fate.

But I digress: the fact is that games like Quake, Doom, etc. may share a violent quality with this game, but what really sets this game apart from the others is that it requires you to kill people who aren't Christians- so the question becomes, where do we draw the line? Which games should be banned and which are "free speech?"

To #6 - the Captain:

Actually, you are mistaken. Many 'Christian' groups intimidate or pressure people into converting to their own specific religion or sect of Christianity. Look at the use of missionaries in Africa and Latin America even as little as 50 years ago. Even today religious-based aid groups have been know to tie in aid relief with conversions and religious experience. It may not be 'conversion by the sword', but it's close enough!

I heard the targets included are the Catholics....
So this is a Christian game which considers Catholics are not Christians?

Yeah i agree with you all, if a game had muslims killing christians they would be fine! This game doesn't represent christians, we wont hold a gun to your head and say convert or die like some religions...

"2 - Sorry but you are incorrect - i am not much of a catholic but i am technically one- many christian faiths believe that as long as you believe in a God and are a good person you will go to heaven."

That is correct, but its not a biblical belief. Even the catholic doctrine is that belief in Jesus as the savior only gives you Hope of salvation, and that being a good person is required on top of that.

Protestants (by and large) believe that faith in Jesus as your personal savior is enough to get you a spot in heaven, but being a good productive Christian increases your rewards there. I don't really like that belief, because it kinda creates a "class" system in heaven.

tevetorbes,

JT is against the game.

Again, this isn't a game about Christians NOW battling non-christians NOW. Its about post rapture Christians (meaning that its painfully obvious that the Christians were right all along) fighting a physical and spiritual war against the armies and ideologies of the anti-christ, who is literally Satan incarnate. I really don't see how this is bad, unless you WANT Satan to win.

My family is catholic, I'm forced to go to church and I literally hate the catholic and baptist religions. I would love nothing more than a secular government with all personal freedom intact, but with our president being a religious freak, he decides the American government "supports marriage between a man and a woman." Guess what? The government should only see marriage as a contract, nothing else.

The separation between church and state should not be ignored, or we will literally end up like a Muslim country, but with Christianity ruling our government. And yes, Christianity is just as violent and evil as Islam.

By the way, I am a die hard libertarian. Libertarian, Liberty!

This game is bigoted in about the same way that the Caesar franchise is bigoted (in Caesar you play as the forefathers of Western civilization against barbarians, Africans, and Asians).

Frankly, apocalyptic visions/narratives are supremely interesting and would make excellent premises for games. I would love to play well-made games set in interpretations of Christian, Incan, Greek, and other apocalyptic narratives (Nostradamus). I think that not very many games have been made around classical apocalyptic themes mostly out of fear of negative knee-jerk reactions from political groups that exist for the sole purpose of reacting. Instead, many games feature their own, often uninspiring, quasi-apocalyptic storylines. I had hoped that Left Behind was going to avoid negative PR and perhaps pave the way for games based on apocalyptic visions in the future. Maybe it still will, I can hope.

Has anyone considered looking at the game's website to see what they have to say in defense of all these allegations? I have: http://www.leftbehindgames.com/pages/controversy.htm. Take a look at that page before you get too upset.

Also, there's a difference between fighting against Muslims and fighting against the minions of the Antichrist. This game isn't advocating a crusade against any particular religion, per se, other than the one these people believe will one day be the dominant religion of the world and stand in direct opposition to the forces of God (good vs. evil).

Besides, whether or not you agree with the message, the truth is that if this game is anything like the movies it'll stink.

Sidus Moor:

Technically, you are correct. The words "Separation of Church and State never appear in the Constitution.

HOWEVER, this does:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

Translation: Congress(and Govt. in general) have no business sticking their nose into supporting or denying religion.

In other words: Separation of church and state. Jefferson's letter was answering a question put to him by the Danbury Baptist Association, and the phrase "wall of separation between church and state," is the shorthand version of the Establishment Clause.

That being said, I'm all for the game being made. It doesn't strike me as being any more hateful or intolerant than some of the GTA games. Or Jack Thompson.

And I think the irony would be delicious if some kid went on a "heathen converting rampage," killing people. Horrifying, but it'd be a nice slap in the face of all the people who criticized violent video games up until this point.

I may be mistaken, but, isn't the game about what happens after the rapture?

So in that fictional reality where the rapture has taken place, the beliefs of Christianity would have been proven correct. Your goal then would be to advance the plot to a point where the "good guys" who, because the game is based off literature based off a religion are the Christians.

In that apocalyptic future it would seem that everything would be black and white, either for or against the Christian depiction of God.

Additionally, as far as I understand you fight the forces of the Antichrist as opposed people the conservative Christians consider "sinners".

