Are gay characters becoming a 'non-troversy'?
For the second year GLBT members of the gaming industry had roundtable discussions to explore their place in the business. Issues like an International Game Developers Association special interest group were discussed, along with establishing Human Rights Campaign corporate equality index numbers for all game companies. The developers who didn't have domestic partner benefits at their companies believed that it was a simple oversight, not a decision point, by their employer. One of the stand-out moments was the discussion over the 'non-troversy' of gay game characters.Designer Jeb Havens who led the roundtable sessions coined the "non-troversy" phrase to explain the Bully boy-on-boy kiss. An incident that many believed would blow up, but ended up being a bullet point. The non-troversy continued last week with Peter Molyneux's announcement that gay relationships would be allowed in Fable 2, even though it was an "accident" in the original Fable. As the roster of gay characters increases, which according to a recent study are wanted much more in RPGs, could gay characters become non-troversies in games like a Gears of War sequel? The film V for Vendetta was used as a prime example of how the gaming industry could incorporate gay issues that don't distract from the game's story, but actually help propel the plot.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Zysdasdsa @ Mar 12th 2007 6:22AM
gay characters have been common for many years jrpg, just look at final fantasy.
CTU Kyoto @ Mar 12th 2007 6:36AM
I wouldn't say gay characters have been common in J-RPGs so much as characters fitting the Japanese public perception of gay people – cross-dressing wannabe women who are fit only to laugh at, not to be viewed sympathetically or have their relationshops accepted.
Savok @ Mar 12th 2007 6:38AM
Christ I'm sick of things having an agenda.
Look the story is the story, if gay people are in the story then they're in the story, if not, they're not, it's all very simple. Stop talking about it and write the stories you want to write, that's equality.
silkylove @ Mar 12th 2007 6:39AM
It's still an issue. Look at the movie 300(which is marketed towards fanboys and gamers). It's immensely homophobic and yet immensely homoerotic at the same time. Fanboy's are loving it even though it's very homoerotic. The homophobia of lead characters like Leonidas and the vilification of flaming gay characters like Xerxies helps the fanboys to feel secure while sitting through a two hour movie full of greased up men in leather MANties.
Huricos @ Mar 12th 2007 6:41AM
Is it now going to be a controversy that it has become a non-troversy?
J @ Mar 12th 2007 6:57AM
Zelda:TP was chalk full of them. I like the game but stuff like Tingle (from WindBreaker lol), the mail man (ewww in those friggin short shorts), and the malo mart crew really look fruity. Sorry its just my opinion. I personally would like it if it isn't so pushed in your face in games in general. If there are gay characters thats fine but just don't go over board. And I certainly don't want to have to sit through a dude making out session in a game. They can skip that part for all of us.
hegemonyhog @ Mar 12th 2007 7:23AM
I just find it funny that of the "gay" characters from games and film mentioned here, almost none actually did anything even remotely relating to sexual activity with someone of the same sex. They simply screwed around with gender identity, which isn't the same thing as sexual identity.
Xerxes, for instance, wasn't gay. He was just adorned with jewelry. The Wind Waker crew wasn't gay (as far as we could tell).
300's a great example, though - a movie with a decidedly homophobic bent that avoided an incredibly homoerotic practice despite its relevance to the character and actions of the Spartans. Before each day's battle, the Spartans would brush each other's hair and oil each other's bodies...not because they were preparing for an orgy, but because they were preparing their bodies for death.
I look forward to the inevitable stream of comments following this one complaining about special rights for gays and lesbians, accompanied by people proudly declaring their bigotry and wondering why everyone's so "PC".
Aaaaaaand...go!
Rubang B @ Mar 12th 2007 7:31AM
My body better be greased as hell when I get to the big sleep. You see, the gates of hell are very tiny, and if you're not greasy enough, you won't be able to slide right through.
Rubang B @ Mar 12th 2007 7:38AM
Well the last Queer-related post here at Joystiq got 169 comments. Who wants to bet this one breaks 200? I'm going to bed, but I'll be back tomorrow to play catch up! Good night everybody.
hollywooda @ Mar 12th 2007 7:48AM
I don’t see why writes should feel pressure to put gay or certain races into game/films just to satisfy some people, if the game or film requires that character to be gay or black then fine, but don’t include them to please people or tick a certain box.
Jack of No Trades @ Mar 12th 2007 7:55AM
I have a feeling that most of the gay games will come out for the Wii.
idioteraser @ Mar 12th 2007 8:10AM
Actually the Romans, Spartas, Greeks all encouraged their male soldiers to have other male soldiers as lovers. Even the Samurai of Japan had homosexual relationships.
