PS3 scaling functionality unearthed
Warning: a truly awful pun awaits you at the end of this post.In updating the software development kit for PS3 developers, Sony has enabled scaling functionality that was previously thought to be non-existent in the base hardware. An interesting and rather technical article at Beyond3D explains how Sony has enabled developers to combat the image downscaling issues that has been known to affect owners of certain HD televisions. If you recall, the PS3 had previously been unable to upscale resolutions (like the Xbox 360's Ana chip) from 720p to display on 1080i-only televisions, instead downscaling images to a less impressive 480p.
Though Sony's solution is far from complete, Beyond3D notes that the latest SDK implements hardware accelerated horizontal scaling. It's still up to developers to take the feature all the way, but the enhancement already decreases the memory footprint left by less elegant upscaling techniques. It might appear that a secret piece of hardware is slowly being "unlocked" here, but a more likely explanation is simply that Sony is slowly but surely tweaking their development software (and the way it utilizes the existing PS3 hardware) to enable proper scaling functionality in lieu of an obvious and dedicated scaler chip.
It will likely become mandatory for upcoming games to support this new hardware scaling solution; older games like Resistance may eventually see a patch implementing better scaling. More information will surface as tech sites analyze and contribute to this report, but it's nonetheless reassuring to see Sony being mindful of the problem and taking action to brush off that chip on their solder.
[Thanks, Jonah.]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Crono @ Jan 26th 2007 3:48PM
I've heard worse puns.
Shagittarius @ Jan 26th 2007 3:51PM
Could this be why games like Motorstorm and Lair got moved back by a month? All the better...I'm one of those people with a 480p/1080i set. Although come tax time, with a little luck, I'd like to snag an LCD set instead.
This was the biggest blunder of the entire Sony launch, lets home the game developers move quickly in adopting this function and that it has no adverse effects on hardware performance when it comes to frame rate.
fawazr @ Jan 26th 2007 3:53PM
I appreciated the pun...
Tony @ Jan 26th 2007 3:54PM
You know, the thing that this makes me instantly wonder is how much of a hit this would actually have on the games. If the 360 uses a dedicated chip to upscale that the PS3 supposedly lacks, then what I'm reading here states that this would have to be done through some sort of alternate hardware/software combination, which in turn implies that it's going to take up some aspect of the system's power that would be used for other calculations and processes. And, thus, would it be worthwhile to use it in some situations? It's not like there aren't games on the system that already have framerate issues (although why, I have no idea).
So, I see this as a good thing for people that were disappointed about its lack of upscaling, but is this really the optimum solution? I don't know tons about hardware, but it came to mind.
Crono @ Jan 26th 2007 3:58PM
I thought with all the extra space Blue Ray gives you, you could just include textures of the appropriate resolution for all HDTV scales, thus not need to scale anything at all.
Oh yeah, thats 3 times the work, and 3 times the cost.
Good thing we're paying an extra 10 bucks per game and watching in game adds to offset that.
Aex @ Jan 26th 2007 4:03PM
I thought it was punny ;)
@Crono,
If the coding is planned out properly it could all be automated into a batch program that would just take the 1080p picture and make copies of a scaled down version of each. Then it would be a simple switch in the code to change resolutions. Which wouldn't come anywhere close to 3x the work or time.
get over it @ Jan 26th 2007 4:03PM
this is why rushing out to buy a launch console isn't always the best idea... i didn't get my 360 until they had the quieter drive (still kinda loud) and won't get a ps3 until a few things are sorted out.
0ldb0y @ Jan 26th 2007 4:06PM
Shoulder? Solder? In inadvertant typo that kinda works?
alienclay @ Jan 26th 2007 4:08PM
it's not about texture res size and disc space, it's about how it processes final display resolution.
anyway it's nice to see sony working hard to get my ps3 ready for the real launch date of march 23rd.
i own a 1080i tv but what i dont understand is why this is so hard when 1080i uses about the same bandwidth of 540p and older ps2 games like gran turismo4 were able to hack it. is it that the hardware is always running in progressive and "interlaces" the progresive frame wasting the previoulsly rendered un-interlaced lines? (for 480i)
Richard Mitchell @ Jan 26th 2007 4:12PM
There should be a warning for crappy jokes like that! Oh wait...
Konchu @ Jan 26th 2007 4:15PM
Really I dont think it is as hard as making special textures or anything. PC Games have been made for years that support different resolutions they just need to make all the games support all the common resolutions and outputs. Sure it will cost more than say a scaler to do this because the games would have to be optimised for these different outputs for consistancy.
I really think this is a step in the right direction for Sony but something that should have been implemented day one.
