Five-minute Mario a world record? Yes and no
Is a new video of a five-minute speed run through the original Super Mario Bros. a world record? Well, it depends on who you ask.The Speed Demos Archive, which posted the video, certainly thinks so. In a recent news post, they talk up the video as the game being "beaten more quickly than is allowed by the rules of a certain other site which amusingly considers itself to be the authority on speed records." That other site is long-time video game scorekeeper Twin Galaxies, which currently establishes the record as a slower but still blazing 5:08 run by Scott Kessler.
That gap is the result of some rather stringent rules set forth by Twin Galaxies -- esoteric glitches like wall jumps, pipe redirects and walking through walls are not allowed by the scorekeepers. These glitches aren't cheating per se -- they're all possible in the official, unaltered version of the game -- but they do go against what Twin Galaxies calls "programmer intent," and the spirit of how the game is meant be played
What's the difference? Well, eight seconds, which is a lifetime in the world of competitive speed running. Which view is more valid? Decide for yourself. Below, we've posted three videos: one from Speed Demos Archive; one of a slightly slower "TG legal" run; and one of an emulator-enhanced (but still technically possible) run from TASvideos.com. Let the battle begin.
Previously: Mario racing minus the karts
Speed Demos Archive (5:00)
Twin Galaxies Legal Run (approx. 5:10)
Note: TG World Record is 5:08
NESVideos Tool-assisted Run (4:59.93)
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
mushiking @ Apr 23rd 2007 7:36PM
this is just stupid, give credit where it's due. it's called a "Speed Run" for a reason
Mr Khan @ Apr 23rd 2007 7:41PM
sucks to developer intent
I've always said, if its in the code, they shouldn't punish us for using it (especially in MMOs, i hate GMs, now and forever)
Developers should live with their mistakes, or patch them if they dare...
comtar @ Apr 23rd 2007 7:47PM
I once got 3.6 million points on Axelay, that was a fun run, went through Easy, Normal, Hard, and Very Hard all on one continue.
I also beat Super Metroid without the Space Jump, and a few other "required" items like the grappling beam and X-ray vision. You can actually get anywhere in the game using the speed booster and wall jump as well as the bomb hopping technique.
I still haven't gotten an award for either yet.
Jake @ Apr 23rd 2007 7:51PM
sheppy,
I'd hate to tell you I told you so...Let me know if you don't know what I'm talking about.
NintendoFanbot @ Apr 23rd 2007 7:53PM
If I were to refer to more 'recent' record such as beating Mario 64 through certain glitches, then I would still say no. Or even doing something something in Zelda 1 such as saving after a dungeon then resetting to skip back to the original square would not really be developer intent. Thus there are maybe three categories (in my opinion) for specific records:
1) Developer intent
2) Glitch-assisted
3) Tool assisted
Nevertheless, while they can all still be honored, the differences should be made clear for the casual observer/reader.
"they shouldn't punish us for using it"
I don't think the developers care, but for the enjoyment among peers and especially competition, while punishment is 100% less likely, indifference or even disdain may be valid.
But I agree patches shouldn't exist.
Negativecool @ Apr 23rd 2007 7:54PM
Hmm...I figured since the word "esoteric" was used to describe the Twin Galaxies rules I instantly thought they were wrong.
However, after much contemplation on the tree of woe, I have to reluctantly give it to the Twin Galaxies as the "true" speed run. However, my opinion has been shifting all over the place, so anyone could argue me the other way with little more than a "come on dude!"...
wait in the car @ Apr 23rd 2007 7:54PM
Woah... the unorthodox access to the warp zone in 4-2 (in the bottom video) just blew my mind.
Rubang B @ Apr 23rd 2007 7:55PM
I spent a couple months chasing Scott Kessler's record a couple years back. I was obsessed. I got to a point where I could watch his speed run, copy and master all his moves, and tie him on every level (and even beat him by half a second on 4-2!). This was back when the record was 5:13 though. Even though I could match his every level, whenever I had the VCR on I'd choke on either the hammer bro right before Bowser or on one of the last hammer bros on 8-3. Now I just waste time getting the fireballs and do a casual 5:50 or so run. I could've been a contender! I've never seen that BS walljump on the pipe on 8-4 though, or those pipe redirects on 4-2 and 8-4. They make me hopping mad.
I think both records are legal in different ways. They have speedruns with and without warps too, so I think both of these count. Tool-assisted runs are for chumps though.
Seeing these videos makes me want to quit both my jobs, drop out of school, and get back to practicing.
Chris 4tee4 @ Apr 23rd 2007 8:04PM
No "Kessle"r run jokes? For shame
Rubang B @ Apr 23rd 2007 8:09PM
Ok I take back what I said about tool-assisted runs. That tool-assisted run was full of style points, and had the most beautiful run through 8-2 I've ever seen. It's like how there's a place for both real kung fu and wire-fu. That was some Crouching Tiger Hidden Mario action. But he missed some style points in 8-4. In that one lava pit with the platform in the bottom (right before the first warp pipe you go in), the platform is unnecessary. You can make the whole jump from one edge to the other if you jump at the last possible second. It just looks really scary and everybody holds their breath when they see it.
