European PS3 not so backwards compatible
After nations with the PS3 solved their case of jaggy backwards compatibility issues, it seemed the whole kerfuffle about PS2 games playing on the PS3 were over. Now comes word from Europe that the PlayStation 3 launching March 23 will not be fully backwards compatible."The backwards compatibility is not going to be as good as the U.S. and Japan models," said a Sony spokesperson. According to Sony, the European PS3 is designed differently from the Japan and North America models. Software will take over the backwards compatibility issues now instead of dedicated chips. Sony also says 98 percent of PS2 games are playable on PS3 in the U.S. and Japan, no percentage was given for Europe.
Alex Kwiatowski, of British market research group Vertical Market Technologies (who sounds more like a Sony flack), said, "I'm as disappointed as the next game player about the reduced backward compatibility, but even the most nostalgic, misty-eyed gamers will have their steely hearts impressed by the new features that PS3 games provide." If God of War II, a PS2 game, doesn't work out of the box -- there will be Hades to pay.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 4)
stubbymonkey @ Feb 23rd 2007 9:37AM
The f*cking c*nts!
Virtua Fanboy @ Feb 23rd 2007 9:38AM
Holy shit! Is that really Britney?
Sucks for Europe as usual. So much for $ony asswipes claiming "Victory in Europe!!!" LoL.
sheppy @ Feb 23rd 2007 9:38AM
"Not going to be as good"
Set up your database for UK players so they can know and plan ahead on what they'll buy in terms of BC. And what exactly is "not as good?" How many won't work, exactly?
Baby21 @ Feb 23rd 2007 9:41AM
Yeah it is PAL fault.
Not Sony's fault.
Virtua Fanboy @ Feb 23rd 2007 9:41AM
I guess the European PS3 is gonna work like the Xbox 360 in terms of bc w/software updates.
Mode7 @ Feb 23rd 2007 9:41AM
Who cares really? The playstation 2 had such a high shitty game ratiothat the odds of this affecting a good one must be astronomical.
By the way, does that pic not remind anyone of private Pile from full metal jacket?
FrankTheCrank @ Feb 23rd 2007 9:43AM
Wow!
That Britney photo is quite captivating. Yeech!
As far as PS3 goes. I don't give a crap, I already got mine!! Woooohooo!!! Bring on Motorstorm baby!!!
Steve @ Feb 23rd 2007 9:43AM
The use of a whiny, irrelevant, lazy, untalented, has-been, attention whore was the perfect choice to symbolize that market.
Kizzle @ Feb 23rd 2007 9:43AM
And once again, Sony talks smack about competitor's shortcoming, then fails to match even those lowered standards.
So our European friends pay more and get less. Well played.
DrXym @ Feb 23rd 2007 9:43AM
Sony really botched this press release. They had better clarify what they mean soon and not on March 23 because this is going to turn into a disaster otherwise.
While I still hope the EU PS3 will have a high level of compatibility through emulation, it's pretty hard to quantify how good it will be or not from that press release. For example, if fewer software BC meant 80-90% compatibility with further improvements over time that would be acceptable to most, especially if it covered the major titles. What wouldn't be acceptable is XBox 360 style BC where you get a very small and weird cross-section of games and no apparent effort to improve the situation over time. Sony has made repeated noises about being dedicated to backwards compatibility and they had damned well better deliver.
Virtua Fanboy @ Feb 23rd 2007 9:44AM
Ya $ony couldn't put any extra effort into the Euro PS3 and make it work w/PAL. It's not their fault. lol Doesn't matter at all anyway, people will still buy it.
Digi Smalls @ Feb 23rd 2007 9:55AM
has NOTHING to do with PAL.
Sony is saving money on the manufacture by taking out the PS2 hardware chipset and moving the backward compatibility to SOFTWARE. and yes, it's still charging more for it.
so update your excuses.
.
Xian! @ Feb 23rd 2007 9:57AM
Last night on Conan they did a Year 2000 bit. That picture was a great reminder.
"In the year 2000... Britney Spears will shave her head to reduce aerodynamic drag as she plummets from fame."
... So how does one shave a PS3, anyway?
Ian @ Feb 23rd 2007 9:57AM
"Yeah it is PAL fault. Not Sony's fault." -- baby21 (#4)
Actually it is Sony's fault. It has nothing to do with PAL and everything to do with the fact the European PS3 is shipping with a new hardware chassis that no longer has the EE/GS PS2 full chip set as in the US and Japan. Instead the EE/GS will be emulated by the Cell BE, much like the XBox 360 emulates the original XBox chipset.
