Hard questions: Wii novelty and drought in effect?

Just wrote about this:

http://enlightenedgamer.blogspot.com/

and yeah, I'm totally with #18, that sentence almost burst in my brain an aneurysm it did.

Why is everyone writing off Sonic just because his past 100 games have sucked major ass? Okay okay, but let's be fair, most previews are really positive.

i have quit trying to make a judgment on how a gaming
device is going to turn out after the DS i was soo sure that is was gonna suck and look how that turned out so in order to prevent from looking stupid again when i am wrong i am not going to make any predictions.

Only care in the world for the Wii is the Nintendo platform games and the Wiimote (ambidextrous control features). That being said, it's looking to be a long endless drought. Most of them are carryovers from previous systems. The PS3 going to have to rely on a lot of cross platformer titles thru its drought. 360 has the upperhand being easier to develop games than the PS3 and first to market them.

I can see now that this Topic is Just one big excuse for all Wii haters to TRY to make it seem like Wii is doomed.

LOL

It's like they think if by bad mouthing the Wii somehow people will stop buying them and developers will stop praising it and heavily supporting it.

It Funny and Sad at how desperate these guys are to attempt to make Wii look bad.

"Wii's novelty has worn off"
"It has no good games, there are no AAA games coming out"
"I don't play mines anymore"
"I think I'm going to sell mines"

yet meanwhile in the real world Wiis are STILL continuing to sell out instantly while PS3s collect dust

LMAO

JohnQ raises a very good point - the constant conflation people make between the Wii and the DS is waaaaay off base. For one thing, making console games is a lot different than making portable games - more expensive, time consuming, and difficult to program. Lots of the top flight DS games are ports or near-ports. Plus, the portable market is so vastly different...the DS having no competition save the PSP, which isn't that strong of a competitor. The Wii has 3 competitors. Finally, JohnQ touched on this, but the entire idea behind the Wii was funamdentally unsound. Nintendo has always let success get to their heads, and tend to overvalue tacky gadgets. It happened with ROB/Power Glove/etc. etc. until failure stopped them from churning out such garbage. However, the success of the DS has left Nintendo (and many others) thinking that the touch screen is the reason for the success - when remarkably few games really use that gimmick, and many in an unhepful and annoying way (like in NSMB, where it would switch to the lower screen when you go in a pipe...extremely irritating and pointless).
Nintendo has taken from this the notion that building a system around a control scheme would guarantee its success. In reality, the Wii's fast selling has much more to do with Microsoft and Sony's abject failure to put out a system that cheaply offers a large number of good titles in a variety of genres (the secret to the PS2's success).

The problem with the Wii draught isn't about what's come out thus far (which would be almost a non-existing launch if Nintendo hadn't cheated and pretended like a Gamecube game was designed for the Wii...the holding back of the GC version of TP for a month was a real low move)...but the long term lack of big name titles. There'll be a new Zelda game out in...what, 2 years? One or two main level Mario and Metriod games in the next few years? Nintendo still needs to overcome what's been their achilles heel for the past two consoles - the pathetic lack of great third party titles. Red Steel shows that they are far, far away from addressing that. Until they do, the occasional mini-game collection is all Wii owners get. The fact that the other consoles are real screwed up this generation in their own ways, and people have been buying the Wii, doesn't excuse the failure of Nintendo to back up their own hype.

deandelta

deandelta

at:OhJustSomeRandomGuy
you said: "To a real developer, more horsepower = better AI, multiple paths through the game, customization, better physics, AND better graphics."Okay if that's so true, where was the a.i. in lost planet? or tomb raider legend,splinter cell had the same type of a.i. as the previous versions. were was this advanced a.i.? and these were games from top developers!! Once again it's all about what the developers can do. And the only thing were seeing with these next gen games is better gfx's. What game are you playing that has this radical a.i. in it? These developers are doing the same things that we were playing and doing on the old consoles, so all that better ai, more paths stuff is bs. The only thing that restricts developers is their imaginations!

The PS3 came out in the States on November 17. The Wii launched November 19.

Currently, there are 20 games available for the PS3 and 34 for the Wii.

Drought my ass. The naysayers are just trying to make up for their shoddy prediction that the PS3 would crush both the 360's and Wii's launch.

XENIKOS said:

"However, the success of the DS has left Nintendo (and many others) thinking that the touch screen is the reason for the success - when remarkably few games really use that gimmick"

You might have a point but you also didn't mention that the games that DO use it well, such as Animal Crossing, Nintendogs, Brain Age, etc. are among the system's best sellers.