Game Artist @ Jan 26th 2007 4:18PM
So now the ps3 will render at 960x1080 and do horizontal scaling. Color me not impressed.
alienclay @ Jan 26th 2007 4:19PM
that being said, there's nothing wrong with the system hardware, or the scaling. programing wise, it's that games that are not effecient enough for cell to run at 1080p, don't scale effeciently from 720p to 1080i. all that's being saied is that sony is showing devs in their sdks how to do it using far less system resources by taking advantage of how the system really works on a harware level.
Castle @ Jan 26th 2007 4:30PM
The suspected hardware scaler:
http://articles.techrepublic.com.com/2100-10877_11-5833453.html
Jason B @ Jan 26th 2007 4:33PM
I think Tony makes a good point. There goes one of those 7 SPEs.
Miniboss @ Jan 26th 2007 4:42PM
Uh, isn't this the same thing that the PS2 did when it went into "16:9" mode in 480p? They didn't actually increase the output resolution... they just, umm, squished the image so that it looked correct on a 16:9 display. :|
As for people wondering why developers can't make all of their games run in 1080p, you have to understand something about texture memory. You can have a bazillion gigabytes of textures on your Blu-Ray disc, but only 256 MB of them can actually be in memory at once. Also, you have to realize that the full image that you're actually seeing on screen also takes up video memory as well. Not to mention the back buffer. Perhaps other buffers such as the Z-buffer and stencil buffer take up the same amount of space as the fully rendered image.
And if you take into account that the image is at 1920x1080, and in 32-bit (meaning four bytes for each pixel), then just the image that's displaying on the screen alone is more than 8 MB large. Back buffer brings you to 16 MB. Already, you're at half of the video memory of the PS2. I'm not sure if the other buffers reside in video memory or if they would take up that amount as well, but you can see that video memory is mighty tight on the PS3 (the 360 as well, but they're not claiming 1080p superiority all over the place).
So basically, the higher resolution, either the lower the texture resolution or the lower the number of unique textures.
I'm probably wrong about half of this, but it makes sense in my head.
m3mnoch @ Jan 26th 2007 4:54PM
yup. you're right miniboss. with 1080p on the consoles right now, you have to make that ol' triangle of pain choice:
model detail or framerate or 1080p.
pick two.
most devs like epic choose highly detailed models (sweet textures, poly-counts, etc.) and a snappy framerate.
because, really, the 30 people out there who have 1080p televisions really aren't going to buy enough copies to support the game by themselves.
m3mnoch.
Screwed @ Jan 26th 2007 5:07PM
I can see most of you fuckers here will turn any good news from Sony to a bad one.
erac3rx @ Jan 26th 2007 5:08PM
Presuming that it is true the PS3 does have true scaling functionality built into the hardware (as the Beyond3D article implies), this is VERY good news. We get can get true 1080p if the developer chooses to go that route (Lair, Virtua Tennis, etc etc), or if the developers prefer to go with a 720p-ish approach they can utilize this technique to bring us nice looking 1080p and 1080i output with virtually no cost. If they later enable hardware vertical scaling in the SDK, this gets even better... devs can render in whatever native mode they want and scale for free to any other modes.
My understanding, and please correct me on this if I am wrong, is that on 360 you do not have that option-- everything must get rendered to a 720p buffer and is then scaled by the scaler chip to whatever output resolution you have specified in the system settings. Meaning that true 1080p output is not possible, only scaled 1080p output. And that gives PS3 a big advantage. Am I correct here?
Scott Krueger @ Jan 26th 2007 5:10PM
There is 7 CPUs in the PS3 so I think Scaling was not that big of a deal. I really don't care about scaling myself. The 720p Games Look Pretty Darn Good too.
@m3mnoch
I just Got my 1080p TV so that makes 31 of us.
SuicideNinja @ Jan 26th 2007 5:15PM
"what I'm reading here states that this would have to be done through some sort of alternate hardware/software combination, which in turn implies that it's going to take up some aspect of the system's power that would be used for other calculations and processes"
That's what I got out of it. Besides, I'm still not sold on the power of this taco/waffle iron thing labeled PLAYSTATION 3 sitting next to my 360. Are those SPE's worth the effort? It's not seeming like it. Even if their lofty claims are true...if a minor upgrade takes more development time...is it worth it?
some person @ Jan 26th 2007 5:21PM
Pun? Where? I don't see a pun
erac3rx @ Jan 26th 2007 5:23PM
Some updates to what I said earlier... 360 can definitely output 1080p natively for both movies and games now with that firmware update. I should have realized this before as obviously an HD-DVD addon that converts the 1080p that's on the disc to 720p and then converts it back to 1080 would be stupid. My bad.
One thing I should mention though is that the article makes it clear that devs are getting the horizontal scaling and presumably eventually vertical scaling for _free out of the hardware.
Meaning that it's NOT some weird software hack that possibly takes an SPE, but rather there IS a chip in the PS3 that can handle this and its use was simply not enabled in the SDK before.
