Another side to Chris Hecker's duct tape rant
If you've followed the Game Developers Conference at all, you probably heard about Maxis programmer Chris Hecker comments that the Wii is nothing more than two GameCubes duct tape together (though, to be fair, that's a 0.5 upgrade from comments that the Wii is "GameCube 1.5"). We're willing to wager that "Product X is just two Product Ys duct tape together" is on track to becoming a popular phrase in gaming circles.Kim Pallister of Microsoft Casual Games has risen to Hecker's defense, which ultimately led to an apology we feel was somewhat coerced by his overlords at EA and Maxis. The major point in Hecker's argument is that having an innovative control system "should not give them a 'get out of jail free card' on the fact that they have delivered an underpowered machine," according to Pallister's interpretation. And by underpowered, Hecker is referring to computations and not the graphics system, which puts his rant in line with what he said last year that the PS3 and Xbox 360 also underperform in terms of computational power while focusing on a graphics-heavy system.
We're not going to take sides on his point that Nintendo needs to "recognize and push games as a serious art form," though the statement does make for a great discussion. We will say all three companies have pushed for more involvement with independent developers. (Microsoft has Castle Crashers and Roboblitz, Sony has flOw and LittleBigPlanet and Nintendo has Line Rider and possibly Telltale's Sam & Max.)
Don't forget about the heap of praise that the IGDA community gave Hecker just last year after winning the Community Contribution Award. Though, to be fair, that award is just two IGF awards duct taped together.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Mark @ Mar 12th 2007 1:18PM
Please... Please.... check grammar and spelling.
Duct TAPE rant... in headline, and Product X is TWO product Y's taped together...
Thank you
required @ Mar 12th 2007 1:19PM
I've heard that the DS is two Gameboys duct taped together.
NintendoFanbot @ Mar 12th 2007 1:24PM
HE WASN'T FORCED TO DO ANYTHING.
IF YOU READ WHAT HE SAID IN HIS ORIGINAL SPEECH HIS 'POINT' ABOUT "NINTENDO WANTING TO ONLY ***MAKE*** FUN GAMES" VS MS/SONY WEBSITES ***PREACHING*** TO YOU ABOUT ART+VIDEOGAMES.
IT WAS AN ATTEMPT AT SATIRE. Even I didn't catch it until 5 or 6 reads. If there were an audio or video transcript maybe people would notice it better.
Still, the delivery was sloppy. At least there was an admission on his part for causing misinterpretation.
As for the blog, 'minimalist design' even on Wii, is laughable tripe. Moore's law does not account for the human capacity for problem solving. Not to mention this is CONSOLE GAME DESIGN we're talking about. Machines that will be 'obselete' in 1 or 2 years.
ALL the 'most artistically ambitious' games would be on PC if power was such a big deal. It's baloney.
evilplushie @ Mar 12th 2007 1:25PM
pfft. Hecker may have some good points but he was waaaay out of line, especially considering he could be considered to be representing his company when he said those things. No.1 rule of being a white-collar worker, don't make stupid comments when asked to speak about something -_-
Jack of No Trades @ Mar 12th 2007 1:25PM
They wouldn't have got so upset if it wasn't the truth.
a guy @ Mar 12th 2007 1:26PM
Also, "duct *taped* together" (messed it up twice in the first paragraph) and *Telltale* in the penultimate paragraph.
Myke @ Mar 12th 2007 1:27PM
I have an idea, lets get the fanboys riled up over the same story for a THIRD time!!!111!1!!1111
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
Derbeste @ Mar 12th 2007 1:34PM
So basically what you're implying now, is that another guy is mad because what he PERSONALLY likes about gaming has been ignored by ALL THREE major consoles.....
This guy likes AI. Fair enough.
But not EVERYONE does.
Some people like pretty graphics. (Sony and MS fans)
Some people feel that new methods of interaction make a bigger difference than the previous two (Wii fans)
Some people just like gaming online no matter the control scheme or graphics (WoW fans).
OMG!!!
It's like their are different strokes for different folks or something!
You don't like blondes!?? You NOOB! Everyone knows blondes are superior to any other color of hair!
Seriously folks. It takes all types. That way, everyone gets laid.
I fail to see how him being a developer makes one damn bit of difference.
btw...as Myke said already...stop the flame bating. It's getting embarrasing.
Todd @ Mar 12th 2007 1:35PM
Hecker is an idiot, or he must have been drunk. I'm sure his PR must have been all over his ass. Why do they let this guy out in public if he's going to say asinine comments?
