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Reader Comments (67)

Posted: Feb 23rd 2007 9:06AM erwos said

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KB+M zealots, unite!

But, seriously: wasn't there talk about different balancing mechanisms for the two interfaces? Can you comment on that?

My own guess is that the "auto-aim help" being given to the gamepad folks is vastly over-stated every time this discussion comes up, but insights would be nice.
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Posted: Feb 23rd 2007 9:17AM (Unverified) said

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those screens look great. this game has some potential. the idea of cross platform gaming worries me a little (can you imagine the "glitching" that will occur when you add a PC to the equation?)
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Posted: Feb 23rd 2007 9:26AM PoisonedAl said

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WASD! WASD! WASD!
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Posted: Feb 23rd 2007 9:29AM PoisonedAl said

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Dumb n00b question ahoy: How the hell do you register? I'm getting sick of waiting for my email server to fart out the confirmation mail along with a steaming pile of spam to go with it.
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Posted: Feb 23rd 2007 9:34AM KaneRobot said

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"My own guess is that the "auto-aim help" being given to the gamepad folks is vastly over-stated every time this discussion comes up,"

Indeed. That won't stop KB+M fanboys (Is this what we've come to? We have people insulting each other over their preferred controller type?) from claiming that it's "the only reason" the people with the controllers don't get annihilated.

Game itself still looks kind of iffy, hopefully it'll turn out ok.
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Posted: Feb 23rd 2007 9:55AM (Unverified) said

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"Whether we played with the Xbox 360 controller or the keyboard and mouse, our performance was never impacted with or the other."

Ugh, what an eyesore of a sentence.
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Posted: Feb 23rd 2007 9:40AM (Unverified) said

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lol at the screenshots with the big demon guys with tiny swords and guns.
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Posted: Feb 23rd 2007 9:43AM Twist said

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I used to do pretty good in the Unreal Tournament mod Tactical Ops using a Nintendo 64 controller (with the old Kernel USB Joyport adapter for Mac) with no auto-aim to help me any. It was a pain getting UT's settings right for the gamepad but once I did I was able to transfer my mad Goldeneye skillz into decent skillz in TacOps and some other UT mods. Switching to the controller took me from the lower half of the match rankings and put me in the top third (some of the people I played with accused me of using cheats because I improved so quickly). Normally when there is an option to turn off auto-aiming in console FPS games I do. Auto-aim is fine for getting body hits but if you want headshots you need to turn that crap off most of the time.

Anyway the thing that is really going to piss people off about this game is that the Windows version will probably retail for $10 less than the 360 version and the Windows users will get free online play while it will require a gold account on the 360. Also it is only a matter of time before it is as screwed up as other PC games like Counter-Strike with cheats, aim-bots, and texture hacks to make finding other players easier. Hopefully for the 360 players there will be a matchmaking option to limit it to other 360 users.
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Posted: Feb 23rd 2007 9:43AM (Unverified) said

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I remember setting up a USB controller with Halo controls for Quake, since I was foreign to KB/M. I really didn't do to bad. I think the controller makes for more stable aiming while in movement. btw, that is GREAT picture.
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Posted: Feb 23rd 2007 9:47AM (Unverified) said

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I probably won't get it because I don't want to hear the m/k users cry about getting killed by those of us using pads.
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Posted: Feb 23rd 2007 10:13AM (Unverified) said

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I don't get why there are people in this argument who claim absolutes. It's about the most ignorant thing you could do. And then when the two control styles are balanced, people cry about auto-aim. Can't people let it be and not freak out. K/M users sound like a crotchety old man insisting that black people shouldn't be in their restaurant.
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Posted: Feb 23rd 2007 10:15AM (Unverified) said

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Is it just me or does the person pictured on the right favor Starbuck?

Probably just me.

Anyway, I am in the keyboard/mouse camp.

