Manhunt 2 on Wii a concern for Florida Attorney General

I sure do hope they start an investigation into all toy guns and swords as well.

Best anti-kiddy nintendo PR ever.

And its free.

"training device"? Seriously, he thinks this could "train" someone in effective killing?
He's never actually played the Wii, clearly. Have him try playing Wii Golf, or even Wii Tennis and see how accurately it trains him for the actual act.

I Thought Jack Thompson was barred from making any marks towards Take Two and it affiliates and ManHUnt 2?

you can almost hear shiggy and reggie's combined laughter at the free ad campaign

i really don't want this game and wouldn't be able to stomach the violence myself, but this makes me want to buy a copy on principle.

He is worried about the children. And so is the ESRB, as the game is rated M for Mature. It is not for children.

Great, just what Nintendo needs.
More TV time. ;)

Until it's illegal, there shouldn't be anything to "look into."

is it really worth making flimsy legal cases against nintendo i mean this is the company who when universal sued them for donkey kong infringing on king kong got king kong made public domain

It's been said before, but I'll say it again...it is a mature rated game. End of story. Get a life you political hacks. Parents should be parents.

If anything this is only going to get the Wii more press and therefore more sales.

And this is why I hate living in Florida. That and the heat...

Ah, good ol' Canada. Don't remember if there's even been an issue like this in courts.

Well, considering that it's got a Mature rating and the system itself has parental control support, no biggie.

so how exactly does this circumvent that pesky court order regarding TakeTwo?

I have to agree with Jackie boy this time: Manhunt 2 truly IS a murder simulator.

Now there's an unfortunately acronymed occupation.

Ya know, Jack Thompson, is really gunna become the boy who cried sheep..

Its gettting sad that he has to try and put a stop to almost any violent game to come out.. When with the Government put an end to People like him who are bothering our Governments time with things that are stupid.. Games have a rating system, just like movies, and yet its not good enuf..

We need a law that puts a stop to worth-less People like Jack Thompson from gettin stupid things into a courtroom..

I can understand smoking laws prohibiting smoking in public buildings. I can also see the value in requiring some forms of gun control. But when yet another freedom of ours is being scrutinized, especially when it harms only those who are: 1) Not responsible enough to properly manage what their children play, or 2)When a store fails to follow the ratings systems we have in place FOR A REASON, then I have to draw the line.

If our freedom to purchase and play any videogame that we want is going to continually be under attack by these publicity stunt attorneys then I say it's time that we gamers fight back.

I say we start calling in negligence claims to local childrens services offices if we see underage children playing this game so that the parents are forced into taking some damn responsibility for once. Make it a more serious offense if a store sells a violent game to a minor but stop attacking yet another freedom for legitimate buyers who are of age and can make their own decision.

After all, you don't see anyone going after Playboy because it teaches kids how to objectify women. If we applied this line of thinking to everything then there would be absolutely nothing fun left in the world -for adults anyway.

That's like saying Guitar Hero is a training device for the real thing.

Oh yeah and to add..

Is Jack Thompson gunna ever go after Microsoft and their Flight Sim.. Cuz ya never know, I might learn how to fly a plane and....
(I think yas know where Im goin with that..)



Btw.. thats just an example, I myself wouldn't condone such an act..

Wow, this game went from being a Day 1 purchase to a preorder....

Also...

Dear Jack Thompson,

I look forward to watching your day in court as Take2 sues you for breaking a court settlement. First you've targetted Wendy's on this mission and now the game itself. I can't help but wonder if you'll blame the upcoming lawsuit on religious persecution as well. I hope your god is a better lawyer than you are. Tee Hee, don't drop the soap and stay away from "salads."

@megaStryke

I agree. It is a murder sim.

So what it The Godfather for the wii? A beat the crap out of someone simulator? A mob wanna be trainer? Is Cooking Mama as slice and dice trainer? Is Red Steel a sword fighting trainer?

How can they just single out MH2?

Here, here, UpIrons, good show.

As some other people stated, the truth of the matter is regardless of whether or not this should be an issue, the motion controls for this game (at least what we have heard about them) do cause this game to be a murder simulator. I hope we don't overlook this fact in our defensive of our games and the during the offense of such fools as J. Thompson.
Look at it this way, holding the remote downard and the performing a backswing and follow though toward a virtual ball is simulating a swing. If your onscreen avatar is doing simliar motions that ends up hiting a onscreen ball toward an onscreen hole, you have just performed simulated golf. Holding the remote in the air and pulling them in a strangling motion is simulating stangling someone. If your onscreen avatar is doing simliar motions that ends up killing another onscreen character, you have just performed a simulated murder.
The real question isn't whether or it (and the Godfather) is a murder sim, but who is playing the games and why. Don't attack the genre, attack those who are not applying the restraints that are already in the market, ie parents parenting, and stores not selling to minors.

What happened to my formatting?

As some other people stated, the truth of the matter is regardless of whether or not this should be an issue, the motion controls for this game (at least what we have heard about them) do cause this game to be a murder simulator. I hope we don't overlook this fact in our defensive of our games and the during the offense of such fools as J. Thompson.