Gaming should always be about having fun and enjoyment. Good graphics do not guarentee fun. Even before high powered grills, game system were sufficiently powered and pulled off amazing games which are highly remembered. If Hecker is unable to produce such games with what is available, then he's a horrible programmer with poor vision. For those people who believe that a high powered machine guarentees a better gaming experience, you're blind to the truth and are better off ignorant.
fwacce @ Mar 12th 2007 1:36PM
You could say the same thing about the DS. That it's just a GBA with a cool control system. You could certainly say by today's standards that the SNES is a very underpowered machine. However, the fact is that both systems have incredible games on the systems. If graphics and art are what you base a good game on, then go watch a movie or some anime. However, if you want to actually PLAY a game, then the quality should be based on how the fun the game actually is. Period.
This goes for any system, not just Nintendo systems.
Paul @ Mar 12th 2007 1:41PM
"Kim Pallister of Microsoft Casual Games (...)"
Myke @ Mar 12th 2007 1:41PM
Joystiq is just two issues of EGM taped together!!!
a dirty bastard @ Mar 12th 2007 1:43PM
..........
Jack of No Trades @ Mar 12th 2007 1:44PM
"For those people who believe that a high powered machine guarentees a better gaming experience, you're blind to the truth and are better off ignorant."
High power machines will alays increase the game experience. Better AI/enviroment/sound/graphics/ atmosphere will draw the player in a consume them with interactivity beyond a wiimote can offer.
Ken @ Mar 12th 2007 1:46PM
LOL @ Myke you win this round!
donna d @ Mar 12th 2007 1:47PM
Having been at the Rant session at GDC...
I find it sad that people focus more on the "Two Gamecube's Duct-Taped Together" rant (which was obviously presented tounge-in-cheek), then the Vivendi motivational speech cleverly disguised as a rant about how developer's should volunteer more within their communities to give the industry a stronger reputation amongst the non-game community (i.e. the rest of the world).
As an industry, we can encourage middle and high school youths to go into math & science to transition them into careers in games. Or we can whine like immature fanboys and wonder why no one takes us seriously.
Jake @ Mar 12th 2007 1:47PM
I think his vulgar statement was what really got him in trouble; the duct tape one is just the one that got popular. Had he said that about the Playstation 3, nobody would have gotten angry. The fact that it is basically true (figuratively, not literally), the Wii is maybe two or so gamecubes power-wise, is what got people mad. The controller is what makes it different from the Gamecube, not the system.
But people need to really respect his right to express his opinion as a developer and at least understand he was trying to be funny. If he hadn't swore, he wouldn't have gotten in so much trouble. But people would still be crying about the duct-tape comment, which I thought was funny, though quite non-creative. If I were a developer that had been developing all through last gen, I wouldn't want to work on a game for the Wii. The controller would be fun to tool around with, but the coding and development side really is another 5 years of Gamecube development.
required @ Mar 12th 2007 1:49PM
"If graphics and art are what you base a good game on..."
No one does this. The fact is people judge games based on how fun they are - and great graphics can be part of this fun quotient - if they were not people would have never moved on from pong.
So please stop repeating this "graphics are no fun" sillyness. My hunch is that you do this because your platform of choice doesn't support the same level of graphics as the other platforms.
Ken @ Mar 12th 2007 1:49PM
Hey Jack,
Not everyone thinks like you bro. I think I was more into Twilight Princess (Hell, even Elebits) than I was Gears of War.
Don't get me wrong. Gears of War is a phenomenal game. And I'd by lying if I said it didn't deserve many awards. But I was definitely pulled into TP a lot more.
Hell Oblivion, in my honest opinion, was a terrible game. The entire thing felt like a chore. But that's just me, and I can see why everyone thought it was a great game.
Oh, and on topic:
Oblivion was just two Morrowinds duct taped together!!
Michael @ Mar 12th 2007 1:51PM
Wii is an over clocked Gamecube with a new controller. Thats about it. I already bought a Gamecube when it first came out, I'm not about to buy another one just for a controller that'll get old after the newness wears off.
Jack of No Trades @ Mar 12th 2007 1:52PM
LOL
but at least the 360 is 8 xbox's taped together and the PS3 is 10 PS2's taped together compared to 2 gamecubes......ewww
JodyAnthony @ Mar 12th 2007 1:53PM
you people depress me.
Derbeste @ Mar 12th 2007 1:56PM
So Michael....
What are you gonna do after the newness of HD wears off?
EVERYTHING gets old......including fanboy comments.