I think if gamepads were superior then auto-aim would not be enabled by default.

ps. Just cause someone is better with a controller than you are with a kb/mouse, that doesn't mean the controller is better.

pps. If it really didn't matter and it was just up to preference then there wouldn't be any balance issues to worry about.
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Posted: Feb 23rd 2007 10:16AM (Unverified) said

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Holy shit...that top guy looks like one of the guys that comes into my store. He kinda creeps me out...
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Posted: Feb 23rd 2007 10:23AM (Unverified) said

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"K/M users sound like a crotchety old man insisting that black people shouldn't be in their restaurant." - Edge of Blade

Excuse me? K/M users are like racists? I dare you to repeat that sentence to a black person and explain to them why it makes sense to you.
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Posted: Feb 23rd 2007 10:26AM (Unverified) said

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After playing for 8-10 hours straight, the KB/M will give you carpal tunnel syndrome A LOT quicker than a controller. I'm a computer programmer who spends most of the work day using a computer. I've also spent at least as much time playing with the 360 controller. I have no issues with my wrists after using the controller. The KB/M on the other hand...
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Posted: Feb 23rd 2007 10:27AM (Unverified) said

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The greatest FPS controller of all time, hands down, is the Nintendo 64 controller with a custom analog stick. Everything you need can be easily accessed by every button on that controller, which, when held correctly and with the correct control set up, can have a finger on every button. The new X-Box gamepads are okay, too, but I'd rather have something that intricately and perfectly fit my hands, like ye old N64's. KB+M may be more precise for aiming, but for aiming and shooting at the same time? No.
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Posted: Feb 23rd 2007 10:37AM (Unverified) said

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The 360 contoller is the best. The KB+M used to piss me off in Unreal Tourn because I always had to move the jump command to the damn 0 key on the numberpad so my reaction time would increase. There were so many times that I had to jump and missed the damn jump key and died. But KB+M is better for Strategy games.
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Posted: Feb 23rd 2007 10:39AM (Unverified) said

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@ Twist
"Also it is only a matter of time before it is as screwed up as other PC games like Counter-Strike with cheats, aim-bots, and texture hacks to make finding other players easier. Hopefully for the 360 players there will be a matchmaking option to limit it to other 360 users."

I have a strong feeling that PC players will have to submit to a process similar to the way Live can check your 360 for mods/cheats/hacks before allowing you to play. You will probably have to submit to these tests before you are able to play in the Live Anywhere environment (and I'll bet that it will be tied to a Windows Live ID account login).
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Posted: Feb 23rd 2007 10:42AM (Unverified) said

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"K/M users sound like a crotchety old man insisting that black people shouldn't be in their restaurant." - Edge of Blade

Excuse me? K/M users are like racists? I dare you to repeat that sentence to a black person and explain to them why it makes sense to you.

John,

I'm "black" and I understand what he was trying to say. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I can see his point.

Did you assume that no black people would be reading this?

Just because a statement has racial undertones, that doesn't mean that it or the speaker is racist.

But please people, let's NOT turn this into the old racial debate again. Please.
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Posted: Feb 23rd 2007 10:43AM (Unverified) said

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Hrm...the deliberate nerfs to the Kb/M control scheme aren't something I am happy about.
I do hope it'll be possible to host PC-only matches with all those "balance tweaks" turned off.
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Posted: Feb 23rd 2007 10:48AM (Unverified) said

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"Also it is only a matter of time before it is as screwed up as other PC games like Counter-Strike with cheats, aim-bots, and texture hacks to make finding other players easier. Hopefully for the 360 players there will be a matchmaking option to limit it to other 360 users."
I am an avid PC online gamer, and in the two past years I've seen just two or three hacks in actual use.
If you aren't too good at playing a certain game, stop making up the "ZOMG OTHERS PLAYERZ USE HACKZ!!1!"-type excuses for that.
Online cheating is too risky nowadays with ranking systems like in BF series, or the anti-hack systems like that VAC thingie Steam uses. Noone wants to risk getting banned completely or at least just statwiped.
It's true that once, online cheating was common, but not anymore.
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Posted: Feb 23rd 2007 10:49AM (Unverified) said

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Oh yeah, back to topic.