The best soldier societies of the past were frequently engaging in homosexual activities because it bonded the soldiers together.
Jack of No Trades @ Mar 12th 2007 8:15AM
"Samurai of Japan had homosexual relationships."
Please leave a source.
hinges @ Mar 12th 2007 8:30AM
@ Rubang B:
"It is easier for a rich man to enter the gates of heaven if he is lightly greased"
Kazi @ Mar 12th 2007 8:32AM
How does anyone know the sexuality any of the characters in Gears of War? What, does the gay community want... a flamer war hero?
OMG, this chainsaw gun is FFAAAAABUUULOOUUSSS.
Sorry, not all gay guys are flamers, not all manly men are straight. And I don't know about you, I've never known a big bulky muscle war vet to be a flamer.
The accusations of 300 being homophobic is silly. Sexist? Yes. Homophobic? No. As idioteraser mentioned the Spartans actually sexed up each other. It was actually more manly to have sex with another man.
White Rose Duelist @ Mar 12th 2007 8:33AM
Everyone does realize that the Japanese have a different standard of manliness than Americans, right? The RPG etc. characters people in comments like #1 claim are gay are the epitome of masculinity for them. To claim otherwise demonstrates a lack of cultural understanding that is unfortunately common here.
nithron @ Mar 12th 2007 8:43AM
If you wanted to be argumentative, it wouldn't be too hard to suggest that a significant percentage of all the characters in every game ever made were in fact gay, as they never had a heterosexual relationship in the game, and they were never explicitly explained to be straight. So... As the developer never indicated it either way, who's to say they weren't gay?
My point is that deliberately putting a character in a game that is overtly gay, just to have a gay character, defeats the point, and that really... The sexuality of the character shouldn't be a bullet point in their personality profile or something, it's not really relevent, unless it's the main character and you just HAVE to introduce a love story...
SMERSH @ Mar 12th 2007 8:44AM
@ #16: That's fine, but what's more important; intention or inference? Does it matter that the character is identified as gay by the creator, or by the audience? If I thought Leon from RE4 was gay and didn't mind, isn't that just as important as if he was intended to be gay by the writer? It doesn't matter what the cultural implications are, it just depends on how the audience reacts to their perceptions.
Joe @ Mar 12th 2007 8:48AM
V for Vendetta incorporated gay themes so subtely that I didn't even notice. Would anyone care to elaborate?
Matt @ Mar 12th 2007 9:19AM
@17. although you are right that heterosexuality is rarely, if ever explicitly stated, i think the inference is usually drawn from the heterosexual storyline, i.e. the hero fighting to save the princess, yadda yadda.
@19. i'm right with you. i never saw that one. i thought it was anti-government. sure it had poetics involved, and it can be said that V was somewhat eccentric, but i never saw anything gay in that movie. and i'm not arguing against that, i'm just saying i didn't notice it.
32_Footsteps @ Mar 12th 2007 9:20AM
On V for Vendetta - the story of Valerie is quite deliberately a story about how opposition to homosexual behavior, particularly violent opposition, is a clear fascist trait (it has other meanings as well, but that one is pretty clear). And since Alexander apparently missed the original, the comic version of V for Vendetta had the same story, which wasn't changed at all for the movie.
As for intention versus inference... so, the Japanese find things like large muscles, sweaty/oily bodies, and the like indications of homosexuality. Thus, the entire cinematic oeuvre of Arnold Schwartzenegger and Sylvester Stallone are promoting homosexuality. It doesn't matter if that's not what they were made to be - it's the perception, as suggested above.
GL @ Mar 12th 2007 9:22AM
Leonidas from 300 would crush any queer he came across. Gays should not be in games or movies, it makes our society look weak and since we have become politically correct with all of this, other countries frown upon us.
sheppy @ Mar 12th 2007 9:25AM
First off, this is actually talking about what many people are screaming about. Several years ago, the boy/boy kissing on Bully would have been a big issue. Now? It's like "meh." They are talking about how things like this COULD be found without a controversy occuring. Or am I the only one who remembers parent groups hoping to ban The Sims because you could have homosexual relationships in that game.
Anyway, someone asked for a source on homosexuality in Samurai culture. It's called Shudo. Actually, here's the part from wikipedia.