I can't believe Scott Kessler shaved 5 more seconds off his time!!! I hate him! I love him! I'm playing this so hard tonight. I might not survive this binge...
greatslack @ Apr 23rd 2007 8:17PM
anyone know what the record is for a no-warp run?
Rubang B @ Apr 23rd 2007 8:29PM
This web site has a warpless speed run at 18 minutes and 57.73 seconds, but it's tool-assisted.
It also has a WARPLESS speedrun of Battletoads at 25 minutes, with 2 players, BOTH surviving!
::explodes::
http://tasvideos.org/Movies-NES.html
LaughingTarget @ Apr 23rd 2007 8:51PM
If these guys want to impress me, show them doing this on an unaltered NES with an unaltered, original cart. None of this emulator crap where we can't be sure it isn't actual skill or using manipulative programming.
LaughingTarget @ Apr 23rd 2007 8:58PM
Also, if they want to shave off more time, don't go for the top of the flagpole.
Also, around the 4 minute mark, Mario is killing Hammer Brothers from underneath. Not sure if that is possible as I've never made it that far in the original, but original thought makes me think some cheating is involved.
Rubang B @ Apr 23rd 2007 9:05PM
I think for Twin Galaxies you have to record it on a VCR with an actual NES and original game, so Scott Kessler is the only one here I'll trust, even though I want to kill him.
Rubang B @ Apr 23rd 2007 9:08PM
Yeah I don't get why they're all going for the top of the flagpole. The totally tool-assisted cheater at the bottom even got a firework on one of the levels. No idea why. You ALWAYS wait an extra second on that level to avoid the firework, which takes longer than the second you wait.
Yourself @ Apr 23rd 2007 9:19PM
I don't hold anything against the glitch using runs, but at the same time, I still have more appreciation for the guys that do it without them. The point of a speed run (as I see it) is to prove that you're perfect at playing the game, not abusing the developers mistakes. See Mega Man speed runs (don't feel like finding any for you) for an example of absurd glitches.
Tool assisted is retarded. You're not even playing the game anymore.
p.s. since other people are bragging about their acheivements, while its not a speed run, I beat MMX without taking any damage. (sans being forced to lose to Vile)
bVork @ Apr 23rd 2007 9:32PM
Twin Galaxies is an absolute joke. They conveniently ignore Arcadia scores (which are always carefully verified). "World Records" my ass. TG's records are only "world records" if your world ends at the US borders.
We've been discussing TG over at Shmups: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=13748
T.J. Barbour @ Apr 23rd 2007 9:55PM
Hey, couldn't he have shaved a few seconds off by landing lower on the flagpoles?
I mean, it takes less time when you just slide down from the very bottom rather than all the way from the top right?
I say, show me 4:55!
But really, this guy is crazy, great skills!
Mr Flannery @ Apr 23rd 2007 10:20PM
The kid clearly cheated. Pause it right at 5:10. Mario magically floats through about 5 Bowsers axes. Not to mention the numerous occasions he hits the tube plants. Complete bullshit.
John @ Apr 23rd 2007 10:45PM
Laughing Target -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRY6vTsnNjA
Not sure if you meant speed runs in general or this particular one though...
Brendon @ Apr 23rd 2007 10:48PM
Guess I'm just an old fart. These speed runs are fun to watch and all, but for me the real ego stroke was simply getting the highest score on Tempest (or playing Dragon's Lair all the way through) in my home town arcades. Nothing like getting a crowd around you, cheering you on, and having your initials stay in the top spot on the machine for weeks at a time. What happened if a new high score replaced yours? Drop some more quarters, that's what!
This whole interweb thing, along with consoles replacing arcade gaming, totally destroyed being a big fish in a small pond.
shoop008 @ Apr 23rd 2007 11:12PM
Doesn't matter if you hit the flagpole at top or bottom. The flag still has to slide all the way down either way.
Lynx @ Apr 23rd 2007 11:20PM
In the top video, world 8-3, the guy made a very slight mistake that cost him maybe a second and a half. (Really, I know it's absurd, but in speed runs every second counts, right?)
At 4:12/13, right before the flagpole, he walks directly into the block that holds the flagpole causing him to lose some time. Nothing /major/, but definitely something to be noted. Had he not run into the bottom of the flagpole, he would have netted 243 (the real perfect time on 8-3) instead of his 242.