Sure there is underutilization of a system's features and capabilities, but that applies to every system, not just because a Wii game doesn't use the Wiimote or the DS its second screen. Not every game is expected to push the full capabilities of a system, especially in their respective first years.

"Until they do, the occasional mini-game collection is all Wii owners get."

Here's an example of when a product is being underutilized on the customer's end. If you buy and play a mini-game collection as a single-player rather than with friends, who's fault is that? Maybe Nintendo could put them Online, but then Online isn't comparable to people sitting side-by-side, isn't it? ;)

The huge contribution Nintendo's own 1st-party efforts will add to the system is still yet to be realized, not to mention the 3rd-Party games. It WILL have 3rd-party games, but hopefully this time the best of that group won't be watery ports.

"doesn't excuse the failure of Nintendo to back up their own hype"

LOL. Uh-huh.

#104
"If graphics don't matter, then why aren't major films shot in Super 8mm or 16mm? Nintendo's claim that graphics are not important is an excuse for them to profit on their Gamecube for an additional few years"
If graphics mattered so much why is the ps2 still achieving respectable sales, even surpassing more technologically superior consoles (360 and ps3)? Its not that graphics don't matter (because they do), more that they are not the critical/determining factor in determining the 'winner' (historically speaking). Case in point - ps2 trouncing GC and xbox (both graphically superior), DS trouncing psp. Also if graphics matter so much to you buy a PC, because as it stands at the moment PCs reign supreme on graphics, NOT CONSOLES. Consoles currently have second rate graphics (granted the Wii has third rate but being second doesn't mean much)

"but many have HD-ready TVs and in 5 years? The Wii-Cube is going to look pretty nasty to a lot of folks"
Yes and in 5 years Wiis successor should be out, and should support HD.

"$249 quickly balloons if you start adding some required accessories like bigger SD cards, additional controllers, component cables and a proper retro controller for VC games"
Hmm what you think this problem is exclusive to Wii? Please. Lets talk about problems EXCLUSIVE to Wii, not something that all consoles have. I mean the ps3 advocates HD and does not come with one out of the box. Please Try again.

"The Wii's controller is extremely innovative but does not a next-gen system make"
So should Nintendo just make a system like ps3/360? Is that what you want, 3 consoles that do exactly the same thing? Look if you want the traditional gaming $#!t you have a good choice in ps3/360. For something different you have the Wii. I am for a loss why people find this concept so difficult to understand.

I have all the next (now current) gen consoles, and the only one i play constantly is the wii. I play Wario, wii sports (2k tennis havent been able to beat it) and COD, I also read news and vote in the polls almost everyday (great channel btw). I dont think is a novelty at all, I don't want to use regular controls anymore.

Funny that those claim Nintendo made a mistake by not supporting HD seem completly ignornat of how horrible the HD enabled PS3 and Xbox 360 do in Japan?

Guess what HD bombed there most people there still have crts. HD has been there since 1967. If Japan didn't embrace HD for gaming much less tv what the frak makes you think the rest of the world will?

If the country described by the rest of the world as gadget hungry and tech savy doesn't embrace HD or the consoles or movie formats why would you think countries that are described as tech phobic such as the US would?

". There'll be a new Zelda game out in...what, 2 years? One or two main level Mario and Metriod games in the next few years?"

Guess you missed all those secret wii games that got announced out of left field since they were being developed in secret. Nintendo admitted to boosting their development teams. A lot of development studios have opened up dedicated to wii and the DS. Guess what lots of wii games are unnanounced. There will be a ton of third party Wii games being announced at the TGS.

Red Steel who the **** only checks out the multiplayer which is quite frankly 10% of the game and that is being generous? Who the hell checks out only the multiplayer of any game?
If you say the bots sucked I know you haven't even played the multiplayer since there is no bots. The only way to start a multiplayer is to have multiple remotes.

" I do not want a system to win the console wars that caters mainly to non-gamers, Nursing Homes, Trophy Wives or luddites who think a composite cable can deliver HD on their 1980's era RCA televisions"

Hilarous the two systems that sold the most units prior to the playstation which only sold due to defective units being replaced multiple times were the Atari 2600 and NES which was played by everybody.

Virtua Fighter Five and other PS3 games bombed horribly in Japan. They will bomb outside of Japan as well.

Wii sales are only due to lack of supply so **** gamepro for stupid reporting.