Shudō
Shudō (衆道), the tradition of love bonds between a seasoned and a novice samurai was held to be "the flower of the samurai spirit" and formed the real basis of the samurai aesthetic. It was analogous to the educational Greek pederasty and an honored and important practice in samurai society. It was one of the main ways in which the ethos and the skills of the samurai tradition were passed down from one generation to another.[citation needed]
Another name for the bonds was bidō (美道 "the beautiful way"). The devotion that two samurai would have for each other would be almost as great as that which they had for their daimyo. Indeed, according to contemporary accounts, the choice between his lover and his master could become a philosophical problem for samurai. Hagakure and other samurai manuals gave specific instructions in the way that this tradition was to be carried out and respected. After the Meiji Restoration and the introduction of a more westernised lifestyle, the practice died out.
Jake @ Mar 12th 2007 9:29AM
The only place gayness should really matter is in romantic relationships. Most games don't have them, so who cares if there are "gay" characters. Hell, I think people who very overtly, outwardly gay or straight (read: flaming or homophobic) are annoying as hell.
I'm not homophobic, but I would prefer no flaming gays in any of my games. I'm not gay, and therefore relate less to people who are. It just doesn't do anything for me to have a character's gayness become an unmistakeable part of the story in a superficial, useless, and forced way. I prefer subtle references that I usually don't pick up on anyways.
I also am annoyed by "flaminess". Not homophobic, just get annoyed by certain mannerisms, with flaming being one of them. "Gangsta" annoys me even worse, especially when white kids are trying to be it. "Look, I'm emulating a drug dealer-murderer-womanizer that profits by perverting minds of the youths of his race. I'm so cool."
What next, flaming heterophobic gangsta female mentally and physically disabled American Indian heroes? Yeah, do that just to get noticed.
White Rose Duelist @ Mar 12th 2007 9:32AM
SMERSH:
Japanese developers make games with the Japanese audience in mind. Thus, the characters in their games seem effeminate to Americans.
American developers make games with the American audience in mind. Thus, the characters in their games seem effeminate to Japanese.
When you have two audiences with wildly divergent ideas about what typically gay traits are, it's difficult to portray a character as definitively one sexual orientation without actually including a romantic relationship with another character.
SMERSH @ Mar 12th 2007 9:35AM
@ 32_footsteps: That's not what I mean. I'm saying that we shouldn't let intention define our interpretation. It would be better to see people identify a character as gay and have no problems with that than to let the intention of the creator define how we identify characters and the meaning we derive from art.
Which isn't to say that the creator isn't allowed to have an intention, just that it shouldn't be prescriptive.
HighDef Edition @ Mar 12th 2007 9:35AM
"Gay is the 'new' Black"!! Whatever.
Personally if the lead character is gay I won't buy/play the game.
BTW Joe, there was no gay theme in V for Vendetta - gays would like us to believe that - to say see you were watching a gay movie.
I will fight for your right to be gay, but I'll be damned if you is gonna try to convince me that playing a gay game is cool. I love vagina.
I remember joystiq, IGN & 1up hyping games like Final Fantasy or Phantasy Star and almost all the guys in that game are girlie men - to say the least - but I don't remember being told this in the reviews but they blast games like Rumble Roses XX & Dead or Alive. Now I know why.
rikc @ Mar 12th 2007 9:36AM
I'm not sure how I feel about the term 'non-troversy.' I'm glad people didn't freak out over the gay kissing in Bully, but it doesn't exactly ease any worries I have about the general public. That kiss may have been a 'non-troversy,' but that doesn't mean that homosexuality in general is viewed the same way IMO. It seems that the key to this 'non-troversy' is to make homosexuality an option rather than a character trait. I think it would be better (not to mention much more realistic) if the player had to deal with more characters who were gay whether you wanted them to be that way or not.
t_m @ Mar 12th 2007 9:37AM
FYI - the guys from gears of war would VERY CLOSELY fit the JAPANESE stereotype of gay men. So they are likely wondering "why do all american action games have gay heroes?"
The guys from FF or RE wouldn't seem at all gay to japanese people.. infact they mostly match the most common fashion you see in tokyo today. If you got on a train in Shinjuu you'd see several dozen guys in your carriage dressed in a similar fashion.. with their girls on their arms.
But i agree that its good that people's mistaken cultural perceptions don't affect their views of the character.
PS/ How could anyone watch V and miss that plot?
Xi @ Mar 12th 2007 9:45AM
I don't think it matters, I mean, why can't a character be gay? I mean, I've never seen MasterChief have sex with anyone, could he be gay? why not?, let the players determine the sexuality of the character there no need to force it upon the developers to make a character straight or gay leave that to the imagination of the player.
