Component to HDMI cables already exist, already pointless
Our BFF, Engadget, got a tip about an upcoming component to HDMI cable for the non-elite 360, and we're left shrugging our shoulders. Such adapters already exist at a steep cost; you plug component and audio cables in one end, and a single HDMI cable feeds out the other.That's cool if you're down with OCD, but for the rest of us, why bother? One feature of HDMI is to run a digital signal for audio and video over a single cable. Connecting each audio and component feed into an analog-to-digital converter negates that one-cable, digital-only benefit.
Another "feature" of HDMI is its support for HDCP, and these adapters can't handle that copy-protected signal. What that means is someday, when a studio executive pushes a red button to turn on an Image Constraint Token for new movies, an HD-DVD enabled 360 will down-scale HD movies to DVD-quality; full quality in that future scenario will require a direct HDCP connection between a device and a TV. And some of our fancy HDTVs don't even support HDCP. Thank you, piracy panic.
Maybe Microsoft is preparing an HDMI cable to interface with the original 360's video-output port. Even then, the interface change won't impact games; it's only a convenience and movie issue.
Note that pictured adapter includes component to VGA cable.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Hamicide @ Mar 30th 2007 6:24PM
This is exactly what I was thinking when I read that article on Engadget.
Excellent article Zack.
The people should know how pointless such a device would be before they go and shell out some serious cash for it.
Doc @ Mar 30th 2007 6:25PM
if you own a 360 just go out a get a VGA cable..the differece between the HDMI and VGA is so close that you need a computer to tell the difference. Plus if you get the VGA cable you enable the 360 to upscale dvd's too. That is if your TV accepts VGA....HDMI is a nice touch ,but is more marketing hype than a difference maker.
Norm @ Mar 30th 2007 6:36PM
Yeah, for my 360 I use a vga cable, it looks super nice.
copa @ Mar 30th 2007 6:42PM
I have seen numerous reports the VGA cables cause washed-out colors on the 360. HAve you experienced this?
joedirt131 @ Mar 30th 2007 6:49PM
What I'm interested to know is whether or not this solution can output 1080p. Since it is component, there could be some issues, so we'll have to see what happens. I have this concern because my 1080p TV does not accept 1080p through VGA.
Josh Warner @ Mar 30th 2007 6:53PM
Getting tired of the "one cable" crap. Yes, it carries audio. For you mac users out there who can't manage to connect TWO WHOLE CABLES (and actually want to use the built-in crap TV speakers), they made your life easier.
For the rest of us who have good audio setups, this is simply a terrible idea. Audio should never be synchronous with video on one cable; a good setup will always have dedicated audio components that have little or nothing to do with the video processing. Prices of home theater receivers get jacked up because they have to be able to strip out the audio signal from the HDMI and send the video on; this is hard and unnecessary. The extra step and cabling costs extra $$ and degrades the video quality (limited switching bandwidth and twice as much cable).
HDMI's goal in life is not to get audio in with the video. It is to seem appealing enough to Joe Sixpack so Joe buys into the trojan horse which is the mandatory HDCP encryption on the interface. It makes me sick that people are buying into this stuff...
Ian @ Mar 30th 2007 6:53PM
Actually, it wouldn't be COMPLETELY useless. If you were in the unfortunate situation of having all the component inputs on the back of your TV already be filled up (as I am with my DVD, Cablebox, and Xbox 360) and you wanted to add one more (say a newly acquired Gamecube component cable), then you could use this to shift one of your devices into an HDMI input.
Of course, my HDTV doesn't even have an HDMI input, so this wouldn't help me... but I suppose it's possible that there are people out there who might be in the situation I described.
Virtua Fanboy @ Mar 30th 2007 6:58PM
Who out there has a HDTV that works well w/the 360 VGA cable and displays 1080p w/it? What kind of tv is it? I'm in the market for 1080p and I'm not spending $500 more dollars on an elite. Anybody?
Autocrawler @ Mar 30th 2007 7:05PM
Once I'm actually sold on the HD craze, I won't be using either console for playback-I'll build a HDCP compliant HTPC instead, thankyouverymuch.
why not the LS2LS7? @ Mar 30th 2007 7:08PM
John, HDCP is not mandatory on HDMI connections.