NintendoFanbot @ Mar 12th 2007 1:58PM
"As an industry, we can encourage middle and high school youths to go into math & science to transition them into careers in games. Or we can whine like immature fanboys and wonder why no one takes us seriously."
I don't know, for some reason I have little faith in the "industry's cutting edge" when all that I've seen coming out of this "debate" are people backing up an argument that was supposed to be satiricil.
I'd rather like to fight rediculocity with more rediculocity.
Jack of No Trades @ Mar 12th 2007 2:02PM
"What are you gonna do after the newness of HD wears off?"
I will let you know when i'm done playing Banjo-Kazooie, Mass Effect, GT5, Eternal Sonata. I think I might play some more awesome games that come out that don't need a wiimote.
Ian @ Mar 12th 2007 2:03PM
So I actually have to speak up for Chris here even though I don't agree with his overall point that the Wii is crap. Everyone seems to assume that he is slamming Wii's graphical capabilities. I see tons of comment like "He should know that it doesn't take great graphics to make a great game!" Chris (as a Spore dev) is actually interested in CPU horsepower for reasons other then just graphics.
For example, Spore is going to require a fairly hefty CPU to run, but not due to high-end graphics. Things like high level AIs also require massive amounts of horsepower, power that the Wii may never be able to provide. Also, game programming (like all programming) is currently moving to a multi-threaded model that works best with multiple core system. Wii is going to be the odd duck out as the only system still based on a single core CPU. Which will mean that new AI and Graphical concepts will be hard to transfer to it from the PC, 360 or PS3.
I'm still going to buy one myself (as soon as I can find an unbundled one) but I do wish that they had beefed it up a little bit. Considering that it is totally sold out everywere at $250 would it have really hurt Nintendo so much to add in a dual-core CPU and boost the price up to $300 or $350? I know that Nintendo doesn't want to play the "who has the best graphics game" with Microsoft and Sony, but the lack of a multi-core CPU is going to hurt it down the road. Think like the N64 still being cartridge based while Playstation and Saturn moved to CD. The N64 still had some great games, but some games were just impossible on it due to storage size (FFVII). The Wii is going to find itself in a similar situation.
Jake @ Mar 12th 2007 2:03PM
I don't understand why we make so much fuss over a system built for non-gamers in a gamers forum. If it were really good for gamers, then it wouldn't have satisfied its goal of being good for non-gamers.
Todd @ Mar 12th 2007 2:04PM
@Jack of No Trades
I'm guessing you didn't fully read my response.
"For those people who believe that a high powered machine guarentees a better gaming experience, you're blind to the truth and are better off ignorant."
...and yours...
"High power machines will alays increase the game experience. Better AI/enviroment/sound/graphics/ atmosphere will draw the player in a consume them with interactivity beyond a wiimote can offer."
So am I to believe that you ARE guaranteeing that a high end machine will result in a better gaming experience? Is this a fact you are stating, or mere speculation and opinion?
Derbeste @ Mar 12th 2007 2:05PM
yeah....
#1 Who asked you?
#2 You are easily amused.
#3 Those games would play just as well in SD
#4 I'm glad you can afford all the HD TVs PS3s and these awesome games....Some of us work for a living and don't get to drive around our parents car.
#5 Your "newness" just wore off too.
NintendoFanbot @ Mar 12th 2007 2:06PM
I don't need no stinkin HD to play Banjo-Kazooie.
You heard me. >:)
But good luck to Rare on that.
Jack of No Trades @ Mar 12th 2007 2:09PM
@ Todd
With more power you can do more things. If the Wii had 360/Ps3 power (and 360 controller as a alternate scheme) imagine what type of games we wcould be playing. We would have Mass Effect one month then Mario the next. It would be the perfect console. High end graphics with high end controls.
Evan @ Mar 12th 2007 2:12PM
Why is it assumed that the Wii can't handle "AI"? The software to interpret Wiimote hand gestures on the Wii, and the software to recognize handwriting on the DS, are among the most complex and sophisticated algorithms in any game. They are the kinds of algorithms that acclaimed professors spend years researching and include math that only a Ph.D. student can decipher, and yet the Wii runs those algorithms without a problem. If a Wii can crunch the math to recognize hand gestures, then it can certainly tell a badguy what to do!
Advanced AI is not actually processor-intensive - AI algorithms are very complex, however a game might only have to evaluate them a few dozen times a second (compared to 3D geometry, where the equations are very simple but have to be calculated millions of times a second). Furthermore, we've seen good AI in PC games, like Black&White, that can run on old PC hardware that's less powerful than the Wii!