Nintendofanbot -

Yeah, there are a few games that make heavy use of the stylus. But would Animal Crossing and Nintendogs really not be viable using regular controls? I'm sure it'd be slightly more difficult to pet dogs, or do whatever the fuck one does in Animal Crossing...but I'm sure that you'd be using Okami as an example of the necessity of the touch screen if it was a DS screen - but it worked fine with the regular controller. (As for Brain Age, I don't consider that a game, tecnically...more like one of the prime bits of evidence showing that the Japanese are fucking insane. If you want to get smarter, read a book).

My argument is not that the touch screen has zero benefits or is a detriment to the system (although i'd personally prefer it if my DS had one larger screen rather than two tiny ones, one of which rarely gets used). My argument is that Nintendo has made a grave logical error - if a good game incorporates touch screen, or motion sensibility, then fine. But motion sensibility does not *make* a game good if it isn't otherwise.

Animal Crossing DS can use the button controls just fine. Certain people prefer the stylus in certain DS games because it is much easier to use to them.

Brain Age well you couldn't do a lot of it with just button presses.

A lot of people are stating that Okami should be ported to the Wii since it would be perfect on the wii.

Oh btw they were originaly planning to make Okami realistic style but the PS2 wasn't powerfull enough.

AI guess what doesn't matter how powerfull the system is if the programmers don't do their job.

Physics once again programmers can take care of that. Sure it takes longer or requires incredibly skilled programmers but a less powerfull system can do it. Also lack of power makes the developers come up with tricks or techniques that can make a game developed on a more powerfull system seem utterly pathetic.

Gears of War could have been done on another system and it would be the exact same game.

A lot of xbox 360 games were games meant for the gamecube or xbox. The xbox360 version didn't look any better then the gamecube or xbox development cycle.

@ Xenikos

Brain Age isn't supposed to make people smarter. It's principle is based on keeping one's mind sharp.

Nintendogs was originally being designed for Gamecube, but Miyamoto and co. decided that the DS would enhance the interactivity factor.

Animal Crossing utilizes the touch screen for writing letters, making paint patterns and other features. The pattern drawing is also a popular feature in Tony Hawk's American Sk8land/Downhill Jam. In cases like those I think games could really allow for better interactivity. Painting patterns in Wrestling games, AC, F-Zero with a joystick isn't that fun especially compared to what you can do now.

As for Okami on DS? I dunno. You can already have such an impression with Viewtiful Joe DS. There are times when devs think that the controls will aid the game and those times are more of the do it good or miss entirely. So it depends on how you'd feel Okami would do, or in this case, Viewtiful Joe DS was.

I'd be more primed for an Okami on Wii but the simplicity of the patterns you draw in Okami keep it smooth on a traditional controller for say, the PS2. However, if a sequel were to use more complex motions, I'd say that the Wiimote could handle it better.

"But motion sensibility does not *make* a game good if it isn't otherwise."

You're right. To make the best of the system's capabilities the game must be built around them from the ground up. It's the same principle that exists for multi-platform ports, PC-console conversions, etc... the chances are better if the game is wholly developed rather than compressing/converting code.

Over exaggerating would be the word here. Nintendo's Wii drought is like all other post launch droughts. Happened to the 360, the Gamecube, The PS3, the Xbox and so on. Nothing new and singling out the Wii is not needed though I guess it is singled out cause it's right now had a good launch & is still under an inquiry if it will have lasting appeal.

THe thing is Nintendo did promise this wouldn't happen and I think this really should be a time where 3rd party devs really start going 'till blockbuster season. Time to try new things and IP's and the like.

Nintendo though seems to be getting lazy....online delays......software delays.....a lack of commitment in the virtual console that with some extra and original content could have been something to tide over people..

I don't see how a game drought necessarily has a relation to the Wii novelty wearing off. There have been game "droughts" for years depending on the "season" regardless of game systems. If anything it just means developers took too long with their wait and see approach and didn't take the Wii seriously enough early on. The Wii can still be quite popular as long as great games make it on the system, whether or not they use the Wii's special control features.

Now as for the question of whether or not the Wii novelty is wearing off, well, that depends again on developers. Eventually though it will wear off and people will think less about the control and think more about the games, especially when standards come to being and developers and gamers don't necessarily have to wonder how such and such game or genre will work with the Wiimote system. It'll just normalize and become as standard as a gamepad or mouse/keyboard. How well they're implemented however will still be something people will keep an eye on; probably more so than on regular gamepads (i.e. people complaining about how the Megaman Anniversary Collection has the A and B buttons switched from the classic way).