I dont see why this game, that has sold poorly and been reviewed poorly deserves such attention.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_Behind:_Eternal_Forces

looking at it here it doesn't seem so offensive.

I'm not for or against this game, I'm against censorship, especially ill-informed censorship.

@Thrall

Are you a libertarian in the same way that Bill Maher claims to be a libertarian?

Well, in Civ IV you can nuke all people who aren't Christian, raze their cities, and send St Paul to build the Church of the Nativity in a new city built on their ashes, so in perspective this isn't *totally* the worst.

@Thrall

I also like how you think Bush is the one that says marriage should be restricted to the union between man and woman. Like he invented the idea.

IIRC, I think it was the Jews that first posited this unique idea several thousand years ago. And it seems to work out pretty well for them. Prior to the Jews' novel idea that a dude should not be with another dude, homosexuality was commonplace.

So, before you blame Bush for this one, remember - it's the Jews' fault! Without their CRAZY ideas, we'd still be able to frequent the gay bath houses that were so prevalent in Rome and Greece.

I haven't played the game yet, though I have heard good things about the books. My basic problem with them is that they take a lot of liberties with the prophesies in the book of Revelation. But, it's speculative fiction, so they can do that as long as they don't claim to be Scriptural truth.

If you want to read some EXCELLENT Christian fiction, though, check out CS Lewis's Space Trilogy (Out of the Silent Planet, Perelandra, and That Hideous Strength).

What bothers me about the game is that it seems to be an inaccurate portrayal of Christian values, which is very confusing to nonbelievers. The Bible teaches in 1 Corinthians, Chapter 8, about "food sacrificed to idols" which is an analogy for these problems. If we do something that appears blatantly non-Christian (like eating food sacrificed to idols, or creating a video game featuring lots of violence), then we should be aware that the world is watching. Because while we may understand the differences, others are confused about Christianity, and led to believe we are hypocrites.

I'm more intrigued about this game now than ever before, though. I'd like to see what it's really about (the media does a great job of spinning a story for sensationalist press, but not so great at actually weighing the issues). I'm apprehensive, certainly. But until I play it, and understand it, I shall reserve judgement.

trent:
The Christian teaching is that no one is beyond God's mercy. Also, we are to withhold judgement on non-Christians. The only people we are given the right to judge are other Christians. After all, anyone who claims to be Christian should follow Christ. But, the wages of sin ARE death, so without God's mercy *no* *one* has any hope.

--Branewalker

@5

only way to heaven is through Jesus - John 14:6
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

doing "good deeds" or works is NOT how you get to heaven - Eph 2:8 - 9
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
"

besides, as far as God's concerned your good deeds, or righteousness (concept of what is right) is like "filty rags to him" - Isaiah 64:6

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. "

Im a christian too btw. i just see the hypocracy in the so called "church" and im not scared to point it out.

In before christian bashi--

oh shit

additionally, the entire "end of the world" and rapture concepts of christianity are actually very hotly debated within the religion itself. the viewpoint that the "Left Behind" books portray is the more popular (and dramatic) one. There is another that is simply another interpreatation of the already cryptic book of Revelations.

this is honestly one of those things dont really apply to the core of christianity, which is to live for Jesus. its about living for Jesus, not what happens after you've lived for him. I haven't played the game because I don't like RTS (im horrible at them) but that's the only reason.

The opinion i was presenting was related more to the "message of religious intolerance." statement rather than the game itself. As far as im concerned the game could be an entire rape of the Bible and I'm not gonna care. No one is making me play it.

i agree that there is grace and everyone can be saved, but the core is that you MUST be saved.

that is, if you arent saved, if you dont believe what the Bible says to believe, you are wrong and you are going to hell. its an extremely cynical perspective but it is not wrong.

I don't see what's so offensive, and I'm not Christian at all. Clearly, this game is portraying a scenario where the Christians were correct, and using said premise, the actions of converting/killing the followers of the Antichrist, whatever that is, makes sense.

Whatever Christianity says about me going or not going to hell is immaterial, because I don't believe in it. It amazes me that people are going to these lengths to suppress material that they don't even believe in.

My opinions won't match that of Christian leaders or that of the borg-like collective mind of Hollywood, but I like the sound of a game where you can wipe out narrowminded rock stars and the leader of the earth's most worthless, corrupt, and counterproductive organization. Sounds like it could be a *ahem* HELL of a lot of fun!

For the record, I am a Christian.

There's some good discussion up above, pro and con the game and its creators, but what I think is interesting is that "intolerance" is considered the worst offender here. Wait a minute, what about all that sex and violence we could be wringing our hands about?