Jack of No Trades @ Mar 12th 2007 9:52AM
The sexual orientation shouldn't be a determining factor in why you play games. The only a time the sexual orientation of the character should be mentioned is when it ties into the storyline. You play games to play games. Don't let racism and sexism ruin videogames.
hegemonyhog @ Mar 12th 2007 9:54AM
"Personally if the lead character is gay I won't buy/play the game."
Every hero in every game you own is gay.
I'll take your library off your hands now. Thanks!
"I will fight for your right to be gay, but I'll be damned if you is gonna try to convince me that playing a gay game is cool. I love vagina."
I now know who never to play Dig-Dug with.
LongshotX @ Mar 12th 2007 9:59AM
Let's ask Cliffy B if Marcus Fenix is supposed to be gay...
billychaos @ Mar 12th 2007 10:09AM
Reading a bunch of straight people argue over gay issues is like watching a bunch of vegans argue over which restaurant serves the best steak.
Anyways, It sucks those develpers so casually blow off not receiving domestic benefits. Both me and my partner receive domestic benefits from our employers. Then again we dont work in the game industry.
Steven @ Mar 12th 2007 10:20AM
I'd prefer stories that I can relate to. I can't relate to gay people.
billychaos @ Mar 12th 2007 10:35AM
Number 36, I do see your point. However, most gay guys are not asking to make all games and all characters gay, but simply the option to allow it if you want, like in Bully. Bully obviuosly isnt a gay game.
Straight guys cant relate to gay relationships, and gay guys can't relate to straight ones. If you look at games like Harvest Moon to the Sims, I'd rather play the sims. Harvest Moon forces you to choose a GIRL. What if you dont want a girl. Where in the Sims you can choose any characer you wish, guy or girl. Keep in mind, the Sims is not a GAY game. No one is asking for games to be gay themed, but to allow the option if you wanted to.
Jack of No Trades @ Mar 12th 2007 10:42AM
They should just make a game that has every form of human orientation with every orientation having separate storylines that tie together when you play them.
Week One: Oh I feel like playing a white male.
Week Two: Lets play a homosexual male.
Week Three: Lets play a black female.
Week Four: Lets play a handicapped person with special powers.
The Judge @ Mar 12th 2007 10:59AM
I just wish that everyone would stop trying to gay up everything there is. Your gay, great, we get it. Get over your queer self and move on. One's life should not revolve around one's sexual orientation and neither should a video game. I wouldn't play one with a main character, it would be lame. As for the V for Vendetta, yea, that wasn't subtle at all. I think I can tell when a movie has a GIANT liberal slant to it.
Cee @ Mar 12th 2007 11:19AM
I love how white, Christian, heterosexual males have been catered to so much that they fly off the handle as soon as someone else to see themselves represented in a similar manner. Everyone seems to think that if a game had a gay character then he would be running around in drag and trying to have sex with all the male characters in the game. Do people realize that there are gay people who are not super flamboyant and that their sexual orientation is not the only thing that defines them? People just want to see them selves represented in games, movies, television shows and any other kinds of media.
White Rose Duelist @ Mar 12th 2007 11:26AM
I think everyone should just calm down, grab a soda, and watch http://youtube.com/watch?v=aA20dKc3kK8
daniel @ Mar 12th 2007 11:27AM
how often does the sexuality of a character really feature in a game theres a few times and wouldnt make any difference to me if they where gay like in kotor 2 the implied relationships you could have with characters if they where between 2 males or 2 females wouldnt make any difference to me
Alan @ Mar 12th 2007 11:35AM
@#40
I completely agree. As a homosexual male I would like to see a more accurate representation of gay men in all forms of media. I for one don't cross-dress, speak with a lisp, or act like the way the media represents homosexuals. It's like how the African-Americans were portrayed in minstrel shows in the early 20th century. People see a stereotype reinforced so strongly that they begin to wholeheartedly believe that stereotype.
32_Footsteps @ Mar 12th 2007 11:44AM
ER... uh... no gay themes in V for Vendetta? How about the story of Valerie, who was thrown in an internment camp and killed for being a lesbian, refusing to back down even on threat of death? Or the closeted fellow who helps Evie out when she escapes from The Shadow Gallery (although that one was in the movie only)? Face it - in both the comic and movie versions of V For Vendetta, homophobia was a sign of fascism. It's more blatant in the movie, but it's clear in both versions.