@Xenikos

New/different control methods are suppose to make things easier when it comes to controling a game; make it more intuitive. D-pads for instance, can be argued, make 2D fighting game play better but would be a pain to use for, say, an RTS game or FPS game (at least the kind we know of that dominate the PC). The analog stick made it better to control characters in 3D worlds better (just note Mario 64 on the DS compared to N64). The right control method can make a game better by taking out some of the frustration, but like giving a poor game better graphics it won't do much. It's about providing the right balance in all things.

"Wow you must be a very blind man/woman or a huge Xbox 360 fanboy to not see the title that are coming out that now old 360 titles over Feb to March."

Huh??

wow, if we're complaining about a drought now, I can only imagine the whining and bitching we'll experience in the traditional game drought called SUMMER.

@Terrak "So should Nintendo just make a system like ps3/360? Is that what you want, 3 consoles that do exactly the same thing?"

Exactly! No one needs 3 identical game systems!

And, high definition would harm the Wii more than it would help the Wii! High definition makes everything more expensive. $500 is too expensive for many consumers to risk on a console that may or may not be a gimmick, and $15~$20 million is too much for notoriously risk-adverse publishers to risk on developing games are an uncertain console. Standard definition is the only way to hit the $250 consumer sweet-spot, and the lower game development costs are actually attracting game publishers!

"The PS3 gets Virtua Fighter 5 this week, and the wii gets....." ~ rodeo

Purchased.

Hey don't insult the DS's touch screen, Metroid Prime Hunters, Ouendan, Trauma Center, Elite Beat agents, they are my babies. As for the second screen, I actually prefer it over one big screen, maybe it's just that I love how the things closes. Also games like Tetris DS, Mario & Luigi and Castlevania really were enhanced by the second screen.

And that's just the games I own, I'm certain a lot of other games really benefited off the touch screen and dual screen.

But back on topic, there was no way Nintendo could compete with Sony and Microsoft on the graphics department, because they don't have deep pockets to subsidize their consoles, so Nintendo would have either an expensive (400$) console with an unproven "gimmick" that was mostly meant to appeal grandmas who would never spend 400$ on a console, together with less capable graphics than the 360, or a REALLY expensive console (600$) with the same traditional controller style that is slightly above the Xbox 360. Yep Nintendo is really smart with what they did, because after the GameCube no one would buy their console if they had competed directly with Sony and MS. But of course, as a "core" gamer that I am, I'm really only interested in how the fun the Wii multiplayer is, how well it is selling (which attracts 3rd party devs), and the usual AAA Nintendo titles. It can go two ways now, 3rd party dev relations are fixed and Nintendo finally gets some love, or it becomes the GameCube all over again. Ah well, for 250$ I would still buy it if it became the new GameCube, Nintendo titles are awesome, and I can easily afford an Xbox 360 for all my other gaming needs.

I think a lot of people need to sit down and really think about what they mean when they say motion sensing controls are a "novelty" or what it means to have "tacked on" controls. There are a lot of folks who are WAAAAY to quick to piss and moan about those things. But then...what they hell do you guys WANT?

Developers should NOT be under pressure to completely reinvent the wheel when it comes to controlling games. Tilting the Wiimote on it's side to play a racing game might not be the most "innovative" way to control a racing game, for example, but it IS the most obvious. And personally, it's a lot more effective than using a D-Pad or analog stick.
The new Mortal Kombat control scheme on the Wii also looks to be brilliant, too, as another example. Do they count as "bolted on" controls?

If developers DO start trying to find completely unthought of, weird ways to utilize the Wiimote, THAT would be tacked on controls.
Some game styles or genres are going to control several times better with the Wiimote/motion controls. Other games are going to be hampered by it.
It's really that simple.

It's unfortunate, however, that Nintendo failed to include the Classic Controller with the Wii. That actually DOES force developers to include forced on controls, even if it ultimately only hurts the game. Including the CC would have said to the developers, "Hey! It's OK if you don't have/want/need motion controls and just want to make a 'traditional' game."

Quite honestly, there's plenty on the Wii to keep me occupied for a while. Raving Rabbids is a blast (especially with multiple players), despite having what even I'll say are crappy-ass graphics. I'm still playing Twilight Princess, which is a drop-dead beautiful game even in 480i. And I've seen PS3 games running in 720p (on the same screen I'm playing TP), and I can't really see where there's an earth-shattering difference. A difference, yes, but a few low-resolution textures do not bad graphics make.