I hook my Mac Mini to my HDTV with HDMI (DVI->HDMI cable) and there's no HDCP support on the Mac Mini.
I believe HDCP support is mandatory on HDMI ins, but HDCP is not mandatory on HDMI signals.
Stripping audio in your amp does not degrade the HDMI video quality. Not in the least. It's a digital signal.
You want to complain about audio over HDMI? I want audio over HDMI. 8-channel PCM audio is not possible over S/PDIF (coax or optical), it is possible over HDMI. I like that.
Also, when the article says "these adapters can't handle that copy-protected signal", what they mean is that these adapters cannot generate an HDCP signal. But since these adapters only take component in, this is immaterial. The key is that since the 360 is outputting component (which is "in the clear"), it will refuse to output full res when the ICT is in place and will refuse to upscale DVDs and HD discs. After the signal is downrezzed, do you care whether it has HDCP or not? Nope.
Also, the device pictured (well, the component version of it), doesn't support 1080p, so it can't even be used to wedge 1080p component video into a TV that only takes HDMI.
Mr Khan @ Mar 30th 2007 7:15PM
I agree with the article
The whole "mystique" of HDMI has been the fact that it's an all-digital connection, which essentially makes it "nerd-chic" (kinda like BlueTooth)
Doing this negates the whole concept, sullying our sacred digital connection with unclean analogue hands
BURN THESE HERETICS!!!
syco @ Mar 30th 2007 7:35PM
I like HDMI because I like the physical plug they picked. It's small, sturdy, and lacks the whole bent pin issues you might get with DVI or VGA. Putting the audio in the cable is pointless and may even make things more difficult, but generally it's a good connection. Since it's digital, there's absolutely no difference between it and DVI as far as quality goes, and it's only ever so slightly better than VGA, but the plug is good so I'll vote for that...
Or you know, component... since a person is lucky if they even have that on their TV, much less something fancier.
Rod Munch @ Mar 30th 2007 7:37PM
Is anyone a fan of HDMI? From reading what you guys have said here it seems to be not a good system at all. I'm not really very knoweledgable on all this HD crap.
FrankTheCrank @ Mar 30th 2007 7:39PM
Can you say HALF ASS???
"XBOX360, the uber console, almost...just give 12 more months"
C. Grant @ Mar 30th 2007 7:56PM
copa: My Dell monitor is VERY washed out with the xbox 360 VGA cable; unusably so.
Jeff @ Mar 30th 2007 8:20PM
"Audio should never be synchronous with video on one cable; a good setup will always have dedicated audio components that have little or nothing to do with the video processing."
It's called "digital", genius. There's no such thing as crosstalk in an HDMI cable. Data is data. It's either reproduced correctly or it isn't, and there's no possible way the video and audio data could intertwine.
You're probably the same kind of guy who'd run out and pay $200 for a "high-end" HDMI cable because it "separates the signals better".
"Prices of home theater receivers get jacked up because they have to be able to strip out the audio signal from the HDMI and send the video on; this is hard and unnecessary."
Bullshit. You simply have no clue what you're talking about.
The video and audio signals carried by an HDMI cable *are separate signals*. Not only that, they are entirely separate data streams. A receiver doesn't do anything to "strip out" audio. It simply ignores the video stream, or passes it along unmolested to whatever other component you're sending it. This is not "hard". This is easy.
Look at it this way. You're at work. You have a document you want to save on a network drive. Simultaneously, a co-worker has a document he wants to save on the same network drive. Should you be worried that your documents will somehow merge, or that a little bit of your co-worker's document will bleed into yours? When you open your document later, is your co-worker's name suddenly on the letterhead instead of yours?
Same thing; they are two totally different data streams. The fact that they're going to the same place through the same wire means nothing. They both reach their intended destination completely without loss and completely unaltered.
You're stuck thinking analog. Digital sound and video bear no relation whatsoever to an analog world.
Joe @ Mar 30th 2007 8:26PM
I respectfully disagree. A lot of HDTV's don't support 1080p over component cable but will support it over HDMI. I want my HDMI.
