How the DS does 3D graphics

Ah, proof of competent programmers. I love when game companies really utilize the full capabilities of hardware rather than falling back on the old "it's low powered" approach of whining.

The N64 could also do ~120K polygons... I wonder if the DS has a dedicated sound chip, unlike the N64...

I need me some new games for my DS, any recommendations?

Games I have (order of pref):
Clubhouse Games,
MKDS,
Brain Age,
NSMB,
Trama Center,
Meteos,
Worms
MPH,
Sega's Casino thingy,
TH Skateland,
Nintendogs,

I'm looking for something fun that I can keep playing over and over.

What, you didn't believe them when the Gameboy and Gameboy Advance both went up against far superior hardware and still managed total dominance of the handheld market? That wasn't an indication that maybe, just maybe, Nintendo knows what they are doing with handheld systems?

I just picked up Lost in Blue 2. Its freaking hard, but not frustratingly so. I haven't died yet, but I haven't really progressed either. Its just a matter of time before I figure out the game.

Really fun, and really challenging. My wife is playing lunar knights, and she loves it.

Yeah, the big N understands that it is about the Game being enjoyable and not about it being flashy. Im in agreement. If a game is fun I buy it.


Buy Gamer Themed swag, and help me get a Wii at: http://www.cafepress.com/thegamerlife/

Personaly, If you can import, I would get JUS, Jump Ultimate Stars. It's a Manga fighter, yes, but it plays very much like SSB than anything else, only instead of Nintendo, you get Manga characters... the game is practically made by Nintendo anyway, so its good, and it has online. Lasts a really long time if you can get online...

@2

Get either/both of the Castlevania games... Dawn of Sorrow and Portrait of Ruin. DoS is better IMO, but both are great. The only problem is that I think DoS is out of production, so you may have to hunt it down at a used game dealer or auction site. Of course, they may not be the type of game you play over and over. A game of that sort I'd recommend is Metroid Pinball.

Interesting suggestions, I'll check them out.

OOOOUUUUUEEEEENNNNNDDDDDOOOOONNNNN!

Seriously. No other DS game has outpaced this sucker in ym collection and yes, that's including Elite Beat Agents.

@2, You could always pick up something like Phoenix Wright, or Hotel Dusk Room if you want that kind of an adventure. Maybe Final Fantasy III if you want an RPG?

However, I'm going to pick up Puzzle Quest soon, because it's combination of RPG and puzzle elements just seems so...interesting. I got the demo online, and it just seems like a game I could get addicted to...

And as for the post, it's great to see programmers taking the time to make awesome games for the DS without everyone jumping over to the PSP for its graphical capabilities.

Just maybe you're starting to believe them? The PSP's greatest use has been as a hacking platform, not a gaming machine. All those polygons and nothing to do with them, meanwhile we're getting a flood of new DS games, now that the platform has been proven popular.

Developers need to sell games, and the ever-increasing market share gap between the DS and PSP will guarantee Nintendo more games (which, in turn, will sell more DSes). Same for the Wii vs. PS3 - the wider that gap gets, the harder it becomes for Sony to recover. Even if some developers don't buy into Nintendo's philosophy and want the polygons or processing power, at a certain point it doesn't make business sense. Sony seems to have forgotten the difference between developers and fanboys.

It's really amazing what they can do with the DS. I saw clips of Square-Enix's Dragon Quest Monsters - Joker and it looks amazing. I can't wait for it to make it to the US.

The DS' victories are really just proof of how incompetent and uncreative the majority of today's developers are. With the resources available to them, you'd expect a relentless stream of amazing titles to come from bigger development houses, but that's far from the case. This is a big problem. Sony has shown us that technology has suddenly outpaced creativity and ingenuity.

"With the resources available to them, you'd expect a relentless stream of amazing titles to come from bigger development houses, but that's far from the case."

Why would you expect any more amazing titles to come from the big development houses than the small ones? Creativity isn't an asset that you buy.

But let's not forget that there are plenty of crappy games from small developers also. The GBA has probably 10,000 titles available for it, of which maybe 100 are actually really good. Most of the rest are shovelware from small devs who just wanted to make a quick buck on a system that was the cheapest to develop for with the largest user base.

What you *should* expect from bigger developers is more technical competence, ie. better graphics. And generally, you do get that. But creativity is a different thing.