I prefer the control pad to keyboard n mouse. The CP is accurate enough for me & more comfortable.

I most prefer the Wiimote & nunchuk above all else.
Then Gamcube
Then XBox S
Then N64

PS pads get no love (ill-placed left analogue stick)
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Posted: Feb 23rd 2007 10:59AM WiNGSPANTT from TopTierTacticsco said

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@19

ROFL does that mean you MOVED WITH THE ARROW KEYS????
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Posted: Feb 23rd 2007 11:06AM (Unverified) said

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@25

lol Yea im old school. arrow keys to move, 0 and ctrl key to jump, mouse to aim and shoot.
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Posted: Feb 23rd 2007 11:05AM Vidikron said

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This is issue is so stupid. MS should just allow M/KB to be used in 360 games and the entire issue disappears. The 360 has two USB ports right on the front! 360 owners could then use a controller or M/KB just as PC users have the same choice. Then everyone gets to choose the control method they prefer and everyone is happy. So damn simple.
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Posted: Feb 23rd 2007 11:15AM (Unverified) said

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About the auto aim when using a pad... the article states that they were getting their asses handed to them by a guy playing on the PC with a pad. I would assume that by playing on the PC he wasn't granted the ability to use auto aim?
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Posted: Feb 23rd 2007 11:16AM (Unverified) said

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@27:
That's not old school, that's dumb. Sorry, but WASD owns the arrow keys, and has always done. When I started playing FPSs for real (ie, with M+KB) around '94 I started using WASD from the beginning. I haven't really changed control setup for FPS games since, it works, and it works really good. With WASD, you could have had jump mapped to Shift for example, then it's very easy to pull off.
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Posted: Feb 23rd 2007 11:16AM sand0789 said

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KB + M is superior for twitch aiming. When you want a game that has pure 1:1 aiming and the fastest possible crosshair movement, KB/M is the way to go. That is it. That is the entire PC/console argument wrapped up in two sentences. In any other measurement, a controller is about equal or even better in many cases.

People make this so damn difficult. Most PC games control with the same aiming concept. Twitch band twitch bang. If you have a game like Shadowrun, where magic and maneuvering and tactics heavily outweigh precision aiming, the PC advantage disappears. It also makes a huge difference if your character's turn speed is limited to some kind of realistic speed. There is no limit on mouse turn speed, while there basically is one for an analog stick if you don't want the sensitivity impossibly high.

I can't believe how retarded people on both sides of the argument can be. PC games are typically designed around what is fun with a mouse. Twitch, super fast, precision aiming. If you port a game from PC over, it won't feel or play correctly. Console games are often designed to control differently. The time it takes to swing your gun and/or body around is significant. It isn't like Counterstrike where you can pull a 180 is 0.1 seconds.

If you took Gears of War or R6V and ported them to the PC, giving you unlimited turning speed and making guns perfectly accurate to the crosshair (R6V makes you pause to aim for accuracy), the games wouldn't be nearly as fun. They weren't designed to be twitch shooters. And if you slowed it down it wouldn't really feel right playing with a mouse. What if you move your mouse faster than your character is allowed to turn by the game design?
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Posted: Feb 23rd 2007 11:23AM (Unverified) said

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Mouse/keyboard is easily superior for aiming and for accessing functionality.

It's obvious too that shadowrun will employ software tricks to equal out the two types of control.

I don't know if anyone with a half brain realizes a developer can easily do this.

If they use large hit boxes then the advantage of a mouse decreases. If they use large crosshairs the advantge of the mouse decreases. They could do all sorts of tricks to make the types of control equal.

So this game doesn't 'prove' anything except developers are playing the part of the illusionist.

IT's pretty obvious why no player on the pc uses gamepads for CS, BF2, FEAR, etc.
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Posted: Feb 23rd 2007 11:25AM (Unverified) said

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@29

"around '94"

Yea thats "old school".