SuicideNinja @ Mar 30th 2007 8:26PM
Good job on the following:
Hamicide - "The people should know how pointless such a device would be before they go and shell out some serious cash for it."
Doc - "if you own a 360 just go out a get a VGA cable..the differece between the HDMI and VGA is so close that you need a computer to tell the difference."
*waits for PS3 fans to whine...even though the 360 looks great over component or VGA...which the PS3 doesn't.*
mccomber @ Mar 30th 2007 9:15PM
*waits for PS3 fans to whine...even though the 360 looks great over component or VGA...which the PS3 doesn't.*
Ok, I'll go ahead and whine. My ps3 looks fine over component... unless I'm missing something. It certainly isn't noticeably different from my buddies setup with hdmi. Tell me SuicideNinja, what doesn't look as good? Or is it VGA that doesn't, in which case, why even mention component in that sentence?
Josh Warner @ Mar 30th 2007 9:25PM
OK Jeff, because clearly digital signals have no appreciable degradation: go try to buy ANY digital HD video cable of a length greater than 15' which does not use a fiber intermediary or amplification.
If it exists, it is a ripoff and won't work. Digital signals sent over copper degrade the farther out they get - it IS an electrical (analog) signal. It gets interpreted digitally on the other end, but it's electrical. It's also very high frequency, because it has tremendous bandwidth as it is essentially uncompressed.
I own a high-end do-it-all home theater amp. It switches component at 100 MHz, but doesn't do digital. I also have a dedicated, extremely simple stereo preamp (from Harman Kardon's signature series in the early '90s) which has absolutely no bells and whistles like tone adjustment or balance.
The dedicated preamp beats the do-it-all every day of the week. Why? Because the more electronics you put together in a limited size box, the more interference and crosstalk you get between different parts. It's also worth noting that a good deal of the processing inside these "theater" amps is analog. Also, the strongest signals present have to be analog, because that's all your speakers know (there are select exceptions to this for studio monitors and reference self-amplified speakers). If you have a comparable amp, try selecting an empty channel - which should be utterly silent - while other sources are connected and playing. Then turn up the volume to THX reference 00 dB. I guarantee you will hear the other sources faintly (or not so faintly) before you get there.
Getting back to my original point, the video processing IS an issue. It uses high bandwidth, high throughput processing and needs to amplify the signal so it can be retransmitted through another cable. All of this is terrible to have going on in the same box your audio is being processed in - the noise floor probably goes up 10 dB or more from the equipment's optimal spec.
By your "it's digital - it must be perfect!!1" argument, all CD players with digital output should be sonically identical (FYI: this is nowhere CLOSE to reality). But - it's reading the same bits, right? Yes, but like it or not electronics are inherently analog, even when they're dealing with a digital signal, and are subject to the problems of analog like crosstalk and inductive feedback. Fiber optic connections sidestep this, but nothing uses fiber/photons for internal communications (yet, Intel is working on it).
If I haven't convinced you yet, Jeff, you're too far gone for me to help. For completeness, I'll refute your hard drive analogy: TCP-IP (like all data interfaces) is designed with significant error correction and redundancy so that all the data reaches its destination losslessly. Hard drives do the same. There are data errors in these systems, but they are specifically designed to preserve the digital data. In HD video, the redundancy becomes impractical because of the sheer volume of information, and the fact that there is no buffer on either side for the data to be temporarily retained for comparison.
DeezNuts420 @ Mar 30th 2007 9:57PM
@4
The "Washed Out" problem only lies with certain TV's. I have the 50"Samsung 720p DLP set, and VGA looks awesome. DVD's are upscaled to 720p as well. Do yourself a favor and pick one up. You won't be disappointed.
P.S. If does happen to WAS OUT the colors, go into the Menu and tweak the color settings.
DeezNuts420 @ Mar 30th 2007 9:58PM
Josh just turned my brain to shit.
why not the LS2LS7? @ Mar 30th 2007 10:10PM
Josh, the digital output (S/PDIF) from CD players is identical in content. They are not sonically identical, because they are not sounds, they are signals, and when converting them to sounds, you'll introduce differences. Crosstalk is a non-issue, because crosstalk never amounts to enough to flip a 1 to a 0 or vice-versa. Your hardware sees a 0.95 and knows it's a 1.