The PSP outpaced and outclassed the DS from the get go, hence Nintendo saying the DS was different and not a competitor. Also, don't overlook the important fact that the PSP has totally buried the GameBoy brand even though Nintendo has so many variants (in desperation) of it (advanced, advanced sp, advanced spv2, micro, etc).

The PSP was originally made to stop the success of the GBA. Too bad Nintendo made the DS and thus made the PSP the laughing stock of the industry to this day. If Sony had any forsight about the portable market the PSP would of been drastically different. Flip top, better battery life, more durable, etc. Nintendo learns from its hardware errors and improves upon it. Sony blantently ignores them in favor of appealing to people who have no idea what a portable system is in order to actually get sales, since any regular portable gamer like myself can see how stupid the PSP is.

As for the topic on hand, the ability of the DS to do both 2-d and 3-d equally and still maintain a portable system that is durable, long battery life, flip top, etc, is why it is such a success.

TwilightKnight, I'll keep it simple - your hinge is cracked and your phat is a horrid battery drainer.

"don't overlook the important fact that the PSP has totally buried the GameBoy brand"

This isn't true in North America. NPD numbers show since the release of the PSP the sales of the GBA are 5.6 million, the PSP is 4.9 million.

Over the last 4 months the spread is 2.1 million for the GBA and 1.8 million for the PSP.

Put together the PSP is not out-selling the GBA currently, nor has it since it was launched. I think the PSP would need to outsell the GBA before burying the GBA wouldn't it?

Jeff,

I wasn't debating an ability to make pretty graphics. I was actually referring to how generally incompetent game developers are. The tools and resources are there to help developers do more than just make an appealing graphics engine, but surprisingly enough, that's where the problem's arise. You can go into any Barnes and Nobles and buy a book on how to program a next gen graphics engine, so that skill set should be dime-a-dozen in the industry. So it surprises me that we have so many technologically savvy developers who are devoid of creativity being employed and securing million dollar funding to make uninspired games.

Like I said, this is a problem because what we should expect from developers is a bare minimum of technical competence as well as an inspired mind. After all, isn't that the definition of creativity? Shouldn't video game creators be creative whether they're big or small?

I might be the only guy commenting who owns both a PSP and a DS Lite, and who likes both systems. The DS Lite gets more play time, though, because of a few simple things that make it a better portable system than the PSP.

- No load times.
- Simple, well-designed games that I can play without always giving my full attention to them (when I want to be immersed, I set aside time to sit at my computer and play).
- Games designed from the ground up for a portable system. The PSP has so many ports, and they're often very good, but it replicates the home console experience.
- Hacks. The DS is incredibly easy to hack to run homebrew, and it doesn't involve any quirky firmware tricks. The PSP is universally a pain to tinker with.

system specs arent everything... but they are something.

You know, somewhere between Elf Bowling and Happy Feet, DS fanboys lost their ability to say the PSP is pure shit. Actually, somewhere between Asphalt DS and Robots, DS owners lost their ability to say the PSP is pure shit.

DS has some amazing games, PSP has some amazing games.

But it does have to be said... even the best looking 3D games on DS (FFIII, Mario Hoops) look like complete ass. I do want to see DS's game stepped up a bit in the graphics ability but it also stands as one of the last bastions for 2D gaming (but so does PSP... ironically enough).

"The PSP outpaced and outclassed the DS from the get go, hence Nintendo saying the DS was different and not a competitor. Also, don't overlook the important fact that the PSP has totally buried the GameBoy brand even though Nintendo has so many variants (in desperation) of it (advanced, advanced sp, advanced spv2, micro, etc)."

If anything kills off the Game Boy brand, it'll be that Nintendo's wildly popular successor to it isn't called "Game Boy".

Russell Carroll, let me know when you heads out of your sandbox.

You've all "hit the nail on the head". It's not the hardware but software/game.

Look at the original xbox vs PS2. It had better specs than PS2 and there were very few games that took advantage of that e.g. Halo 1&2.

And now the opposite is true - PS3 has better specs than both the 360 and Wii.

Nintendo however, did make 1 blunder with the DS, the original DS Phat version. The DS lite should have been the ONLY version of the DS.

I'm still waiting for the DS lite to drop in price before I get one for myself.

One thing I do like with the PSP vs DS is that the driving games on the PSP are way better than the DS in terms of control and graphics. I have yet to find a decent racing games (based on cars not karts) on the DS.

required, let me know when you're tired of making Sony look bad by association...

sheppy, if I make sony look bad to you I'll never tire of doing so.

required,

Dude, seriously. PSP did not bury GBA in the states. GBA is still thriving which is why Nintendo is hesitant to finally kill it.

