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Posted: Feb 14th 2007 12:42PM (Unverified) said

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no, it's "participation awards" that are bad for kids self-esteem. When everyone in school gets an award for participating, then when they god forbid fail at something or lose a contest or something in the real world, they are screwed. My wife is a high school teacher in the suburbs, and she recently ran a battle of the bands as a fundraiser. She had my band judging. We told the kids like it was and they didn't know how to handle it. Kids are taught that EVERYONE'S A WINNER! when that is just not the case.
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Posted: Feb 14th 2007 12:42PM The1 said

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How???? Wii sports is a good way to get FAT and LAZY people off the Sofa to exercise.
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Posted: Feb 14th 2007 12:50PM (Unverified) said

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Jody - I hear you on that all the way. I went to my cousin's (8 years old) basketball game the other day just becaue I had never been to one of his games and I try to be a good cousin. Anyway, I get there I'm watching the game and then I notice I see no score on the scoreboard, so I asked my Uncle and he goes. "Yeah, they don't keep score, it's just fun for the kids." And I almost threw up in my mouth, seriously, I remember when I was 7 or 8 and played soccer, it was intense. We kept score and got bitched at if we f'ed up. It didn't matter that we were 7 years old, bottom line, we knew what needed to be done and if we did it wrong we got told about it, not this "everyone is good in thier own way" B.S. that I hear all the time. All these kids are going to grow up and finally step outside on their own and be totally blown away with how the world ACTUALLY works. I'm glad my parents were hard on me, it prepared me for what I have to deal with on an everyday basis today.
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Posted: Feb 14th 2007 12:50PM gLitterbug said

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Maybe she should try to actually raise her kids and teach them something, instead of sitting them in front of a console and water them now and then.
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Posted: Feb 14th 2007 12:50PM 2kings said

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i hardly think moving a remote around is proper exercise
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Posted: Feb 14th 2007 3:51PM (Unverified) said

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so playing falcon 3.0 doesn't count as training for a fighter pilot? who knew...
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Posted: Feb 14th 2007 1:02PM (Unverified) said

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While I agree with #1 in the sense that kids these days are getting patted on the back WAY too much (and my teacher mother would surely agree) I can say this:

Kids can still rock or suck at the particular skills involved in playing these games. And if this NPR parent is actually worried that developing a skill, even one that doesn't directly translate into the real-world sport, might raise her children's self-esteem then the problem isn't with Wii Sports. It's with the parent.

While meritless pats on the back are harmful, raising of self-esteem is not, especially the raising of self-esteem through skills development.

I fear the day when a parent wishes a lack of self-esteem on their children, turning them into an ever-larger population of meek sheeple. Sadly, when even NPR staff become examples of this type of person, I have to admit that day has arrived. :(
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Posted: Feb 14th 2007 12:58PM (Unverified) said

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Here's what I find odd/amusing. She points out that video games don't correlate to real-word skills, which I agree is true for the most part. Yet a lot of other commentators are quick to point out video games as training grounds for violent behavior. So moving the Wii remote around won't make me a good tennis player, but moving a mouse around makes me an expert marksmen. Makes sense.
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Posted: Feb 14th 2007 1:55PM (Unverified) said

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Still there is a difference between exposing kids to competition and being overbearing, i've seen way too many parents who try and live vicariously through their kids to the point where they go overboard, and not just with sports, but with studies, other activies, whatever, to a degree its good to expose them to the concepts of winning and losing, but there is also a point where you need to let kids be kids
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Posted: Feb 14th 2007 1:03PM (Unverified) said

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@3

That's crazy. And yes, I remember playing soccer as a kid, too. I feared my coaches. And I always played as hard as a I could, with as much intensity and physical aggression as I could. Nowadays I watch kids stand around on a basketball court with their hands in their pockets as kids drive by and throw in a layup.
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Posted: Feb 14th 2007 1:52PM (Unverified) said

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Obviously the solution is to have real tennis players that the kids can control through the Wii.

As for a name, I was thinking 'Ender's Game.'

Just a thought.
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Posted: Feb 14th 2007 1:54PM (Unverified) said

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While the NPR commentary has a valid point, I think it's a little disparaging to automatically assume that a steeper learning curve will deflate the ambitions of youth. Games that are well designed are a great tool for encouraging the engagement of those learning curves.