People used to talk all kinds of smack about jitter and such on CD players, but now CD players just use the same transport mechanisms that $15 computer CD drives to, because it doesn't matter.
Yes, the conversion from D/A matters, and it matters a lot. But when you do that in your amp, it takes all that away from the CD player.
http://www.monoprice.com/products/subdepartment.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10240&style=
There you so, several options for longer HDMI cables. I'd highly recommend the 22AWG ones, because as you say, signals do degrade and the 22AWG ones will degrade it less. I have a friend who uses a 22AWG 35' to run from the front of his room (video sources) to the back (projector). It works, no mosquitoes.
I would agree longer cables start to get dicey. A signal booster up from might do it, or you might need a cable that uses coax or maybe even fiber. But this is no different for component (which always uses coax), so HDMI doesn't lose to component here. HDMI also uses differential signaling (the digital equivalent to balanced signaling), so it is a lot more noise and signal loss immune than common-mode signaling like component. Also, you speak of digital video as being very high frequency because it is uncompressed. This is true, but it's also true of analog video. Nyquist says that changing the representation doesn't change the bandwidth (frequency + S/N) to send something and so if you want to send 1080P over component, you have to pay the same piper as over HDMI.
I don't see why you make a point that digital signals degrade over distance, when analog (component) ones do too. With digital you can regenerate the signal at least. If you design a system with 20dB of S/N headroom, you can lose 18dB and still regenerate the signal back to flawless. With analog, any noise that enters the system is going to be carried to the end, amplifiers will just amplify the noise. A loss of even 1dB of S/N is irreversible.
You're right about separate switching amps, but it doesn't make a big enough difference for most people. It's a moot point anyway, as you still need a switching amp whether you use analog or digital.
If you don't like taking your signals to one place and passing them through, get an HDMI splitter (monoprice) and send the audio to one place and the video to another. You'll need to use HDMI even for the audio-only signal, because S/PDIF cannot carry many of the audio formats HDMI can.
But there's no point to splitting it for most people, because passing digital signals through your amp isn't harmful. The S/N will be degraded, but as long as it doesn't drop below the level where 1s are confused with 0s, it doesn't matter. And I can assure you the difference between normal and not working is generally much more than 10dB.
TCP/IP doesn't use significant redundancy and uses no error correction, it uses error detection and retransmission (CRC32). Hard drives use a lot of redundancy, they do a lot of forward error detection and correction (Reed-Solomon coding).
In HD video, the data is retained on either end actually, the sending device constructs the entire image as it decompresses it and sends it, the receiving device (unless it is a CRT TV) receives it into a frame buffer before displaying it. However, there is not a lot of redundancy in the actual transmission, so even if you did retain the data, there's no reference data to match it to and correct it. This is also true of component video.
Speaker signals, due to being driven at very high powers (10W or more per signal), are relatively noise immune to any other non-speaker signal, especially when it comes to inductive coupling (cross-talk). And again, this portion of the system is unchanged between component and HDMI so I don't see why you bring it up.
Processing in "theater" amps is almost exclusively digital because it is cheaper and more flexible. I have a friend who has at times designed the reference boards used in high-end dedicated switching amps. They are all digital and use various DSPs (TI, Analog devices, etc.). A to D (if necessary), crunch crunch crunch, and D to A. This is not to say analog can't do the job given sufficient capital, but digital just does it better at affordable prices.
SuicideNinja:
PS3 looks great over component. I don't know what you're talking about. 360 does have the VGA edge, as PS3 lacks it completely. Due to a lack of standardization of signal levels and gammas on VGA (some of which carries over to RGB HDMI!), 360 doesn't always look great over VGA, it depends on your system.
Evan @ Mar 30th 2007 11:37PM
@LS2/LS7
HDMI operates at 165MHz, but the pixel clock rate of 720P is only 37MHz. You need a lot better frequency response to handle the 165MHz HDMI signal than the 37MHz analog signal.