And as an owner of every Sony console ever made, you don't have to sell me one. Instead, I think your claims tend to make Sony look bad just because they are being brought forth by you.

As an avid Playstation fan, I implore you, please quit dragging our brand through the mud.

"DS has some amazing games, PSP has some amazing games."

I agree with this. Too bad so many people can't put their silly system bias to the side to realize this.

"even the best looking 3D games on DS (FFIII, Mario Hoops) look like complete ass."

I disagree. Considering where the DS stands in terms of graphical power (somewhere around that of N64), it has some very beautiful 3D games.
Mario doesn't disappoint in 3D. Super Mario 64DS was better detailed than the original (SM64DS Mario more resembles his prerendered art, while SM64 Mario looked really dorky).
Viewtiful Joe: Double Trouble looks almost every bit as good as the console VJs, if only a bit rougher around the edges.
Animal Crossing Wild World and Metroid Prime Hunters both look great.

C'mon, Sheppy, give credit where it's due. I know you're smarter than that.


Required, before I thought you were just a Sony shill, but now I see you're just a troll.

Hey required where can get some of that stuff you're smoking, it seems to be pretty good stuff. Got some buddies that would pay top dollar for it. Maybe if you sell it you'll be even more sucessful than Sony and the PS2... or even greater than Nintendo and Virtual Boy...wait did you slip me something man...or is that smoke cloud so rich that you got the whole site trippin

sheppy, face it the GameBoy is a has been. It is in essence dead worldwide. Second, quit attempting to put your daft words into my mouth.

BPM, my opinions are as valid as yours and they in no way make me a troll any more than yours make you one.

Almack64, why so druggie? Give sobriety a go, the morning will thank you.

"even the best looking 3D games on DS (FFIII, Mario Hoops) look like complete ass."


This is exactly the kind of thing the article is talking about. Those games have great art direction, they really made it work, but then there are people like you slagging it off because it doesn't have enough polygons and the resolution isn't high enough. Low res does not equal "looks like ass", at least not unless you're a total tech spec geek.

Next thing you'll be saying impressionist paintings look like complete ass, because they don't use enough brush strokes, and lack detail.

Ugh.

"BPM, my opinions are as valid as yours and they in no way make me a troll any more than yours make you one."

Except when your opinions have been proven wrong with facts.

PSP, while it does have great games, has yet to outsell the Game Boy Advance line (which includes GBA, SP, and micro) in America alone, or when total sales are accounted for.

Nor has the PSP outpaced the DS. Granted, early on in the race, the two systems were neck and neck, one would outsell the other from month to month, with no clear winner in sight. But then the gap between PSP and DS grew quite large, with the DS far ahead of the PSP.
PSP has been losing support due to this. Not many developers are interested anymore in making PSP-dedicated efforts (though, there still are a few. I'm looking forward to Sega's Crush and Konami's Dracula X Chronicles).

An opinion isn't valid if it is proven wrong. Hence, you're a troll.

On the topic of Vicarious Visions, I think the work they did on the GBA was better than their DS work. Spiderman was one of my first DS games and though it looked alright, I didn't enjoy it. Tony Hawk was one of my first GBA games and it was great all around.

I don't own a DS yet but am getting one soon, and I've been wondering--what are some of the more solid games from the current DS library? I'm definitely getting one of the Brain Age games, Trauma Center, and Phantom Hourglass, when I can, but other than those, and maybe New Super Mario Bros, I'm not too sure what to look for in terms of a good quality DS game...anyone got some good recommendations?

I'm not looking for things like Nintendogs--though it is a clever game, it's just not for me.

BPM, your sales figures are fraudulent and your views of the systems viability so distorted via myopia that only a troll of your exact likeness could share in it.

required is my new favorite poster on joystiq.

The DS is just two Gameboy Advances duct-taped together.

(I couldn't resist.)

Required, you're so adorable when you use big words to try and make yourself look intelligent.


Xian, I laughed. You get a cookie.

12. The PSP outpaced and outclassed the DS from the get go, hence Nintendo saying the DS was different and not a competitor. Also, don't overlook the important fact that the PSP has totally buried the GameBoy brand even though Nintendo has so many variants (in desperation) of it (advanced, advanced sp, advanced spv2, micro, etc).

Uh, can you cite these 'facts'? I'm VERY interested as to where the hell you got your information from.