Lobbying the infliction of anguish on other individuals might be the wrong message, but I think there is a point to be made in the corrolary, which is perseverance when you end up on the receiving side of hard fought basketball anguish. A little corny, I know, but I think we all know someone who could stand to take defeat in a more grown-up manner.

Not to bash NPR too much, but they're a little quick to judge with their 'antique' viewpoint on gaming and could've done with more balance in perspectives.

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Posted: Feb 14th 2007 3:15PM (Unverified) said

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My Aunt is a 5th grade teacher and is still teaching kids with flash cards that T is for Tiger. I'm not kidding, the school is telling her to teach this way. She is from I understand, two inches away from quitting because of this.

I don't understand why schools have suddenly decided to treat everyone like handicapped mentally retarted people, but I bet political correctness is to blame. We can't teach our children reality, everything has to be nicey-nice and butter sweet.

Maybe years from now, Super Bowl 78 will be a score less game that people play for fun, and will be a game of Flag Football cause tackling might hurt someone... oh noes!

Society is just getting dumbed down altogether, from reality shows, to schools, to government.

George Carlin once said that corporations are in control of everything, they want people just smart enough to do the work, for low pay and low benefits, but not smart enough to realized that the system has thrown them overboard 30 years ago.
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Posted: Feb 14th 2007 1:15PM (Unverified) said

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I blogged about this after hearing the show on the way to work Monday morning:

http://corporate-sellout.com/index.php/2007/02/12/video_games_in_the_media
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Posted: Feb 14th 2007 1:17PM (Unverified) said

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She might be right on one instance. If you're good at Wii Tennis, trying to play actual tennis and deciding it's too hard (and as such not as much fun) may make you more likely to return to Wii Tennis and get your racquet fix. If Wii Sports weren't there and you didn't have experience with it, you'd have nowhere else to turn than actual tennis, so I can see the argument.

Then again, I don't see that as much of a self-esteem problem, or much of a "problem" at all, at least not one that needs to be solved by any more than the person involved. It's just another one of those things that reasonable people have to weigh the pros and cons between and make up their own mind about.
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Posted: Feb 14th 2007 1:23PM (Unverified) said

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Unless you go pro...
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Posted: Feb 14th 2007 1:24PM (Unverified) said

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Pyronite - I see what you're saying, BUT you could also look at it like this: The Wii is targeted towards "casual" gamers, most of which would probably have no interest in real Tennis to begin with. I never woke up and though "Damn, it would be GREAT if I learned how to play tennis today!". But alot of people will try Wii Tennis and find it enjoyable, some of those people might try to play real tennis because of this. If they find they're not good (which is most likely the case) then they'll turn back to Wii Tennis. I don't see the problem with this to be honest. If a game that gets people to actually want to at least TRY the real sport (which they would have never tried otherwise) is a "bad" thing then I guess I'm missing something here.
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Posted: Feb 14th 2007 1:31PM dantebk said

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How bizarre. NPR is usually a good place for reasoned discourse, but apparently not always.

People who think kids can't comprehend the difference between a video game or a cartoon and reality either think all kids are retarded or have only hung around with retarded kids. When I was a kid, and I was mad at another kid, I would just play Double Dragon 2 for NES and pretend I was beating them up. I knew it wasn't real. I was just getting out my aggression in a harmless way and my mom would actually play with me and encourage it. Any kid knows that Wii Tennis is not Tennis. This is a NON ISSUE.

In regards to the off-topic topic: I don't really understand how the world works sometimes. I have never met anyone who thought participation awards and scoreless games and this everybody's a winner-style BS was a good thing, so how are all these programs coming to be?
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Posted: Feb 14th 2007 1:34PM Crono141 said

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so how are all these programs coming to be?

Liberal bleeding heart morons in charge of school distric policies, thats how.

You'll never find a group more disconnected from reality.
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Posted: Feb 14th 2007 2:07PM (Unverified) said

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Now kids, there are a lot of things you can do outside!