Unfortunately, this means that 98% compatibility no longer exists and European PS3 users will be in the same boat for support as the 360 users are - waiting for less popular and/or more "hardware-tricksy" titles to gain support. In SCEE's press release they already speak of how PS2 compatibility issues will essentially take a backseat as time progresses and as they push the PS3 platform. Basically we're screwed. In addition, SCEE won't be releasing the BC list until March 23rd, the launch date, which seems strange considering they must have been mulling this change for a while (possibly the reason for the European launch delay) and should have already tested major titles.
What is most annoying is that this "cut-down" PS3 (in comparison to other territories) is still more costly than the EE/GS hardware versions elsewhere, so we're expected to pay more for less.
(and before I'm accused of being a XBot/fanbot/whatever, I'd like to point out I own most console platforms, including a Vectrex, and I buy the platform for the game, not the hardware itself, and a PS3 was on my eventual wishlist).
Jay @ Feb 23rd 2007 10:00AM
I don't think it's the PAL issue -- I think they removed the PS2 chip to save money, meaning ... the US and Japan are going to get these crippled units soon, too.
Sockatume @ Feb 23rd 2007 10:00AM
#15: It's not "cut down", it was always Sony's intent to replace the hardware back compatability with emulation at some point down the line. It's likely that the US and Japanese units shipping at the same time will also be software-based, and all new PS3s will use software emulation before the year is out if Sony's PS3 roadmap is to be believed.
That said it's still disappointing. I had hoped that all the bugs would be worked out by the time it came out over here, but it looks like they're adding some all-new complications so we don't feel left out.
Ian @ Feb 23rd 2007 10:01AM
It's also pretty ironic considering that SCEE's Phil Harrison continually attacked other platforms for not having full backwards compatibility... All I can hope is that Sony work damn hard on updating the emulator (apparently there is already a firmware update for the emulator on March 23rd) but I presume they won't work too hard until the new chassis is deployed in the US and Japan as well :)
SCEE official release here:
http://www.scee.presscentre.com/Content/Detail.asp?ReleaseID=4331&NewsAreaID=2
And backwards compatibility list will be here:
http://faq.eu.playstation.com/bc/
(though too late for people who've already ordered)
dethnight @ Feb 23rd 2007 10:01AM
So if this is just for Europe, that gives Sony even LESS reason to follow up, as they don't really give a crap about Europe anyway. If their BC list at launch is small/missing key titles, I wouldn't count on them working for as long as you own the console.
treeman @ Feb 23rd 2007 10:01AM
Oh my god...
Now I'm so glad I've decided to buy a XBOX360 a few month ago and not wait until march for the PS3...
Software emulation probably means that only "not resources intensive games" will work, so kiss FFXII and GoW2 goodbye.
Ian @ Feb 23rd 2007 10:03AM
#17...
OK, maybe it's not "cut-down" as such as it will be future hardware for everybody, but it is a bit shameful to charge the highest prices for a console that no longer claims 98% compatibility compared to the cheaper models in other territories, no? Surely the least Sony can do for Europe right now is drop the price just a little...
sheppy @ Feb 23rd 2007 10:04AM
"Yeah it is PAL fault.
Not Sony's fault."
Actually, no. It's because the EE/GS combo chip is being pulled from PS3 to cut expenses. This has two sides, actually.
Bad- Means bc is now software emulation. Unpredictable glitches, strange issues abound. PS3 has been relatively flawless except for a few minor issues. BUT, this now puts Sony in the same state as 360. Nobody knows how many or few games will be supported initially.
Good- Steps like this (among other cost cutting components) lend credibility to some of the recent buzz that PS3 production could go into the black as early as April which sets the stage for a price drop sometime near christmas. But this is obviously the best case scenario.
Digi Smalls @ Feb 23rd 2007 10:07AM
sheppy - you do mean good for Sony don't you?
because they are charging europe more for less capable hardware, and Sony already said it wasn't going to lower price in the states any time soon, even with this cost cutting measure.
.
Ian @ Feb 23rd 2007 10:08AM
#22... hopefully PS3 will drop in price, but I wouldn't count on it too soon...
""Whilst in the longer term these production related cost reductions will enable us to reduce the cost of PS3 to consumers (in the same way we have done with PS2 over its 6 year lifetime to date) SCE has no immediate plans for any price reduction on the platform." -- David Wilson, Head of PR, Sony UK, 23 Feb 07
Crono @ Feb 23rd 2007 10:10AM
Believe it or not, this could have been a good move on Sony's part, and could indicate a potential price drop in the near future if they start cutting out the PS2 hardware in US and Japan units as well.