@BPM

Please don't mistake me for a simple graphics whore. Let me just put it this way.

DS has a large amount of limitations developers have to content with. Many of them being the video ram itself. So even simple things that began their life on N64 and PSX like Mipmapping suddenly becomes a decision of how much memory they have. Likewise, because of the memory limits, textures are often tiled too often. We can look at the blaring examples but these come from the cashin dev houses so that's like bashing prints on Devart by the Inuyashi Fan Club. If you noticed, in those games you mentioned, everything looks fine until you get very close. Likewise, particles are limited drastically on the console as well. Very few games try to apply some form of blending so they often end up with excessively pixelated textures and the distortion by improper UV mapping comes across in too many games.

Now, in the screenshot linked in the picture, you'll notice things look much better the farther out you are. Mainly because the texture is given unough screenspace back there that one pixel does not equal 12 on screen. In FFIII, this is simply not a case being made. Often, when you are close to the models, the individual pixels in the texture become readily apparent. Likewise, because of texture space limitations, convention UV mapping is not being utilized just because every pixel counts. When this happens, it too leads towards the UV distortions I mentioned earlier.

The DS 3D abilities are useful, should you stay far away from the models. But when you zoom, get close, or generally give something more screenspace than it should have, the limitations of the console do become painfully obvious. Some have found ways to shave textures off the memory in creative ways, like in the above shot, the skater does not have any textures from what I can tell. He's merely polored polygons.

Although I do agree, an excellent art direction can take away from the limitations of a console but only so much. I mean, do you honestly think SquareEnix could release Vagrant Story as is in today's marketplace? And yet Vagrant Story stands as the "ultimate high bar" for Nintendo DS graphics.

@bm

Please, know who you're talking to. I didn't slag off those games. I merely said that the graphics were unimpressive and those two games are considered the current high bar by the gaming media. Gameplay was fun, but stop to think about something. The games that have "defined" Nintendo DS in it's gaming cult status, have those been 3D games? Look at the games that have secure DS's mass appeal status. Once again, hardly showcases for 3D graphics. DS is arguably at it's best when it's 2D. The DS games that have made an impact on the gaming art community are often on the 2D side of things. The DS is harkening back to the early days of 3D and the early days of 3D were ugly.

Now, having said that, I'm not seeing developers doing things like trying to incorporate dynamic lighting or others such nifty features. Truth be told, the most impressive Nintendo DS project I have EVER seen still remains a homebrew project (and yes, all screengrabs were from the DS) based on Porco Rosso.

Found right here...
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=39&t=349665&page=1&pp=15&highlight=porco+rosso

It starts out as a PSP project but as you follow the thread, he starts getting things up and running on DS.

@36 Xian:
You have no idea how true your comment is
The DS has two processors: an ARM7, which I believe is double the MHz of the GBA's ARM7; and an ARM9, which is the ARM7's stronger, faster, and generally more badass cousin.
The DS also has two 2d GFX chips, which are souped-up versions of the GBA's GFX chip
And then it of course has the two screens, and the two speakers.
The big differences that were of course not present on the GBA at all were the 3d hardware, wifi, different ROM (which now maxes out at 1Gb, or 128MB in PC terms) and the touch screen

@33 required:
Try one of the Tony Hawk games on the DS. It helps if there's a good game in the first place.

@ Lou D

It's been a while since I've been involved with DS Dev, but I'll see if I can't remember how it works.

When in DS mode, the DS mainly uses the ARM9 for graphics and the ARM7 (GBA chip) for sound, although the developers can get creative with what they feed through each one. The DS can be fooled into using either.

When in GBA mode, it just locks out the ARM9 and runs off the ARM7.

Hope that answers your question.

BPM, you must be extremely small to find the words I type as being big and I must say I am rather amused that such simple words have made me intelligent in your eyes.

Sorry, Required. I was being sarcastic. Didn't think I'd have to explain that to you. Oh, well.


Sheppy, I'm not accusing you of being a graphics whore. I just feel you were cutting the DS too short.
Yes, it is rather limited, but it can still produce great visuals.
Though, if only it could blur textures like the N64 could, the textures wouldn't look so blocky.

@Matt

What type of games do you play?

@2:

I've played Sonic Rush through over and over and over... with both characters. That's like SIX 'OVERS'!

Viewtiful Joe: Double Trouble is also a great DS game, although it can be beaten fairly quickly.

Also, Pac N' Roll seems to be everywhere for practically nothing, and I quite enjoyed that game.