1. Play tennis at your step-fathers country club with your middle school friends.
2. Take your parents set of golf clubs out to a course and have fun in the real world!
3. Go down to the seedy bowling alley and try not to get molested!
4. Set up a boxing ring in your back yard, duct tape some towels on your fists, and knock eachother out!
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Posted: Feb 14th 2007 1:55PM (Unverified) said

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"15. so how are all these programs coming to be?

Liberal bleeding heart morons in charge of school distric policies, thats how.

You'll never find a group more disconnected from reality."

Except for conservatives who think Evolution is from the devil and that Iraq had anything to do with 9/11 and still had WMDs
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Posted: Feb 14th 2007 2:52PM (Unverified) said

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She didn't say it was "bad for self-esteem", Kyle, and she hardly implied that.

NPR commentary is often dry humor... which you seemed to miss out on.
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Posted: Feb 14th 2007 2:02PM (Unverified) said

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You know, one of the most interesting things about all this, is that it's the public school system that's the major culprit here. I attended Catholic school for grades 1-5 and they were the most strict, rigid teachers I've ever had. Going from Catholic to Public school in 6th grade I noticed that I could always get away with a whole lot more in the Public schools, however we STILL kept score and got yelled at when we did something wrong. My cousin goes to public school and my youngest sister goes to catholic and she STILL gets disciplined like I used to, but as you can see, my cousin in the public school gets treated like he's 2 years old, when in reality he's a very bright kid.
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Posted: Feb 14th 2007 2:07PM (Unverified) said

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This woman has no idea what she is talking about! We all know that Halo has made us better alien-killing space marines, and Wii Sports has turned us into tennis pros!!!11
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Posted: Feb 14th 2007 2:13PM (Unverified) said

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I can't wait for virtual sex to hit it big so all these pinheads can get laid and stop whining about how bad everything is
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Posted: Feb 14th 2007 2:25PM (Unverified) said

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"I don't understand why schools have suddenly decided to treat everyone like handicapped mentally retarted people, but I bet political correctness is to blame. We can't teach our children reality, everything has to be nicey-nice and butter sweet."
First off, if your aunt is actually doing this, she's as culpable as anyone. She should be reporting her school to the state education association. Or maybe you're exaggerating, just a tad, hmm? As the father of two, I can tell you that 8 year-olds aren't learning 'T for Tiger', they're learning complex fractions and equations. They're developing writing skills and working on essays. They're studying civics, biology and languages.

What I find most amusing here is the 'damn kids today' sentiment running through the comments here, especially from ones who don't actually have kids, but are POSITIVE they know what's best for them or how to raise them. As often as not, it's the parents who are the only ones who care about keeping score, not the kids. And there are other lessons than just winning and losing to be learned. There are issues of teamwork, finishing a task you start (regardless of whether you're in last place or not), sportsmanship, altruism, community, learning how to follow rules and the benefits of practice and increasing skill.

I mean listen to her commentary: she's a professor at a media studies school. She also seems to think her kids can't tell the difference between fantasy and reality by age 12. I think we can safely assume that she's exaggerating for the purpose of illustration, which would also explain her intentional misinterpreting of her kids comments. No, Kelly, your kids don't think they're really playing is actual, honest-to-goodness Tennis. And I tell you what, they know there really isn't a fantasy world inside their crazy uncle's wardrobe, that undead pirates walk the earth and that Harry Potter isn't real. You may want to call your parents, to find out why they thought you were watching to much of the TV and listening to that devil music with all it's drug references. Oy.
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Posted: Feb 14th 2007 2:26PM NintendoFanbot said

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I don't know, DDR is pretty much an activity in itself, and yet people don't know how to dance. :)

Street Fighter teaches button combos, not fighting technique. I wonder if that's how the article writer sees videogames that she says people will mistake them for.

The Wii isn't supposed to provide that kind of activity but people ARE more active. It also improves the dynamic of offline multiplayer.

Also, WiiSports rules. Also, MOCAP BOXING.
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Posted: Feb 14th 2007 2:36PM (Unverified) said

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@ #1

Don't forget movies that always have a happy ending. Well, there's nothing wrong with storybook happy endings perse, but the way Disney does it, it gets many little girls believing they WILL meet a rich prince who will provide for ALL their needs when they grow up.