So, if you couldn't accept the idea of a male main character that was gay, does that mean you couldn't play a game where you're a straight female? Straight women also are fond of sex with penises. And similarly, can you accept lesbian characters leading a game? After all, they also like the vagina.
Personally, I don't have to identify that much with my characters. I've never been an Italian immigrant who worked as a plumber or a construction worker, but I can identify with Mario well enough to enjoy those games.
Neal Eaton @ Mar 12th 2007 11:51AM
RE: #39
I think you are missing one of the points of Pride and Gay life...to be able to say you are and to be gay WITHOUT the fear of someone beating the crap out of you because you say/do it.
Until ALL people aretreated equally, people who are not treated so HAVE to be able to stand up for themselves and not be afraid of doing so. Case in point...I am gay, and in the state that I live in, I have NO RIGHTS what so ever to see my partner (if he were) in the hospital because our 8 year long relationship is not recognized by the state. THAT is MESSED UP.
BUT back to the point of the original post...what does it matter if the character in the game is gay or not? ABSOLUTELY NOT. It's not like you have to have sex with them. I feel really sad for the people posting here wo don't seem to get that.
It also seems that some people here do not have ANY gay family members or close friends. I hope that when someone close to you 'comes out' you will still love them the same way you did before.
White Rose Duelist @ Mar 12th 2007 11:53AM
I know that I can't play any games where the main characters aren't white married male lapsed Catholic half-Italian nearsighted overweight heterosexuals with short salt and pepper hair and beard, a wonky knee and a marked propensity for procrastination and sloth.
josh @ Mar 12th 2007 11:53AM
"BTW Joe, there was no gay theme in V for Vendetta - gays would like us to believe that - to say see you were watching a gay movie."
Did you even see the movie? The woman who wrote the note that kept Evie going while she was in "prison" was persecuted for being gay, and eventually killed for it. V then revealed that the note was what allowed him to survive his own ordeal as well, and ultimately caused him to start his mission against the fascist government.
From wikipedia: "Valerie Page: A critically acclaimed actress who was imprisoned at Larkhill when the government found out she was a lesbian. Her tragic fate at the hands of the regime motivated V to become a freedom fighter and revolutionary, or so he says."
There you go.
WizarDru @ Mar 12th 2007 11:56AM
Wow, some people really come to the party with preconceived notions, huh? Leonidas in 300 is homophobic? When, exactly? When he calls the Athenians pedophiles during some smack talk? Xerxes is, at best, androgynous and bisexual. He certainly seems to have far more naked women than men in his harem...and has a predeliction for deformities, in particular.
V for Vendetta had two very distinct 'gay' plot elements...elements that were subtle and not the focus of the story, which was Alexander's point. They were an element of the story, not the story itself. Both Veronica's tale and Gordon's abduction were about characters who happened to be gay...but being gay wasn't their defining aspect...WHICH WAS THE WHOLE POINT.
Brendon @ Mar 12th 2007 12:00PM
I don't care what straight people do in the privacy of their own bedrooms, I just don't why they feel the need to let everybody know about it. Quit holding hands, kissing, and hugging in public; get those pictures of your significant other off your desk; and puh-leeze stop pushing your agenda through our media.
Hey Judge (#39): You're straight, great, we get it. Get over your breeder self and move on.
The Judge @ Mar 12th 2007 12:38PM
@ 49
Oh I've been over the fact that I'm straight, you don't see straight people coming together for a parade so I'm sure we're over it. And gay people do the same shit in public so suck it up.
@ 45
You can't see your partner and thats messes up I agree but that doesn't mean you've earned your own video game. If your gay and proud, great, good for you. But most of the time when anything happens to have gay people in it (all media) the focus is around the fact that the person is gay. If you had a gay character in a game, how would you know they weren't gay unless they display signs of homosexual behavior??
Everyone should stop putting so much politics into games. If your gay and you want a gay main character, then make your own company and do it yourself!
The Judge @ Mar 12th 2007 12:38PM
@ 49
Oh I've been over the fact that I'm straight, you don't see straight people coming together for a parade so I'm sure we're over it. And gay people do the same shit in public so suck it up.
@ 45
You can't see your partner and thats messes up I agree but that doesn't mean you've earned your own video game. If your gay and proud, great, good for you. But most of the time when anything happens to have gay people in it (all media) the focus is around the fact that the person is gay. If you had a gay character in a game, how would you know they weren't gay unless they display signs of homosexual behavior??
Everyone should stop putting so much politics into games. If your gay and you want a gay main character, then make your own company and do it yourself!