And mapping it to shift sucked because it was easier to use your index, middle and ring fingers on the arrows while your pinky rested on the 0 key.
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Posted: Feb 23rd 2007 1:17PM (Unverified) said

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I played it on a PC with the 360 controller, and it's indistinguishable from the console game. It also kicks ass.

In my opinion, all these debates about M&K and autoaim are academic.
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Posted: Feb 23rd 2007 11:27AM (Unverified) said

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I meant:

And mapping it to shift sucked because it was easier to use your pinky, middle and ring fingers on the arrows while your index rested on the 0 key.
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Posted: Feb 23rd 2007 11:34AM (Unverified) said

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Wow, using the arrow keys on the keyboard? I know that was default settings back in the days of quake 1 and earlier but that was outdated as far back as duke nukem 3d. Games have way too many actions that need to be mapped to easily accessible buttons these days. You cannot speak on behalf of the k/m people:)

Also, in the article it talks of having to click through radial menus on the pc. That sounds like a barrier thrown in to slow down the PC users but if its like most games, you can map pretty much everything to any button. They may not allow this due to balancing but if they do, i dont see any advantage with the controller. I'll try it both ways regardless even though I know I aim faster with a mouse. it definately has me curious.
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Posted: Feb 23rd 2007 12:21PM (Unverified) said

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I dont understand why M$ just doesnt make a keyboard and mouse for the 360. Does anyone have insight to this?
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Posted: Feb 23rd 2007 11:44AM farmok said

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@Jake - I'm glad to see someone here realise why it does not matter what input device you use on this game. When a game is designed to use both devices from the ground up, you work to eliminate any differences between the two.

as far as kb&m vs controller argument goes, its all about preference and the game.

I guess the best way to explain it is when you pick a car, do you go automatic or manual?
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Posted: Feb 23rd 2007 12:06PM (Unverified) said

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I agree with the idea that certain kinds of FPS games will favor different kinds of input.

The statements about turning seem to make the most sense to me. If you have to do a complete 180 turn in half a second, ala UT2k4 or something similar, I feel that the mouse is the way to go.

But in more tactical and 'slower' styled games, a controller would definetly be at less of a disadvantage. It might even be at an advantage in terms of making quicker, short distance adjustments in aim (not sure if I'm getting my point across... don't know how else to describe it). Just an idea, not sure if it'd be true.

Oh- and I don't believe anyone is genuinely "angry" or "militant" about this issue. As someone who counts themselves in the kb+m camp, it just seems rediculous to me to even think about using a control pad competitvely. OF COURSE it's assumed everyone has their own way of doing things, toe-may-toe/tuh-mah-toe, blah blah blah, so on and so forth.

But if you walked into a restaurant and saw someone using silverware with their feet- you'd probably tell them that your way was better. In addition, you'd probably think them a little silly. So what? Why should anyone even care about what other people think? Just do your thing- discussing the phenomenon doesn't make anyone a nazi either way.

The reason kb+m people come off as "high and mighty" (or acused as such), is because people who play FPSs on computers have probably already had plenty of experience with consoles and game pads. The people who are strictly game pad people don't seem to have the opposite experience. In my anecdotal experience... they just seem to be people who hopped onto the whole FPS thing when Halo came out for xbox. So yeah, I may come off "snobby" (...or whatever...) because I can say "Look, I've played both- and your controller doesn't come close..."

But it doesn't make me a nazi racist or whatever. Get over it and just discuss.
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Posted: Feb 23rd 2007 12:09PM Crono141 said

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Automatic, but that doesn't mean a guy with a manual of the same car won't be able to smoke me at the green light.

I still don't believe this discussion is happening. The only time the guy with a controller could beat an equally skilled guy with kb/m is if the kb/m guy has been gimped or the controller guy is given unfair advantage (like, but not limited to, auto-aim correction).

Personal Story time: My brother and I were playing a game of UT2004 against each other. We were both on PC's. He consistently kicked my ass all over the place. It wasn't even close. It was like a 5 or 6 to 1 ratio of kills.