GoonieGooGoo @ Jan 26th 2007 5:47PM
Anyone sensing a role reversal of the PS One vs. SATURN battle??
XBOX 360....Easy to develop for....Microsoft being the upstart going out of its way to help developers make games and catering to customer desires. Will kiss ass and offer boatloads of money to any developer in attempt to shore up exclusives for system.
SONY....Market veteran.....arrogant....complex chip design.....very difficult to develop for and rolling out tools for developers as they "come along".....confident that their 1st party titles are a lock to bring customers.
Game Artist @ Jan 26th 2007 5:57PM
#23
Doesnt say this scaling is free, just says that its enabled in the SDK now. Meaning the devs dont have to code it themselves. If they really had a dedicated hardware scaler, why wouldnt it be enabled before launch. And more importantly, why would they ever enable only horizontal scaling. This stinks of a software hack that they are trying to hide.
Diman @ Jan 26th 2007 6:07PM
So now that Motorstorm comment about 1080p is half true, even though it will be scaled.
Rod Oracheski @ Jan 26th 2007 7:11PM
"18. I can see most of you fuckers here will turn any good news from Sony to a bad one."
I think it's probably blowback from all the times Sony fans have pointed at 360 titles (the few that render initially at lower resolutions, add effects, then scale it up to the output desired) and said "THAT'S NOT REAL HIGH DEF"
If Sony hadn't spent much of the last year spouting off about "True HD" and putting down the 360 and Wii, they'd probably have less people laughing at their plight right now.
Or if they'd delivered on some of the promises.
JG @ Jan 26th 2007 7:33PM
I have a weird question. And in all my reading I have never had anyone answer this. I have a Sony 60in XBR1 1080p TV that was one of the ones that couldnt accept a 1080p signal but can upconvert everything to 1080p internally. Should I be setting everything up to 1080i? Would that make it "Like" 1080p? Im confused about the quality of video Im getting. Or whould I be better off setting it to 720p since the 360/PS3 would be sending a progressive signal? To me things seem a lot sharper on 1080i of course but I dont know if 720p would be better since it isnt converting anything.
Elrando @ Jan 26th 2007 8:01PM
"20. There is 7 CPUs in the PS3"
No there isn't. There are 7 SPE's, these only do floating point calculations, they aren't full processor cores, the PS3 only has 1 of those.
That said I'm sure one of these SPE's could be put to work on scaling, with a minimal hit to performance.
Anonim @ Jan 26th 2007 10:18PM
CAN ANYBODY THIS DAY read with understanding?
-it's a horizontal *stretcher* ONLY
-REQUIRES ANAMORPHIC [squashed] picture to work [like this:]
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q262/anonim1979/oblivionanamorphicmaly2razem.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anamorphic
-only 3 resolution supported 960x1080 1440x1080 1600x1080
-at least 10% more costly than 720p
-REQUIES GAME ENGINES REWRITE to work with older and new titles
-it works by doubling [for 960]/puting 1 extra pixel for every 3 pixels [1440]/puting 1 extra pixel for every 4 pixels [1600]
-WON'T WORK with PS1 / PS2 games
Alex @ Jan 27th 2007 12:47AM
Oh man. Are these 360 guys still claiming that SPEs aren't real processors? I mean come on, all 8 processors are independent. The fact that hardcore developers are letting SPEs run the whole show with the PPE doing minimal work says a lot.
This solution is actually just as good as Microsoft's hardware scaler since it takes up about the same amount of space as a 720p frame.
BTW, I have yet to see a single Xbox 360 title that runs at native 1080p. Some have come forward claiming that Lost Planet is 1080p, but it actually upscales from 720p to 1080p.
This new solution from Sony proves that they listen to their consumers and act upon it right away. For those of you who already bought your systems, don't worry. It's a software solution, so even if you have an old system it'll simply update the firmware. No need to buy a new console (hopefully Microsoft doesn't release Zephyr).
ill trooper @ Jan 27th 2007 12:29PM
Reading some of these comments, I come to the following conclusion:
When the 360 has a software patch that allows a different res, that's "GOOD," and when the PS3 has a software patch that allows a different res, that's "BAD..."
There's some haters in this house... Take it easy, dudes, and sail with a straighter keel, you're all over the place and you're hypocrites to boot. Don't ever take pre-release marketing talk to heart.
Does the difference between 720p and 1080p really upset you? You want to get upset? Try playing your Wii on an HDTV.
Digi Smalls @ Jan 27th 2007 11:06PM
leaving this strictly optional, horizontal only -scaling "functionality" to individual developers at the cost of game performance is rather insulting for this supposedly 'hi tech' piece of $600 equipment. what about games out now and close to done? i really doubt most developers will even use it in the future.
how many more half hour long firmware installs will it take to add vertical scaling? or having it work on DVDs? PS2 games?
how long will it take for sony to simply *catch up*?
.