I've still barely even played Ultimate Alliance, Downhill Jam (which I tried, and is pretty fun for me despite the reviews), and NFS Carbon. Red Steel is crap, yes, but I'll probably give it a run-through anyway.

Has the novelty run out? For me, yes, it most certainly has. I'm used to swinging around and pointing by now. But I'm still having a helluva lot of fun doing it.

As for the drought...yes, it's a drought. But there's still plenty of good games coming out (Sonic, SSX, PoP, Godfather), albeit not many. The way I see it, though, there may not be much coming out, but there's plenty already there.

Oh, and about Sonic and the Secret Rings: Yes, most of the recent Sonic games (and all of the 3D ones) have sucked. Secret Rings works on a completely different concept (let alone control scheme), and--here's the kicker--is developed by a completely different studio (i.e. NOT Sonic Team), for which I thank God. It's everything that 3D Sonic games aren't, and everything that they should be, based on every single preview I've read. So I wouldn't call mentioning it a "desperate move" to defend the Wii--hell, it might even get filed under "AA title", despite the admittedly bad voice-acting and music. We'll see.

Full disclosure dept.: I consider myself a Nintendo fanboy, albeit a fairly rational one. All three systems have their ups and downs--I just think that the Wii has the most ups.

Oooh ooh what did I miss?

Let's see...

@deandelta, the lack of HD made the Wii affordable, and it isn't hurting anybody. People who whine about the lack of HD are people who weren't gonna buy a Wii anyway. Not enough homes have HDTVs to make it a priority. Look at PS2 sales. SD will still be the norm for more than 5 years. The Wii is definitely "Next-Gen" if you're still using that term. GC/PS2/Xbox were 6th generation; 360/PS3/Wii are 7th generation. These are historical terms that you don't get to argue.

@Xenikos, R.O.B. and the Power Glove are irrelevant. R.O.B. only worked for 2 games on the NES, out of 675 licensed games. The Wii remote comes with the Wii and works for every game. The Power Glove was made by Mattel, worked like shit, and also... only had 2 games made for it (Super Glove Ball, which is amazing, and Bad Street Brawler, which is amazingly bad).

Also, here's a list of films shot on 16 mm:
Leaving Las Vegas (1995)
March of the Penguins (2005)
Jackass: The Movie (2002)
Babel (2006) (Nominated for 7 Oscars)
The Queen (2006) (Nominated for 6 Oscars)
These all made a DICKLOAD of money.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Films_shot_in_Super_16

@Unit, "The only thing that restricts developers is their imaginations!" is the damn truth. Developers waste all their horsepower on graphics and NOTHING else. You could take a game like Gears, and cut the graphics back until it could be played on an N64.

(@ Fuzzmosis) "New Super Mario bros uses your stored item. Whether or not tacked on, that depends on whether you consider giving the option of controlling through another means tacked on..."

Considering it's either, keep your hands in the standard position you'd use to play the game, or have to reposition your hands to reproduce a simple button press, then yeah, that's pretty much the definition of tacked on.

Making a big deal about that being appropriate use ot the Touch Screen is even less defensible than someone saying that Street Fighter Alpha Anthology makes awesome use of the L1 button because you can map a punch to it.

(@ Grey Acumen) "On the flip side, you have games that are completely new experiences, and take total advantage of the Wiimote's motion sensing, yet because the games aren't like anything done before, people gripe about the game being 'gimicky'"

Uh, no. I, and most others who make this complaint, define "gimmicky" as, a very small part of what would comprise a normal game being built up as a core point of gameplay. Examples: the seals in Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow, and the line drawing in Kirby: Canvas Curse.

Now for something like Trauma Center, the Touch Screen and remote use are a real coup. You couldn't do those game on any other system (minus a PC.), they were different, and they were fun games. It's a real shame that nobody else can duplicate that apparently, because all I see out there are minigames and shoddy driving games.

Kirby Canvas Curse was all about drawing lines to guide kirby. So no it wasn't tacked on it was part of the game mechanics and story rationale for the game.

"Uh, no. I, and most others who make this complaint, define 'gimmicky' as, a very small part of what would comprise a normal game being built up as a core point of gameplay. Examples: the seals in Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow, and the line drawing in Kirby: Canvas Curse."