Then I find out he's got auto-aim turned on, and I don't. I make him turn it off for a match, and it wasn't even close IN MY FAVOR.

Auto Aim is an unfair advantage vs those that don't have it. If everybody's using it, fine. But if the controller guys get it and the PC guys don't, that gimping the PC guy and giving an unfair advantage to the controller guy.
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Posted: Feb 23rd 2007 12:14PM (Unverified) said

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Is it just me or does that look like starbuck from BSG?
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Posted: Feb 23rd 2007 12:15PM sand0789 said

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To add to my above comments:

I am a long time console gamer, but have spent a good amount of time on Quake, Counterstrike, and BF2. I like both FPS control schemes, but prefer playing on a console. Not because I can aim faster, obviously, I just like it more. I have had the choice and go for the console over the computer. I believe what happens is you fall in love with one platform or the other and how they play.

I prefer how a console shooter plays. However, it is quite obvious that if a game gets 1:1 aiming, with your bullets hitting right on the crosshairs, with unlimited turn speed, and no accuracy loss while moving crosshairs, the KB/M is much easier, faster, precise in aiming and shooting.

I have a lot of experience shooting guns in real life. In real life, you can't be accurate while whipping your gun around. You have to stop it to aim or at least move it at a steady speed with your moving targets. You are also limited in how fast you can turn your body around. You also can't turn very far without adjusting your feet and really throwing your aim off.

I have all these experiences and real world knowledge in the back of my head when I play. When I play a PC game, the control interface basically forces you to move and aim as unrealistically as possible. While it is just a game, when you have real-life experience with it it can be annoying. With a console shooter, you are kind of limited to the realm of realistic possibility.

And it is hard to program realism into the mouse. The analog sticks limit you naturally to realistic-ish. To make a mouse work, you have to limit your turn speed in the game design. But, you can move a mouse as fast as you want, so if your turn speed in-game is limited it feels like you aren't in control because you will move your mouse faster with no increase in aiming speed.

This may be confusing to some but it really matters to me. It is just a game and fun is #1, but I couldn't survive off of just playing twitch PC shooters. I like them, but I need a realistic feeling game. The way a console shooter plays feels more believable to me. R6V is probably the most "realistic" playing game that I've been on yet. Now I just wish they'd get rid of the crosshairs altogether on it or at least make them really wide when you are "hip shooting".
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Posted: Feb 23rd 2007 12:19PM sand0789 said

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Newmiracle's comment a few back is right on btw. However, your analogy would have been better if you said "using chopsticks" instead of "using your feet". Nobody is trying to argue using KB/M with your feet is better. Same appendage, different tool, lol.
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Posted: Feb 23rd 2007 12:27PM (Unverified) said

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I find it hard to believe the kb/mouse people are getting beat by a controller, they must have not mapped the controls out well, or its some kind of console conspiracy!
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Posted: Feb 23rd 2007 12:28PM AirIntake said

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You know what's funny, KB/M users claiming that because a mouse is more precise, that all of a sudden the KB/M is more precise! Yes, the mouse is better, but the keyboard sure as hell isn't. You could argue that it has lots of buttons for customizability, but I'll just argue that so did the Atari Jaguar controller.

So to sum up, just because M is good, doesn't mean KB/M is good.
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Posted: Feb 23rd 2007 1:03PM (Unverified) said

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Jake, you're definetly right... lol. Thanks for the fix.

I agree with everyone talking about auto aim. I can believe that some people might be better with a game pad in certain games, but having auto aim in ANY way is a HUGE advantage. I would hope that the game wouldn't have auto aim only for consoles in multiplayer. If you're going to compare different input options... you can't have auto aim on one and not the other. In fact- if they add auto aim for the console that's kind of admitting that the game pad isn't as accurate and needs a 'boost' to be on the same level.