@ #5
""i hardly think moving a remote around is proper exercise""

better than nothing, which is exactly how much exercise some Americans get. Even so, doing stuff like using 30min of your lunch break to walk around, or parking further away and walking extra steps is good for most ppl. Supplementing working out is even better
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Posted: Feb 14th 2007 2:38PM (Unverified) said

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WizarDru - As the father of two, you should know better than any of use the value of teaching your children the way the world works. I'm sorry, but I'm 21 years old, no kids, but that also means that I was a kid myself NOT THAT LONG AGO and things have changed alot in that short period of time. Your point about the values of teamwork and working towards a goal and completing a task is valid, but the fact remains that the whole point of a SPORT in general (whether it be with a team or solo) is to do better than your opponent. How do you measure success or if your teamwork actually paid off in the end without a score? I'm all about kids having fun, but there are plenty of ways for kids to have fun outside of school-sanctioned sports. They still sell toys in stores don't they? I mean, it was great to play with toys and whatnot as a younger kid, but there's a whole separate sense of achievment and success that comes from knowing that you did something BETTER than your opponent. If you try to claim that the kids dont' care about the score then that's a product of the system and completely contradicts your claim that this is all about achieving something. Achieving a higher score than anyone else is the goal in sports, and that will never change. Do you think that when your kid starts taking the ACT or SAT for college and if they happen to not do AS WELL as you, or they, might have expected that the college is just going to go "Well, he gave it his all, lets let him in." I'm sorry, but thats not how the world works, and if you're not presenting that to your children then you're setting them up for failure.
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Posted: Feb 14th 2007 2:51PM (Unverified) said

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Please. Anyone who saw Conan O'Brien defeat Serena Williams in Wii Sports Tennis ought to be able to recognize the disconnect between Wii Sports greatness and real sports greatness. I mean, just because I'm a scratch golfer in Wii Sports doesn't mean I could just go out right now and qualify for the U.S. Open. If the kids aren't smart enough to see that, then the parents aren't teaching them right.

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Posted: Feb 14th 2007 2:59PM (Unverified) said

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i'm not sure about this.... I have never played baseball before in my life, up until Wii Sports. After playing wii baseball for 1 month I decided to take my chances in a real batting cages. I made direct hits with at least 80% of the 40mph fastballs that were being thrown at me. Not too shabby...for a first timer
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Posted: Feb 14th 2007 3:16PM (Unverified) said

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- WizarDru

She is teaching 5th graders T is for Tiger, because so many of her students don't know english, why don't they know english? Because 90% of them are not even suppose to be here, in America, they are illegal aliens. So yes... of course the state administration supports this, because they won't do anything about the problem.

But this is a whole other issue altogether.

Meanwhile the other 10% that know english and know T is for Tiger are doing what exactly? What are they learning?

Remember when schools had the "Head Start" program? Now they have "No Child Left Behind".

Head Start? Left Behind? Someone is losing some fucking ground here.
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Posted: Feb 14th 2007 3:20PM (Unverified) said

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I made direct hits with at least 80% of the 40mph fastballs that were being thrown at me. Not too shabby...for a first timer

OH MY GOD.

I seriously hope this is sarcasm.

Anyone who calls a 40 mph pitch a "fastball" is worthy of scorn.

If not, Kid. You suck. Even for a first timer.

Even the kids in LITTLE LEAGUE throw faster than 40 mph. You hit 80% of 40 mph changeups.
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Posted: Feb 14th 2007 3:51PM (Unverified) said

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I also hate the dumbing down of schools... I moved from Georgia to Michigan between 2nd and 3rd grade. In Georgia in 2nd grade I was doing division, and played soccer competitively. When I moved to Michigan (a more "progressive" state), suddenly we were learning the alphabet and multiplication of single digits (i.e. 2*2 = 4) and we weren't allowed to keep score in gym.
Apparently, "progress" means illiteracy and idiocy.
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Posted: Feb 14th 2007 5:02PM (Unverified) said

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or it could be the other way around... real tennis won't prepare you for wii sports tennis.. ask serena williams! she lost to conie obrien
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Posted: Feb 14th 2007 7:29PM applefanboy said

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I'm glad they didnt have Wii Basketball cause I would have probably got dunked on in a real game.
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Posted: Feb 15th 2007 12:26AM (Unverified) said

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I just got out of prison for stealing a car. From all my experience with every Grand Theft Auto game I thought for sure I could outrun the police. Even when I heard the helicopter overhead, I was optimistic.