I'm sorry, but the line drawing in Kirby: Canvas Curse wasn't gimmicky or tacked on. It was the worst example you could've used, because that line drawing is still one of the best uses of the touchscreen on the DS. We can all call Yoshi Touch'n'Go a tech demo, but Canvas Curse is the game that Touch'n'Go was a demo for.

I have little to no interest in the wii- but I wish they would get some decent games-it might give wii users something else to do besides knocking the high definition consoles where the future is happening right now, its just like the gamecube all over again-no suprise really as it seems to be just a tarted up version in a new disguise saddled with old-gen,low definition muddy visuals. Mario is ok if miyamoto can ever figure out how to make a decent 3D camera as mario sunshine was painful! It just looks like its going to be home to promises of big things -always just around the corner- metroid and mario for christmas! woo! -draughts, kids movie-tie in stuff, spin-offs of the big franchises (rather than the true sequels), gimmick games and PS2 ports. I just cant see the appeal of it other than its cheap price and nostalgic trips down mario and zelda memory lane. the 360 doesnt cost that much more and in my opinion offers a future instead of some rose tinted view of the past. The old PS2 has more going for it than the wii- miyamoto (this god like developer) could perhaps play God Of War- and learn how an in-game 3D camera should truly work! (ooh blasphemy!) i.e with you- not against you. Gameplay and graphics-its not a choice between the two! I personally quite like both together. I dont want my brain training. I will never ride a bandwaggon. I will never wave a wand or a plastic nunchuck? I will never have a gaming session with my grandparents.(theyre too busy!) I dont believe in good corporations and bad corporations- theyre all the same- they all just want ya cash.But at least sony and microsoft live in 2007 and offer products from the HD era.

Unit:

"The only thing that restricts developers is their imaginations!"

Utter crap.

And so is that ridiculous BS about Gears of War looking and running on a vastly weaker system. I can't believe you'd honestly say that. You could maybe get it running half as well at the very end of the Wii's life cycle, it'd max out everything the Wii had, you'd have to cheat like crazy, and they'd have to start coding it NOW.

Time, money, and talent. That's what puts the kibosh on all that stuff, not fluffy words like imagination, heart, and desire. If you have a beefier system with beefier specs, you can eliminate time and talent from the equation, because the hardware makes up for it.

Rubang and idiot:

Learn to read. I called it "gimmicky", not "tacked on". And idiot, you tried to contradict me by using the exact definition of "gimmicky" that I gave the game to describe Kirby.

Reading. It's FUN-damental!

Rubang: Looks like I responded too hastily to you. You seem to at least have tried to respond appropriately.

Kirby is essentially every other platform game with running and jumping replaced with drawing a line. It was fantastically easy, and many times I wished it just was a regular platformer.

Yoshi Touch & Go was a tech demo. Pac-Pix was a tech demo.

Kirby was just a gimmick. Instead of having a remotely challenging platformer, all I got was a scrolling version of connect-the-dots, where the only time I felt I might have a challenge was the game's final boss. (Whom I still defeated without dying.)

"If you have a beefier system with beefier specs, you can eliminate time and talent from the equation, because the hardware makes up for it."

http://www.metacritic.com/games/xbox360/scores/

Look at the bottom of that page and explain how the hardware makes up for time and talent.

Rubang: Because an equivalent team given better hardware where you don't have to pull tricks to make it do what you want will be able to make a better game.

Don't try and point to the bottom of the barrel and laugh. The retarded kid's never going to dunk.

When you give him a trampoline, he gets closer, though.

Ok, I agree with the difficulty and connect-the-dots issues concerning Canvas Curse. I've played enough platformers in my day to breeze through it, but being able to draw my path instead of punch it in on a D-Pad felt like a breath of fresh air to me. New control schemes always interest me more than improved graphics.

I've been playing ADoM (ASCII graphics) for over 10 years now, and I still haven't beaten it. That game could tide me over not only until the Wii goes online, but until the sun destroys the universe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adom

Ok I won't bring up Bomberman: Act Zero if nobody brings up Red Steel.

@Ohjustsomerandomguy

To counter all your arguments:
-> Time and money: linked together. The more time devs put in a game, the better it will be constructed. But for that extra time, the devs must be paid. ALL of them.
-> Talent: is there in a certain degree, but with a bit of insight, there is bound to be something that you can do. Good at math? Go make algorhytms, good at design? start artwork. Good at analysis, start programming.

The morale your team has also is a DIRECT factor in your final product. Do not give me the crap of 'if you give them enough money, they will be exited', teams dont function that way.