Software emulation has the potential to perform better than the actual hardware, with better features. For example, look at SNES emulation on PC, with its hi-res mode and 2xSAL graphics filtering makes old sprite based games look shiney and new, with save states and online play. Even PS1 emulation has reached this threshold on PC, with PS2 emulation lagging only slightly behind.
If cell is as powerful as Sony claims it is, it should have no problem emulating PS2 and PS1 games with these features included.
I say this COULD HAVE been good, except that they state that BC will take a backseat to everything else. In my opinion, if you're going to do a software emulator for your old software, sit down and have a small dev team work on it for 6 months to a year. In that amount of time they should easily be able to have an emulator that runs 99% of all games, with full features and extra features.
To the inevitable nay-sayers: Yes, I know PS2 emulation on PC has taken litterally the entire PS2 generation to become viable, but the difference here is that Sony has the advantage of knowing all the ends and outs of the hardware they are emulating without having to sniff packets or intercept command code in memory, like the homebrew emu crowd does.
I fully expect PS1 emulation to be pristine at launch, however.
Jack the Ripper @ Feb 23rd 2007 10:10AM
The "bad news after bad news after bad news" trend continues. It is absof***inglutely mind boggling that Sony fanboys even exist as much as this company screws over its fanbase, especially those poor bastards in Europe. That Final Fantasy game, that must really be something, huh?
rfom @ Feb 23rd 2007 10:11AM
FINALLY the PS3 is catching up with the 360.
A big reason why its so expensive is the needless "quality" in the system
Inbuilt PS2 chip to ensure 100% BC vs the pathetic BC on 360: 30 USD
Far better build quality to avoid the massive failures seen in 360: my guess 50USD
Bigger Hard disc that doesnt fill up in six months with demos/downloads: 20 USD
HDMI: 10 USD maybe
Quieter, slot-loading disc: even if you exclude BR, that would mean 10USD extra
Out of the 200USD difference, that accounts for 120USD and the BR (700USD if you buy separately) is just 80USD!
So all Sony needs to do to make it a dream machine for xbots
1. Remove the PS2 chip, make a cheaply built console, put a smaller hard disc and replace BR with a noisy, cheap disc player
2. Instead of free multiplayer, add voice chat and charge 50 USD per year (250 USD / 5 years)
Together that would add 500USD/unit to Sony and give customers what they really want - but thats not enough.
They also need to stop making stupid creative games and focus on making about 20 generic shooter / shooter RPG games which have 5-hour single player and no plot,and need you to spend that 250USD on multiplayer (like Gears)
Finally, instead of supporting a console for 8 years like PS2, bring out new consoles in 4 years.
There - the formula is ready!!!!
Matt @ Feb 23rd 2007 10:13AM
Digi Smalls
Could be good for the customers to. The PS3 badly needs a price drop before a lot of people are going to buy it, and Sony's not going to do that until the cost comes down to a reasonable level.
Ian @ Feb 23rd 2007 10:15AM
#27 (rfom) gives away his identity....
He's clearly one of the master players at SCE and has just published the PS3 business plan. They've just implemented step 1, so not long to go...
rfom @ Feb 23rd 2007 10:17AM
Case in point: #20 treeman: So this xbot feels that PS3 software emulation justifies buying a 360...which also uses emulation!!!!!!!!!!!
And if you want to guess the cost of quality, check out isupply cost teardown where the cost of manufacture and components in PS3 is 200USD higher - much of it being on junk that only does useless stuff like ensuring that 20% of your consoles dont breakdown within six months.
Rob Holiday @ Feb 23rd 2007 10:18AM
How many times now has Sony put down the competition on a specific issue, only to do the same themselves???
B/C software emulation?
2 SKU's?
Hard drives in all units?
I know there are more, just can remember all of the times they are talking out of their @ss..
Ian @ Feb 23rd 2007 10:18AM
Also, #27 failed to notice in his trolling to try and prove PS3 is better than 360 that he said:
"Inbuilt PS2 chip to ensure 100% BC vs the pathetic BC on 360"
Nice, except in Europe we get pathetic BC on PS3 now as well. Note how in the SCEE press release it says "broad" for PS1 support and "limited" for PS2. I'd imagine that we're nowhere near the current 98% of older PS3 models. I think we'll be lucky to hit 60%....
Digi Smalls @ Feb 23rd 2007 10:21AM
i'm beginning to think rfom really IS resistance: fall of man. the only remotely "special" game out for PS3.
ironic, that resistance happens to be both a wwII AND science fiction conventional FIRST PERSON SHOOTER that went directly for xbox's call of duty and halo market. a lot of good that must've did for japan, sony's "base"...
so if you mean the 'winning' formula rfom, maybe you're right. because in order to succed PS3 is feature for feature following in 360's footsteps trying to catch up.