The problem with AI is not the hardware, it's the developers. Good AI requires a Ph.D. level of expertise, and most game developers do not have that kind of expertise on their staff, so they resort to using dumb brute-force techniques, or scripts, or excuses. It's Chris who can't handle the math, not the Wii.
Jack of No Trades @ Mar 12th 2007 2:13PM
@ Derbeste
#1. You did.
#2. Yes I am.
#3. Yea, only on a high powered console.
#4. I rent to own so sorry no burn there.
#5. huh?
NintendoFanbot @ Mar 12th 2007 2:15PM
Even as a Nintendo fanboy, I would NOT pay for a $400+/- console. I would not pay for games over $50 when they were doing so well at this price.
In my opinion the PS3 only wishes that it was a 360 and a Wii duct-taped together.
Myke @ Mar 12th 2007 2:15PM
Let me ask you all a question. Especially Jack and a couple others. What would YOU want out of the Wii? Ok, Nintendo had three options here. Blow the horsepower WAY up, concentrate on graphics, AI calc, and the whole 9 yards and maybe modify thier controller a little bit and the slap the system out the door. Wait...no....we have that, it's called the Xbox 360 and it's a great system on it's own. OH! I got it!!! They could push an emerging HD format and stand by it AND blow the horsepower out the door, creating an entertainment powerhouse that doesn't focus on games as much as proving that we need gigantic storage capacities AND then charge $500 or $600 for the system, oh and the public wants games that KINDA use motion control, but developers can still fall back on thier traditional control scheme since the basic layout of the controller hasnt changed for 3 generations now....wait, no, we have that, and it's called the Playstation 3. OR they could take a HUGE chance by putting out a system that basically gives developers no other choice but to innovate and come up with new ways of doing things. So they said: It should probably be affordable since we want new gamers to join. We want this to be a gateway console. It should appeal to everyone. And given the fact that most people are going to be looking at the system as a game system rather than an entertainment center like most companies would like you to, we should probably let them decide which side of the HD war they want to be a part of. Yeah, and that's called the Wii and it's sold out from coast to coast. Sorry, but another expensive, enormously powerful system isn't exactly what people were looking for, we got 2 to chose from in that regard. Nintendo said they wanted to shake up the industry and it would appear that they have done just that...
Finn @ Mar 12th 2007 2:17PM
"But people need to really respect his right to express his opinion as a developer and at least understand he was trying to be funny. If he hadn't swore, he wouldn't have gotten in so much trouble. But people would still be crying about the duct-tape comment, which I thought was funny, though quite non-creative. If I were a developer that had been developing all through last gen, I wouldn't want to work on a game for the Wii. The controller would be fun to tool around with, but the coding and development side really is another 5 years of Gamecube development."
http://forums.gametrailers.com/showthread.php?t=68776
look the truth is, developers are concintraiting too much on how a games graphics look, and not spending enough time on the story and gameplay (not all but some)... Even mighty gears of war which should disprove this DOESN'T because the story is trash. Does that mean if they didn't spend the money to make it look like that the story would be better, YES.. yes it does and it's things like that that make me like my wii even more (even if I like Gears)
I'm not saying developers are doing it justice yet, but part of the idea of the wii is the fact that it SHOULD be easy for developers to get used to coding for (because it is simliiar to the gamecube in that manner) and then they can concentrate on just making a good game. Now this hasn't happened to much yet, but it's part of the plan.
Part of the idea for me anyway is that mabey they all went a little to fast into this generation, mabey the PS2 still selling like it is, is an indication that people just want good solid games. (although scarface sold a lot too lol)
Just because developers want to use new technology does not always mean they should. I think it would have been nice if somebody (other than the RE4 creators and factor 5) made gamecube games that were the best the system could perform.
Why the hell should we assume they can push a 360, if the couldn't push a gamecube.
Marty @ Mar 12th 2007 2:18PM
Personally, I don't think the Wii should be considered "underpowered." It is what it is... there is no industry standard.
Dolla Dolla @ Mar 12th 2007 2:19PM
Interesting flip, Jack. The Wii has hign end controls? So, Nintendo did exactly what they wanted to do: create a complementary system. A system that hardcore and non-gamers alike can enjoy.
Sounds like a win-win for everybody. And it's cheap, too, so you can still get your HD system. What's the problem?
Oh, right ... nothing.
james @ Mar 12th 2007 2:20PM
@ Evan@ That was the best post I have ever read on Joystiq.