So, in essence, it's not really a perfect run. :D
Lynx @ Apr 23rd 2007 11:31PM
Oh man, I was wrong about that. That was actually done on purpose! I overlooked the fact that if he got 243, he would have had to deal with 3 fireworks. Stupid me. :/
tmmoore_nc @ Apr 24th 2007 12:35AM
Developer intent was not for the game to be played so fast!
Rubang B @ Apr 24th 2007 2:31AM
shoop008, crap, yeah I forgot the flag has to come down either way.
Phazon @ Apr 24th 2007 7:48AM
I'm pretty sure the second one's a cheat cause on level 4-1 he jumps through the top of the plant things in the pipes and I've tried that on the actual game and you can't do it.
Crono @ Apr 24th 2007 11:00AM
TAS runs are cool to watch, especially the mario 3 one where he beat the game in 10 minutes with 99 lives. Incredible.
I think Twin Galaxies are a little bit too hardass when it comes to rules. There are moves in Super Metroid they don't allow (the so called "murder beam" and "mockball"), that significantly speed up the game.
My friend had the speed record for Super Metroi. 35 minutes. Except that a few days after he sent his in, the current record holder sent his tape in, a 32 minute run. Its insane.
Cypher @ Apr 24th 2007 3:42PM
"The totally tool-assisted cheater at the bottom even got a firework on one of the levels. No idea why. You ALWAYS wait an extra second on that level to avoid the firework, which takes longer than the second you wait."
If it's faster, grab a copy of fceultra, a SMB rom, and say to the community at tasvideos.org that you do indeed save a few frames by waiting a second. Those guys have picked SMB apart like crazy, and they would know whether or not if the run is as fast as it could be. Waiting a second or not and getting the firework would be something that they'd investigate in a heartbeat, considering they've gone so far as to note that level changes only occur every 21st frame (this lets them do some entertaining things in the level that would slow them down, but actually doesn't because of that frame limit)
Rubang B @ Apr 24th 2007 5:34PM
@Phazon and idiots,
Kessler's not cheating when he jumps over the piranhas like that. It's just crappy hit detection. Anybody can do it. I wouldn't call it a glitch.
@Crono,
Yeah that SMB3 run is pretty neat, but it's a sham! I'm not just talking about the obvious cheating. He actually slowed it down to time everything flawlessly, but when he sped it back up, he sped it up too much! I've hit start on that video and pressed start on my NES controller at the same time, and somehow he's running faster than me. Other than that, it's an awesome video, especially with the cannons in world 8.
@idiots and Cypher,
Ok I czeched out all the videos, and maybe it is faster to get 1 firework than wait until the timer reaches 0. But when you're not doing a tool-assisted run, you never get to a flag with the last digit at 1 anyway. So I've never had to deal with only 1 firework. The problem is that you get to the end of 8-3 with 243 seconds left, and then you have to wait until there are 242 seconds left, because 3 fireworks would take too long. I assumed it was faster to wait either way. Word up gentlemen.
Mr Khan @ Apr 24th 2007 6:49PM
@ Rubang B
I believe, pertaining to the Pirhana Plants, that only if you touch the surface of the warp pipe itself do you actually take damage, but the game gives you the advantage on hit detection. A fireball anywhere on that thing will take it out...
kihadat @ Apr 24th 2007 8:33PM
it's all worth it just to see that spectacular ending.
Pata Hikari @ Apr 24th 2007 9:31PM
O.O Holy crap that guy is just less then a second slower then a Tool Assisted Run?
Wow, that's.. super impressive. =o
Gary Combs @ Apr 24th 2007 9:59PM
Well, I might be mis-remembering here, but I believe I recorded myself playing MegaMan 1-4 without dying. (possibly 5 but i don't think it was out yet) More likely i died a minimum of 5 times with a maximum of 12. (Though I bet I beat MM2 without dying) Anyway, I know where the tape is, if I could find a VCR.... Hopefully the tape still works, and that my parent's have not tossed it.
idiots @ Apr 27th 2007 5:29AM
Seriously, are you people all that retarded that you don't even look at SDA rules? They clearly state that you cannot play on an emulator. I can assure you the process of reviewing these tapes is EXTREMELY thorough. And, to be frank, all of these tricks are possible.
Scott Kesslers run uses glitches. Do you think the programmers intended for you to be able to jump through the plants, or that "dissapearing plant?" How about jumping through bowser's hammers? TG is just idiotic in their rules, and most of their records are laughable.
Further, do you guys not see that the flag has to come down either way? And it is actually faster to get a single firework, due to the nature of the timing in the game. Do you think people are that dumb, to spend hours and hours playing this game, to not realize and test these simple things?
And this article is posting a fallacy. ALL 3 runs use different timing methods. There was a previous run at sda that was 5:06 without the glitches andrew g used. The TAS is actually 4:57 using the same timing rules. Time it yourself.
idiots @ Apr 27th 2007 5:33AM
Crappy hit detection IS a glitch. It is something that was not intended by the developers of the game.