Hardware does NOT eliminate time from the development process. A good analysis of the project, and knowledge of the system do. There are limits to the power of a system, but those limits are purely on shaders, the amount of pieces that fall of a building or how many action there can be at one given time.
I don't say that I dislike those, but 10 enemies with superb AI(which is programmed with some lines of code/algorhytms. And system can do that) beat 1000 generic models that die in an instant.

Don't come here defending your point once it has been taken down. I do understand the points in your argument, but they are not worked out. And, you seem to be totally unaware of how a basic team works.

Feel free to comment, kite

Kite: I've got a pretty darn good idea of how a project team works.

You're going in the wrong direction.

"The morale your team has also is a DIRECT factor in your final product. Do not give me the crap of 'if you give them enough money, they will be exited', teams dont function that way."

Gee. You don't say.

"-> Time and money: linked together. The more time devs put in a game, the better it will be constructed. But for that extra time, the devs must be paid. ALL of them.
-> Talent: is there in a certain degree, but with a bit of insight, there is bound to be something that you can do. Good at math? Go make algorhytms, good at design? start artwork. Good at analysis, start programming."

First off, I'm not exactly sure WHAT you want you designer doing making art. That's just dumb.

Second, you're not actually addressing the points. Read my reply to Rubang's brining up crappy 360 games. Given equal talent, better hardware will cut back (or eliminate some of) the time and talent needed for you to make a better game.

This is true because instead of being only a moderately capable programmer working late hours to finish optimizing one process, you can simply have that programmer go with his first inclination, and code that. The beefier specs means that he doesn't have to optimize as much, and that his coworker and still have HIS process unoptimized and still run. (Obviously, this is only true to an extent.)

If both of them grind to a halt trying to optimize their code, instead of writing the modules for other sections, in all likelihood they don't hit their milestones, and you reach your deadline with a game that falls well short of your ideas. Well, you can either go with delaying the game, or ship an incomplete, slow vision of what you had.

8 times out of 10 we get the incomplete vision.

Rubang:

I don't want new controls or better graphics. I want better gameplay. I don't want some "remix" of concepts I've already played, where a gimmick is shoehorned in to present me with a less than optimal version of a game I've already played before.

Look at Enchanted Arms. Ooh look! Instead of a standard RPG, I now get some hybridized tile-grid/ATB system that takes the same number of turns to kill an enemy, only it takes 3 times the actual game time while adding NO strategy! YAY!

That stuff bothers me. Instead of actually advancing the games we play, it holds us back, by revisiting the same rehashed concepts.

So what games with enhanced gameplay have you played recently on any system? You can go back up to 10 years to answer this question if you need to.

Rubang:

This goes back further than 10 years, but take a good hard look at Star Control 2. There's a fantastic plot, there's elements of resource gathering, real-time action combat, and this is the big one, a real sense of growth.

At the beginning of the game you can barely fight anyone. You'll lose over half your crew fighting a ship that's 1/10 the size of yours, but at the end of the game, you are an unstoppable juggernaut, the most powerful ship in all of known space and known hyperspace.

If you're looking for more recent examples:

Final Fantasy XII. The most significant advance in RPG gaming in years. It takes out the tedious parts of the game and allows you to automate it. The story could have been better, but allowing you to have the same amount of accomplishment you'd feel from grinding you could now get without having to deal with pauses, camera changes, and victory dances.

Soul Calibur II (Arcade):

I was so pissed off that this feature got taken away, but it added an MMO element to the fighting. This would be perfect for a 360 or PS3 version, where you fought through the ranks against AI versions of characters for the glory of your "country". The AI scripts were generated off of other actual human players who played on that machine before you, and if they were actually there, you played against them. Winner gained land for their country, and the loser lost territory. This was a fantastic blend of skill and a persistent world. Other games would follow that would build upon this. (car parts you could buy for your car in Initial D, Arcade Stage, V.2, characters for Tekken, etc.)

Gundam Arcade CCG:

This is going to throw you for a loop, because you're going to have a hard time visualizing it. You buy a pack of cards. You get mobile suits and parts, and you can customize them as you see fit. You get a set number of points to use in combat, so one side doesn't automatically dominate, and then your position, firing, movement, etc, is all determined by their position on an arcade tabletop. I haven't gotten into this one much, but it takes the addiction and strategy of a good CCG, a decent license, and the graphical, rendition of crushing defeat that only a game can provide.