And, your "0.95 becomes a 1" argument is false, because HDMI does not use a cycle per bit. HDMI squeezes over a Gigabit onto that 165MHz signal! So its more like 0.95 will be interpreted as 14 while 1 is interpreted as 15.
If an HDMI signal degrades from "1 to 0.96" it might work perfectly, but if it degrades from "1 to 0.94" it might not work at all! That's frustrating. At least with analog, there's a gradual degradation: it works great... it works well... it works poorly, but at least it works!
why not the LS2LS7? @ Mar 31st 2007 12:52AM
Evan:
720P is 1648x750 when you include the front and back porches in both directions. 1648x750x60fps means the pixel clock is 74.1MHz for 720p. However, you cannot equate pixel clock to bandwidth requirements. The bandwidth requirements for 720p are apparently 37MHz.
It is not reasonable to compare 720p component bandwidth requirements to HDMI 1080p component requirements. Of course HDMI will look like a bandwidth hog when it is carrying twice the data.
Why would it seem strange to squeeze a gigabit on a signal that is 165Mbytes/sec? 165Mbytes/second is 1.3gigabits a second.
Your argument about 0.94 is ridiculous. There is a lot of headroom in a robust digital system like HDMI. In the case of HDMI, it uses differential signalling. That is, there are two wires for each bit. When you want to send a zero, you set one wire above GND (let's say 1V), and another wire below GND (lets say -1V). If you want to send a zero, you reverse the two. Now, as the signal degrades, the two signals get closer together. But as long as the first wire has a higher voltage on it than the 2nd, no matter how low either is, the signal still gets through.
It's called differential signaling, and it works very well. A good example is RS-232, the old serial interface you are used to. RS-232 uses single-ended signaling and can do 115,200bps 35 feet over a good shielded cable. RS-232 has a big brother, RS-422, which is identical, except it uses differential signaling. RS-422 can do 10mbit over that same cable and that same distance. RS-422 can also do 115,200bps over a 3500 foot cable instead.
Your argument that analog is better is wrong because your analog signal will look very poor before a differential signal even begins to show problems. The same noise that degrades a differential digital signal so much that the data is lost will make your component signal unwatchable.
Literally anything your single-ended (unbalanced) component system can do, differential digital signaling can do better.
ZeroCorpse @ Mar 31st 2007 2:54PM
I use the VGA cable. It looks awesome. Crisp, clear, bright color, nothing is "washed out" and it upscales my DVDs to near-HD quality. I run at 768p, and I have no complaints. Looks as good or better than some guys I've seen running HDMI for video sources at 1080p. The thing is, unless your TV takes up an entire wall, you will NOT notice the difference between VGA, DVI, and HDMI. Just like audiophiles really can't hear the sounds in the dogs-hear-only range (but swear they can), videophiles nitpick over every single pixel, lie about what the do and don't see, and get RIGHT UP CLOSE to scrutinize. Under normal use, you won't see a damn bit of difference between all the high def cables.
The source is what matters most, followed by the quality of the display. Some displays can't handle certain connections because- frankly- the manufacturer half-assed it. A good display will look nearly identical from one connection to the other, if they're all coming from the same source.
Don't let the min/max types scare you. If you want near HD quality on your DVDs, use the VGA cable.
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Apple 4 GB iPod Mini Silver M9160LL/A ....40 USD
Apple 60 GB iPod Photo M9830LL/A..........60 USD
Apple 60 GB iPod photo ...................55 USD
Apple 30 GB iPod Photo M9829LL/A..........50 USD
Apple 512 MB iPod Shuffle MP3 Player......40 USD
Apple 4 GB iPod Mini Blue M9436LL/A.......45 USD
Apple 2 GB iPod Nano......................50 USD
Apple 4 GB iPod Nano......................60 USD
Apple 30 GB iPod Vidoe...................110 USD
Apple 60 GB iPod Vidoe...................150 USD
play station 1......... $120
play station 2 ....$130
play station 3.....$150
Sony PSP Limited Edition: $140 US
Sony PSP Entertainment Pack: $150 US
Sony PSP Value Pack: $120 US
Sony PSP Bundle: $130 US
xbox 360.......$200
this games are brand new sealed in black company Box.
Send your enquiry to:vodafone_world@inbox.lv