Merriam-Webster says "intolerant" is "2 a : unwilling to grant equal freedom of expression especially in religious matters b : unwilling to grant or share social, political, or professional rights"

Christianity (and many other world religions) posit that there is a right and wrong, and that their way is the only way. Saying "I'm right and you're wrong" isn't intolerance. That statement is either true or it isn't. Saying "the world is round" isn't intolerant of people who think it's flat. The definition above talks about the actions that people based on believing they are right.

I'm going to stop now, before I *really* get on my high horse, but I think you get my point. Complain all you like about the game's violence or stereotypes or bad Christian image, but don't criticize it for being intolerant.

About separation of church and state.

The modern interpretation of the 1st amendment was actually enacted in the 30's but a supreme court judge who was a member of the KKK.

Strange that for 150 years, 10 commandments in courthouses were OK, prayer in public schools were everywhere and Christianity was as tied to government as it is tied to the church. I believe the founding fathers meant the 1st amendment to mean exactly what it says:

Congress cannot make a law that establishes a national religion. Congress isn't the schoolboard. Congress isn't the judicial. Congress isn't the President. congress isn't the mayor. Congress isn't a cross symbol on a city's emblem.

Trent. #20, get used to it, the bible is filled with contradictions and hypocrisy and is mostly riddles with metaphors, of a dead language. unfortuantely we have people who take "rapture" literaly. many people. and this game is total trash. perfect example of hypocrisy.

Ahh, the great debate strikes Joystiq

I shall make 3 points

1: 1st off, the concept of the Apocalypse as in revalations is fictitious. The root of the word "Apocalyptic" comes from a Greek term meaning deceptive, cunning speaking, I.E. fictitious and symbolic. John's revelations was rather a veiled or "apocalyptic" stab at Roman society, so veiled and symbolic so he wouldn't get in trouble with the authorities. The best example is the 666 monster, who was supposed to represent Nero (or some other Emperor, but i think it was Nero).

2: More central than anything, Christ preached the concept that God loves you. Hell is for those who wholly reject God, which is not a passive thing, you must willingly accept Sin to go to hell. God will give you the benefit of the doubt, 101% of the time, because he is love

3: They are correct in that Wal-Mart should not yield to these reactionaries, there are less forceful ways to get such misguided ideas as those expressed in the game, such as an anti-Left Below PR campaign. Freedom of expression means you're free to decry that game as much as you want.

arch:

Only someone who hasn't studied scripture would say that it's a text full of contradictions and hypocrisy. Most people who claim this are ill informed and repeat the same "contradictions" that any good Bible scholar can and has refuted and explained. When people don't understand a text it's usually because they haven't yet grasped it's entire content rather than because the text it flawed. I don't pick up a quantum physics book, read a few random chapters and paragraphs, pick out single sentences and then claim that quantum physics is flawed. The same is true with the Bible. It is both a very large and very complicated work of literature, one that has much depth and many layers. It can be excruciatingly detailed in some areas and painfuly vague in others, which is why there are so many sects of Christianity. Rule of thumb:

There should be UNITY in the essentials
LIBERTY in the non-essentials
and CHARITY in all things


As for the game, it's controversial. Welcome to America, where sex, violence and racism are tolerated as are many forms of religion while Christianity is suppressed. Ironic huh?

"I think it was the Jews that first posited this unique idea several thousand years ago. And it seems to work out pretty well for them."

Actually, most Jews in the U.S. are not only pro-gay-marriage libruls, but not only have Reform and Reconstructionist Judaism long ruled in favor of gays actively participating in synagogue life, but now this has become a compelling issue as of late for Conservative Jews. Even in the Orthodox world, separation of church and state takes precedence, especially in light of what state religion does to Jews.

If you're going to use the Chosen's precepts to justify your political agenda, AT LEAST get to know us first.

Look, at best what we're going to end up with is a mediocre game, sold only to the "true believers" who would bash all non-Protestants anyway, even without its exsitance. There's not much to worry about this, other than the fact that it's symptomatic of an existing culture of religious extremism and intolerance.

And stop whining about so-called "anti-Christian" intolerance. You're the frickin' majority in this country, and free to practice your religion - unless one of your precepts is to "use the government to force non-believers to believe".

If this game was called "The Stand" and based on Stephen King's novel, which is basically the same premise, nobody would be upset. The people complaining are a bunch of itiots and are completely glossing over the facts.

@OneTopJob6

Sorry, when I said "Jews," I meant to refer to, you know, Jewish people. I was not referring to whatever you want to call that group of people that call themselves Reform Jews or Reconstructionist Jews or Conservative Jews. The only thing those "Jews" believe in is that Jesus was not the Messiah. The don't keep kosher, they don't keep shabbos, they don't get rid of chumetz for Passover.