I guess I'm not as good as I thought...

Do we really think kids are stupid enough to think they'll be just as good at real sports as they are at Wii Sports? We don't let them drive a car until they're old enough, no matter how bad they school us in Mario Kart.

Children are going to play video games no matter how many times you tell them to go play outside, so why not get them off the couch when they play. To say Wii Sports is bad for children is ridiculous.
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Posted: Feb 14th 2007 6:02PM AirIntake said

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Flight sims definitely make you a better pilot
Driving sims definitely make you a better driver

Hell, Virtual Pool made me a better billiards player!

But yeah, Wii sports will teach you nothing about real sports.
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Posted: Feb 14th 2007 7:14PM (Unverified) said

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She's certainly right about one thing, Wii Sports is about as dumbed-down a game as you can get. Wait, strike that....Wii Play is perhaps even easier. Really, the Wii games ARE for non-gamers because they certainly seem aimed at making anyone feel that they can be good at gaming. The stuff is pure fluff.
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Posted: Feb 14th 2007 7:17PM (Unverified) said

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You know, let's not turn this into a demo versus rep debate. In case you missed it, education has slid downhill since the bush plans went into effect.

You know, in these cases, it then becomes the parents responsibility to provide what children take pride in and learn. The excuse of "this is what they are teaching in school" is getting rather old. Let's just put it this way.

Let's say you go to a restaurant. You want to order something from the menu but the waitress tells you the chef is already making a huge heaping of Roast Beef because someone before you ordered that. Now, would you bitch that you want something different or just take the Roast Beef? This is the state of education today.

These are your kids. It's time to say "No, this ISN'T good enough." There are other programs (like Sylvin), books, and dare I even say it, workshops that you can foster a better education for very little money. There is no reason on the planet why a parent should accept "as well as everyone else" if the child clearly wants to excel.

Long ago, I dated a teachers aide. Well, because I was studying art, she wanted me to come in and do a little program for the kids. No biggie. I went in, and these are 10 year olds, mind you. After I gave the assignment, this one kid managed to excel. So I told him she's got some real talent there and she should devote some of her freetime to art and I even gave her the name of some books to look for. Another kid came up while she was up there and asked how the two compared. This kid was horrid, but I kept it nice and pretty much told him he should look at hers and try to copy it to get better. The teacher then pulled me in the hall and "informed me" that all the kids have "equal skills."
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Posted: Feb 14th 2007 8:08PM (Unverified) said

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My wife teaches middleschool. I cringe at the level of complacency and mediocrity she has to deal with. Luckily, the school isn't far from the state pen, so the kids get to view their potential everyday.

As for Wii lowering self-esteem? Wait, you're telling me that these kids aren't capabable from differentiating Wii sport skills from real world skills? Dammit. The education system is worse than I thought.

And a 40mph pitch is NOT a fast ball. It's barely a slow ball. Did it roll across the home plate? Did you have to hit it like a golf ball?
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Posted: Feb 14th 2007 9:05PM SpiralGear said

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oh god....

i didnt even bother reading after the first couple sentances im sure its retarded

if your kids are that weak minded they shouldent be playing sports anyways
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Posted: Feb 14th 2007 9:21PM Mr Khan said

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I know my prodigious intellect is not the result of Pennsylvania Public Schools

If it weren't for PBS, the History Channel, Wikipedia, and Captain Planet, i would be dumber than fuck.... (oh, and Calvin and Hobbes, which taught me how to read)
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Posted: Feb 15th 2007 12:48AM (Unverified) said

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So its like when Snake tells Raiden that VR means sh*t.
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Posted: Feb 15th 2007 3:17PM (Unverified) said

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Ugh, another reporter who "discovered" something and needs to share. News flash - Wii Sports is a video game, not reality. If you can't figure that out then your problems go way deeper than self esteem. You have a problem with reality in general and you need to wake the F up and learn to deal with LIFE.

And NPR... for shame. Kelly got paid for this report! She probably gets paid more than I do!! Ok, I'm absolutely sure of that fact. I can pull reports out of my ass for that salary. Sign me up NPR!
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