If you want more, I can provide stuff all day. This is just the off the top of my head stuff.

since the wii is aimed at (and seems to be a success with) casual gamers, it doesn't need to pump out the games at too high a rate.

Casual gamers (either beginners, or people who have, you know, real lives) don't have time to play games 6 hours every day and burn through twighlight princess in a weekend.. infact i'd be willingto bet most wii owners are still happily playing their lauch title.

(which may be a problem for nintendo down the road. There are way more casual gamers.. but they don't buy anywhere near as many games as the hardcore kids).

The other main problem is that EA got it wrong, and ignored the Wii.. so they are now scrambling to catch up and make some games on it.. but its gonna take a while for those to come out.

(PS/ I thought NFS:C got reasonable reviews, and Farcry supposedly got the controls right.. just everything else wrong. )

(PPS/ I'm still waiting to get one too...)

@JustSomeRandom, Word, I haven't played any of those. Your description of Star Control 2 makes me crave Spore even harder. I'll have to czech that one out.

I can't get through all of the 360 games. I forced myself to stop playing R6V (got my Captain rank) and Gears so I could play through Dead Rising and Saints Row. DR is good but very frustrating and difficult to enjoy at times. SR is much funner than I thought it would be. Better than Grand Theft, though an obvious immitation. Not as much humor, but better. Still gotta get to NFS, Fear, and Crackdown now.

Honestly, there is barely anything on the Wii worth playing for me. I have Zelda on GC. Wii Sports is okay but hardly a replacement for the types of games I am used to and really enjoy. Same for PS3. Resistance is good, but that is it. There are many 360 games that I'd rather play. 360 ftw for now. Very glad I purchased one way back and have been getting such good gaming for so long. However, I do understand how the games lineup isn't for everyone. Certainly an abundance of the good old fashioned ultra-violence. I watched A Clockwork Orange last night. ;)

For me the it has totally worn off. I have several Wii games but none of them held my inerest for to long. Zelda was totally boring and Marvel UA was beatable in only a few days. And I do not want to play a bunch of mini games. So where is the software?
At this point my Wii is just sitting by my TV being un-used.

"I wouldn't make a big deal about the drought. The 360 and the DS both had it much worse,"

If you really think the 360 had a worse "drought" compared to the Wii, you are FLAT OUT WRONG. By this time in the 360's lifespan, in addition to the launch day titles, we had DOA4, Fight Night 3, Burnout Revenge, with GRAW two weeks away...and Oblivion a month away. The first six months of the 360 blow the first six months of the PS3 or Wii away completely, it's not even close. Not all systems are equal.

I'm already experiencing "buyer's Wii-gret," and I'm hoping it'll pass before long. But at least I know if it doesn't I can probably get a good amount of my money back on Ebay.

I like how GiovanniMcAdoo in post #50 tries to prove the PS3 has a lineup of strong titles that matches or surpasses the 360'.

...then, to counter the list of 360 exclusives someone else posted, he posts a list that is almost all dual-platform titles. Sorry moron - dual-platform titles won't sell PS3s. And it's cute that you think "F1 Racing" is going to be a big deal for the PS3.

@cg "I will never wave a wand or a plastic nunchuck"

Don't knock it 'till you try it! How can you diss something that you've never tried?

@OhJustSomeRandomGuy "And so is that ridiculous BS about Gears of War looking and running on a vastly weaker system."

Why is that ridiculous? Gears combines an FPS mechanic with an over the shoulder view, and adds ducking for cover. The N64 had the FPS mechanic covered in GoldenEye, the PSOne could render a 3rd person view in games like Tomb Raider. What's left? Ducking for cover - it may have taken two generations of game consoles for developers to figure out duck and cover, but you can't tell me that it requires two generations of increased computational power just to process duck and cover!

Every game on the 360 could have been done on previous generation consoles. Dead Rising? The PS2 handled combat with herds of on-screen enemies in the Dynasty Warriors games. Computationally there's not much difference between samurai and zombies. Saints Row? The PS2 had Grand Theft Auto III. Most 360 games have equivalents, if not direct ports, on last-gen systems!

You said "To a real developer, more horsepower = better AI, multiple paths through the game, customization, better physics, AND better graphics." Well, I'm still waiting for developers to offer better AI, multiple paths, and better physics. "When will developers use the 360's power for better gameplay?" is just as valid a question as "When will developers figure out how to use the Wiimote in a meaningful way?". At least there's pressure on developers to figure out the Wiimote.