But the Jews, you know, the real ones, are completely against gay marriage. How many chassidic Jews read joystiq, that's what I want to know.

The point you should all note is that we are put in an interesting position. We all want to defend video games from being legislated and censored by political groups. Now, a political group has come forward, pointing out that one game is offensive in some way. They are right. So now we are put into the position of either: a) Defending the game, as it is just as protected as every other game as a form of speech; or b) encouraging the pulling of the game and saying that we support the SELECTIVE censoring of games, which would inevitably lead to a more puritan selective process.

You may not like it, but as gamers, we must defend it.

-M

"I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

These books are not even that great. The writing is terrible in the books. And if this game has gotten bad reviews then why mention it at all, eh?

You kill muslims, rock stars, AND sexy Kofi in this game?!!

Holy crap! This sounds awesome!!!!!!1111

I'd even be willing to swallow the semen laced turpentine that is Kirk Cameron teen idol to knock off some unworthy heathens.

I'm not good at all this religious debating, but I would like to point out a few things about the game.

This game is NOT about killing all those who are anti-Christian, or anything like saying "convert or die". The game is purely defensive, you don't even hunt down or try to overthrow those who don't agree. You're only attacking because they attack you first.

Even though you can attack non-believers in the game, it is not encouraged and you get penalized every time you do. The real focus of the game is trying to convert the enemy, not destroy them.

You know what sucks for all you guys is you are seeing the cliche, non-tolerant version of Christianity. When there really is a more loving tolerant kind.

"And stop whining about so-called "anti-Christian" intolerance. You're the frickin' majority in this country, and free to practice your religion - unless one of your precepts is to "use the government to force non-believers to believe"."

Or you know, pray at lunch, in school. IF you're in a "blue" state and do that, you can get suspended and/or expelled for violating "separation of church and state" even though by doing so the school (and thus the gov't) is interfering in the "free excercise" of my religion. There are a few isolated cases of this, but the fact that it happens at all is telling.

Tell me, which religion is most criticized and railed against in america. It isn't Islam, because if I said anything bad about islam being a violent religion, I know a torrent of people will come down here and call me a bigot and ignorant and hateful.

If you say Christianity is more violent (which somebody did), you'll either get no response or people agreeing with you.

Christianity is the most hated religion by non-christians (and even some professing christians) in this country.

@crono141
You are correct on that Christianity is the most hated religion by non-Christians. For some reason non-Christians seem to see only the extremely uptight conservative ones. I can guarantee you that there are better kinds.

If this exact same game were in Arabic instead of English, the game designers would be in Gitmo. But instead, somehow it makes it onto Wal-Mart's shelves? Something so racist and extreme shouldn't be
allowed to even make it to store shelves. Not only does it breed hatred in the children who play it, it also puts the Christian religion in a bad light.

again, all you anti-religion nuts:

If this game was called "The Stand" and based on Stephen King's novel, which is basically the same premise, nobody would be upset. The people complaining are a bunch of idiots and are completely glossing over the facts.

...and btw, did people even have as big a fit about POSTAL?

Regarding Mandarin's question in number 9, I believe there's some mention in the books of the current (or past at the time of the publication) Pope being an anti-Christ.

I'm a devout Catholic myself and, from what I've been able to gather, the whole Left Behind series and Rapture theology is something rather recent (within the last 15 years) and is a Protestant thing. The Catholic church itself doesn't put any stock in the ideas contained within that series of books.

As for the game itself, yeah...If you're going to try and make a game that focuses on the Christian faith, I think that converting or killing supposedly heathens is a bad way to go about it. I really have no desire to reward their efforts with my money. :)

PS: Excellent points in #30, Kahn

Yes, I can be just as bigoted towards atheists as they can be against me... But the question of the matter is, "what's the point?" I see no point in fighting against them. As far as I can see it, the atheists or "enlightened ones" can think whatever they want! I just love how they think they know so much, yet they often times don't have a clue what they're talking about from a logical standpoint.

It's funny how we're targeted for things that we're not even responsible for that happened hundreds of years ago. I don't think any of that matters anymore, and besides -- it would only matter if it was a message that was preached in the Bible, but alas, it's not.

Also, it's a stupid game. C'mon guys; I know atheists have better things to do than to attack Christians and the games that they make: Like talk about how smart they are to people that don't care, work on reducing the population to save the animals, talk about how wonderful homosexuality is, or bitch and moan about how the president believes in God. Of course, it's not like we've ever had any other president that believed in God... *cough*LincolnWashingtonJefferson*cough*

the funny thing is that the people left on earth to fight the minions of the Antichrist are by definition not Christians in the first place, otherwise they'd have been taken up during the rapture. So the argument is moot.