As if you need a cell processor to tell a bad guy to hide behind a wall. I still think the AI in Pro Evolution Soccer is the best I have seen and that runs fine on the PS2.
It's the graphics the PS2 struggles with.
required @ Mar 12th 2007 2:22PM
"look the truth is, developers are concintraiting too much on how a games graphics look, and not spending enough time on the story and gameplay"
Look, the truth is that some developers are spending too much time on what they think is a good story and what they think is good gameplay and completely forgeting to polish their turd into something that at least looked good.
WizarDru @ Mar 12th 2007 2:24PM
When did video gaming become a zero-sum game?
"High power machines will alays (sic) increase the game experience."
Then why aren't we all playing on PCs, instead? High power machines CAN increase the experience....but I'll take Zelda: Twilight Princess or Catan on XBLA over Motorstorm, for example. Am I digging Gears of War? You betcha. But it's not the graphics that are the reason I love it so much...it's the super-refined gameplay. Notice that the biggest thrill people have gotten over the PS3 is LittleBigPlanet, because it looks so Damned FUN.
"Considering that it is totally sold out everywere at $250 would it have really hurt Nintendo so much to add in a dual-core CPU and boost the price up to $300 or $350?"
Uh, yeah, it would have. First off, no one knew that the Wii would be this successful. Heck, just look back at Joystiq less than a year ago...prior to E3, the naysayers were out in force. And while Sony and Microsoft can afford a console to lose money, Nintendo can't, because that's pretty much all they do. One of the Wii's strong points is that it IS so inexpensive, it sells much better. Putting it on the same cost level as the Xbox 360 would be disastrous, better processor or not. The gaming audience they're courting wants simplicity and isn't as concerned with the graphics. All those grandparents playing Wii Sports weren't tut-tutting the lack of an anti-aliasing chip.
Jack of No Trades @ Mar 12th 2007 2:25PM
@ Myke
Whats wrong with having both great graphics and controls?
I havn't seen any Wii revolutionary games on horizon.
Some people like better games than just Mario/Zelda.
I would play Blue Dragon & GTA anyday over Mario/Zelda.
Myke @ Mar 12th 2007 2:27PM
Jack: COST, did you even read my whole post? $ = Power in so many ways it's not even funny. More power = Most cost, which they didnt want because they're not going for hardcore gamers primarily, they want to attract gamers. Get it?
Crono @ Mar 12th 2007 2:29PM
Thats great jack, but I'd rather play Zelda and Mario over GTA and Blue Dragon.
I'm I a tool for wanting to? No. Are you a tool for wanting GTA instead? No. Are you a tool for thinking I'm a tool? Absolutely.
Finn @ Mar 12th 2007 2:30PM
"Whats wrong with having both great graphics and controls?"
apsolutly nothing, thats why I like my wii
Jack of No Trades @ Mar 12th 2007 2:31PM
So the arguement we all are having is pointless. The Wii is in a different class than the PS3/360. 360/PS3 games shouldn't be compared to Wii games and vice verca. One is for casual gaming the others are for the entire media experience.
Myke @ Mar 12th 2007 2:34PM
Jack: Most people who own a Wii already own/plan to own one of the other two anyway. That's what you don't seem to understand. The Wii is bringing in gamers who will possibly eventually pick up a 360 or PS3 when they otherwise wouldn't have. In about 2 or 3 years, the Wii might end up having sold the most consoles, AND being the best thing that ever happened to Microsoft and Sony. Nobody is getting into gaming for the first time by purchasing a PS3, get real, it's an aquired taste to sit through sh*tty games and wait and wait for your perfect game to come along once or twice a generation. Nobody wants to spend $600 dollars to see if gaming is the right hobby for them. So they turn to the Wii.
Jack of No Trades @ Mar 12th 2007 2:38PM
@ Myke
I like that last post. You are 100% right. Its a gateway console.
Pawsie @ Mar 12th 2007 2:38PM
I think the real question would be.. do video games need to be pushed forward to achieve greater things, or are they okay where they stand.
For the past 6 years we've been having fun with the PS2... then Xbox 360 came forward. So far, the PS2 out ranks the 360 because there's more of them. Honestly.. if they didn't make a new system, we all would still be playing the old. This generation crap is being pushed.. it's not necessary... if it was, we wouldn't be playing hand helds of the previous generations.
JodyAnthony @ Mar 12th 2007 2:39PM
Jack, Myke, Crono, et al: doesn't it get boring arguing the same points in every single post on this website day in and day out? you're never going to convince eachother that you're right and they're wrong.