Kind of going off topic here, but I am looking forward to this game. Shadowrun is a really cool universe, and I'll always remember playing the SNES rpg. Had a brief moment with the pen&paper system before I gave up all that. So-mouse or pads... I'm hoping it'll be a great game.
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Posted: Feb 23rd 2007 12:50PM (Unverified) said

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TO all of you that ask why MS doesn't include KB/M support.

It's not MS, but the devs who decide the controls used for their games. There is a KB/M hookup for the 360.

http://www.joystiq.com/2006/11/27/xfps-lets-you-use-keyboard-mouse-on-the-360/

Besides, WHO WANT TO USE A KEYBOARD AND MOUSE WHILE SITTING ON THEIR SOFA? IT'S JUST NOT ERGONOMIC!
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Posted: Feb 23rd 2007 1:08PM (Unverified) said

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This all comes down to what you fall in love with as stated in an earlier comment. I've been a PC Gamer and a console gamer my whole life, and in my experience, you just can't match the comfortability of the M/K. I'm well aware it's awkward to get used to a different control scheme, but back in the 90's when we had the FPS Boom, once I started using the K/M, I never went back. The controller is great, but not for me, especially in FPS.

I wouldn't even think about playing ShadowRun if MS allows for auto-aiming with a controller. In that case, I sure hope the PC version can filter out such options in their servers. Like many people are saying, why MS won't just allow for a K/M is beyond me. If I had to guess, it's the way console games are programmed, and how they tend to be much much slower in pace, action, and difficulty vs. a PC counterpart. The M/K converters they make have all been flops and have never replicated the same experience on the PC, ie..slow moving.

If they really want to get a comparison of controller vs. M/K, let's get a counterstrike match on, I would wager my house, dog, wife, and Lexus that the M/K slaughters anyone using a controller, 10-0 in matches after all the dust settles.
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Posted: Feb 23rd 2007 12:59PM (Unverified) said

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"Yes, the mouse is better, but the keyboard sure as hell isn't. You could argue that it has lots of buttons for customizability, but I'll just argue that so did the Atari Jaguar controller."
Yes, but better in what ways, and, are they significant at all?
The full range of speed?
I haven't seen that much use for that in most console games. Even GoW has just two speed settings, discounting the roadie run. And some stealth-type games brought the gradual speed control to the PC via the mousewheel.
...And what are the other "advantages" you are talking about?
Oh, and also, the analogy with the Atari controller fails here. Those extra keys were added at the expense of player comfort. The availability of additional keys on the keyboard do not make it any less comfortable.
Of course, I wouldn't mind if someone actually started making keyboards with built-in analogue sticks for controller-like functionality for player movement, however, the advantages of such movement control model aren't really noticeable.
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Posted: Feb 23rd 2007 1:03PM (Unverified) said

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"TO all of you that ask why MS doesn't include KB/M support.

It's not MS, but the devs who decide the controls used for their games. There is a KB/M hookup for the 360."
Incorrect.
MS prohibits usage of KB/M controls in Xbox games. Individual developers aren't be able to influence this company policy any way.
Also, the Kb/M "hookup" as you referred to it, is next to useless in most games. It simply doesn't give you the same feeling of fluid control as Kb/M do on the PC.
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Posted: Feb 23rd 2007 2:05PM (Unverified) said

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People still use WASD? Really? Why do you even use the keyboard if you're going to limit yourself like that. Why not use it? Simple, really: it's not a natural position for your fingers. Even ASDF is a much better option (AERG, myself). Left mouse is forward, right mouse is primary fire. Also, mice have the advantage of often having extra buttons (mouse 5 is jump). Add hotkeys and piped keybinds to the equation and, even in the Physics-Dimension-of-Weightless-String-and-Frictionless-Ice, there's no way that this can even be a fair argument.
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Posted: Feb 23rd 2007 2:10PM (Unverified) said

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I just hope that the PC/Xbox 360 cross gaming with games like Shadowrun eventually opens the door to getting full keyboard and mouse support on the Xbox.
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Posted: Feb 23rd 2007 2:46PM arctikphox said

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Imagine if you folks all cared this much about things that matter?
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