.
Dolla Dolla @ Feb 23rd 2007 10:22AM
So let me get this straight ...
They are removing the PS2 chip, which reduces cost ...
And they are charging Europe more?
:( Sorry, my European brethren.
FinalFan3 @ Feb 23rd 2007 10:23AM
Well that helps me decide not to buy a PS3. I haven't got a PS2 at the moment as my brother sold his to pay towards a 360. I was gonna get a PS3 to play some PS2 games cos I was gonna get a PS3 anyway, but now I think I'll just grab a PS2. Sony, when you act like this you deserve what you get.
Ian @ Feb 23rd 2007 10:27AM
#34 (Dolla Dolla) has hit the nail on the head.
Yep, SCE get to reduce costs by junking the chipset, whilst keeping the price high in Europe. Yes, I understand they need to start filling the gaping hole in their finances (which was not helped by the Japanese PS3 being subsidised to such a low price) but turning the screws on the European market does seem rather spiteful. It wouldn't be the first time though (and I'd like to point out that all the console manufacturers seem to treat us like a big bag of money that they can just dip into, it's not just Sony, though they are getting pretty damn good at it).
They could at least have the decency to drop the price a small amount considering we're getting a PS3 that - for now at least - is missing the functionality of models available in other territories at a lower cost.
Travis @ Feb 23rd 2007 10:28AM
#20: You're glad you bought a 360 because of this? You do realize the 360 does the exact same thing?
I do agree with the people who pointed out Sony has been badmouthing Microsoft for not having full emulation of old games, so this is pretty dumb.
However, if you want to look at the bright side, they now will have the capability to clean up PS2/PS1 game graphics. I've heard the 360 does this when you play stuff like Halo 1 or 2. Does suck that there isn't a price drop included with it.
Ian @ Feb 23rd 2007 10:29AM
As for profiteering, don't forget also that in Europe they are only releasing the more expensive 60GB SKU as they make a better profit margin... they have no plans at this stage to release the 20GB model...
Steve @ Feb 23rd 2007 10:29AM
For everyone saying this is what you get for living in Europe (or words to that effect), this is a major hardware change specifically for the cause of cutting production costs. Nothing to do with being in a different territory whatsoever. That, in turn, means that as soon as possible Sony will be making this change to ALL PS3 units otherwise it makes no sense whatsoever.
As for the state of software backwards compatibility, when even Sony's press release states the PS3 will play "a limited range of PS2 titles" and "a broad range of original Playstation titles" you can pretty much guarantee we're not talking about anything close to 50% as then the word "majority" would have been used. As it is, and based on the fact that there's been zero public acknowledgement of this change before today, the word "limited" tends to suggest a VERY low figure, especially as even the Playstation compatibility only rates a "broad range" of titles. In order words, forget backwards compatibility working on anything other than the launch consoles in Japan and the US for at least the foreseeable future for more than a handful of games.
I know that this is only personal experience and means nothing statistically but on hearing this news two of three people I know who are buying the consoles for themselves promptly cancelled their pre-orders. Why? Because they both have PS2's that are on their last legs and do not want to give up their sizeable game collection on that platform when they switch to PS3. The other individual has moved from the "it will take a pack of wild dogs to prise my PS3 from my cold dead hands" camp into the "If the price on ebay is decent I'll sell if not I might keep it or give it back, we'll see".
sheppy @ Feb 23rd 2007 10:30AM
"23. sheppy - you do mean good for Sony don't you?
because they are charging europe more for less capable hardware, and Sony already said it wasn't going to lower price in the states any time soon, even with this cost cutting measure."
If it's being rolled out for Europe, I expect these changes to start impacting other markets as well. This is a motherboard revision so it will make it to other markets. This will probably be one of the few instances a launch console has an advantage over later gens, unless the software emu adds upscaling, that is.
Anyway, I take the no price drop quotes with a grain of salt. They did, after all, come from Jack Tretton (and he was doing sooo good before launch....). If the situation continues to become dire for PS3, they will be forced into a price drop and I would much rather that happen when they are in the black rather than red.
As stated multiple times, I don't want any console to bow out of the race. Each one has strengths and weaknesses and at the end of the day, the lack of competition is never a good thing. Plus, I have money vested in all three.
Dave @ Feb 23rd 2007 10:33AM
Once again, Sony makes a pathetic attempt to copy Microsoft...
;)
bmac @ Feb 23rd 2007 10:40AM
This could be a major source of suck, but we have to wait and see how well the emulation turns out. If they have 65% or more compatible with better graphics ala xbox360, that would seem to be worth it, especially if that's a list that grows.
Besides, this has been in the cards for a while now, probably was the plan before they ever tossed the old chips in the new case. The fact that they are doing it with a whole market rather than phasing it in is the only surprise here.
Jdoki @ Feb 23rd 2007 10:41AM
First off... IF Sony ever shift all the current stock in the US and Japan :) I suspect the software BC PS3 model will become the norm. Sony always said they would eventually move to software BC.
Now, this raises the point of, why has it happened so early in the console's life? I really can't believe that Sony would add the necessary EE/GS chip(s) in the PS3 JUST to have a positive bullet point on their list of features for the initial release.
If they are dropping hardware BC already then why bother designing the PS3 with hardware BC at all?
With Sony losing a reputed $200 per console, the removal of the EE etc will not push them in to the black, and I'm certain that any savings they are making will NOT be passed on to us customers any time soon.
My PS2 is just about on it's last legs, so I was hoping that if I decided to get a PS3 I could go back and play Shadow of the Colossus, Final Fantasy XII and a few other old faves. Now I'm wondering if I'd be better off buying another PS2 and waiting to see what the real state of the Euro BC is.
Digi Smalls @ Feb 23rd 2007 10:44AM
sheppy - what are those strengths for PS3? i'm still waiting for my PS3's "strength". and i'm going to be waiting for a long time it seems. the majority of announced titles for PS3 will be or are already for my 360 as well.
thank god i got a launch unit then, because all i've been doing (since the last firmware fix at least) is playing PS2 games on it, something all european and future US PS3 owners may not be able to do with all their titles. in contrast to Sony's promises.
i would want Sony to survive if it was actually providing something compelling to consumers, but it's doing the opposite. asking more from the consumer for less. especially in terms of the competition. how does that benefit the gaming ecosystem? it doesn't, so they deserve their fate.
agreed, a monopoly is never a good thing, proof being Sony's dominance last generation is exactly what has wrought the PS3. but let another player come in that actually cares about it's market and knows what they're doing.
.
Jack of No Trades @ Feb 23rd 2007 10:45AM
AWWWWWWW...Poor babies :(
To Sony: Every country matters.
To Europe: Go buy a 360 in place of a PS3. You will not be dissapointed.
RogueStorm @ Feb 23rd 2007 10:46AM
So, where are the raging morons about Sony changing their hardware already and making it less functional? I mean, people went nuts at even the idea of Microsoft making a hardware update to add MORE features, but Sony gets a pass?
Jason @ Feb 23rd 2007 10:51AM
Wow, Europe, the last thing Sony needs to add is a kick to your nuts as you complete the purchase. Honestly, they just keep putting the boots to you, and if you bloody yobs cause them to sell out on launch day, you deserve it. Do no reward this shoddy treatment!
JJ @ Feb 23rd 2007 10:55AM
No Sony doesnt get a pass as evidenced by the reactions here, but i seem to recall them saying they were going to switch to software emulation when they could get it to work right.
Since it is software emulation, like the 360, it will allow for updates, which is a good thing. But they could of gone around announcing it better.
If anything rogue i think MS gets more of a free pass than anyone these days (although i think nintendo is quickly eclipsing them in terms of that)
I mean it does suck, but hey its almost march and then the gaming drought should be over soon for PS3 owners. Lets just hope the percentage isnt TOO much lower. (i'm hoping for an 85-90% ratio here but that may be asking too much)
MysticX @ Feb 23rd 2007 10:55AM
Does anyone give a rats ass about the PS3??? It´s a big paper brick for 5500DKK!!! Or 599euro! No way in hell that PS3 will dominate again.
sheppy @ Feb 23rd 2007 10:57AM
@Roguestorm... read the thread. Sony is hardly getting a pass on this.
@digi smalls
You really want me to list the PS3s strengths? In this thread? That would be a positive spin on a negative thread. The PS3 console DOES have strengths and those seem to be getting stronger in future software releases. But if you want me to sit here and say "PS3 is teh uberpwnage" against 360 and Wii, well, can't do it. PS3 is in last place but it has phenominal potential. Of course this all remains relative on whether or not MORE delays are in the cards as well if these games promised are any good (unlike UL:DK and Genji... but I never expected much from those anyway). And I know I'll be called a fanboy, but Sony was one of my favorite publishers of last generation.
Vidikron @ Feb 23rd 2007 10:59AM
Meh... this is likely an overblown issue (quite typical of the fanboys here at Joystiq). The move to software emulation has been expected for a long time. It will happen in the other markets as well. It's just starting with the units being shipped to Europe. My guess is that their emulation software will be improved over time via updates.