Look at it this way, holding the remote downard and the performing a backswing and follow though toward a virtual ball is simulating a swing. If your onscreen avatar is doing simliar motions that ends up hiting a onscreen ball toward an onscreen hole, you have just performed simulated golf.

Holding the remote in the air and pulling them in a strangling motion is simulating stangling someone. If your onscreen avatar is doing simliar motions that ends up killing another onscreen character, you have just performed a simulated murder.

The real question isn't whether or it (and the Godfather) is a murder sim, but who is playing the games and why. Don't attack the genre, attack those who are not applying the restraints that are already in the market, ie parents parenting, and stores not selling to minors.

And so begins the death of Nintendo's "kiddie" image in the public media

RIP: 1992-2007

I pwn n00bs, I mean.... simulate murder in Counter-Strike almost everyday.

Reading retarded comments on the J really gets my juices going though.

Mr Khan, No one has (seriously) viewed Nintendo as "Kiddie" since the early Cube days. anyone who was still refering to them as such is generally seen as someone as a fanboy and ignorant. They cater to ALL ages. Kiddie, would imply they only cater to kids, and last time I checked DS and WII had MAJOR appeal to ALL ages, esp the more mature crowds.

@Almack64

I dare ask of you, why is Manhunt 2 the first, then? After all, on NES, I was shooting ducks and clay pigeons with great accuracy. No one told me this was a simulator. On LA Guns, I was laying down 400+ bullets a second on jetpacked terrorists. And yet nobody told me this was a terrorists suppression simulator. On Fighting Mania, when I delivered 50 blows in a matter of a few seconds, no one even tried to tell me I was training to become a wasteland warrior. On the Namco Katana game, I had no doubts as I finished it that any Kenpo tournament would leave me broken and shattered by people who trained in reality rather than fictional fuedal japanese castles loaded with ninjas and onis. And as I played Mo-Cap boxing, I would not be prepared to take Mike Tyson no matter how high my score. In Guitar Hero and Beatmania, both the skills to play guitar and DJing are hard fought roads than Harmonix and Konami just don't prepare you for.

So what is a simulator? Well, to actually be a simulator with the registered capacity for training, you have to offer a realistic experience. For example, a force feeback situation must be implimented. So as I spin my wheels, I HAVE to feel the resistance of the road as the wheel attempts to pull itself from my control before it's of training calibur. Likewise, on the flight simulators I work on, you HAVE to feel the resistance on the Yoke's controlls before we can achieve even the basic level of FAA certification.

So does Manhunt have this? Actually no. There is no resistance as I swing an axe into someone's neck. The Wiimote simply keeps going. There is no resistance applied as I push a Blade through a sternum. In fact, all the kills can be considered, at best, minigames. No more applicable to the real world and real world violence as Cooking Mama is applicable to real cooking.

So I submit to you, dear sir, that your are every bit as stupid as the bible thumping, tragedy chasing idiots that gaming in general despises. This is no murder simulator. This game does not teach you to kill anymore than Mortal Kombat (or will you proceed to telling me ripping a human spine out is as simple as poking forward and twisting your arm clockwise?). Please don't be a moron. These are minigames and the moment you say "well, they have a point with this" is the very moment you weaken your entire arguement. So unless you want Terminator 2: The Arcade Game labeled as a murder simulator, accept that Manhunt 2 is, in fact, a fucking game. That's the alpha and the omega.

Nice One Sheppy.

@ sheppy

awesome post. i couldn't have said it better myself.

Murder Simulator? O'rly? Get real people, that's the most fuktarded thing I've heard all day.

Sheppy,

Thank you, after that well thought out post it is pointless for me to rant at those eediots.

I do have one question to those completely void or reason, logic or sanity.

If I swing the Weemote at a basball in Wee Sports, when do you think I will have trained enough to go sign with a MLB team?

When I swing the Weemote in Tiger Woods, how long do I have to train to challenge Tiger to a game?


Amack64
Slvgun
MegaStryke
and anyone else who agrees with them,

Put on a Nazi uniform, get some books, burn them, and then go frack yourselves....Gods you are pathetic

"Put on a Nazi uniform, get some books, burn them, and then go frack yourselves....Gods you are pathetic"

Okay, not quite sure what this has to do about anything aside from the whole censoreship issue. And Nazi's aren't exactly the first organization in history to use propaganda and censorship to sway the public.

I'm starting to believe those people are secretly getting payed by Rockstar to start crap like that, honestly.

@GodisaMyth

You compared us to Nazis. You have invoked Godwin's Law. Therefore, you lose the argument.

Do some of you people understand what a SIMULATOR is? It simulates an event. It doesn't recreate an experience down to the T because then it would be the real thing.

Games in the past haven't been described as simulators? Get a clue. The whole purpose of immersion in video games is to simulate an actual experience. Pole Position was considered a racing sim, and that thing came out in 1982! Light gun games ARE simulators. You heard of the Police Trainer arcade games? It friggin' states in the title that it trains you in the use of firearms for use on the police squad!

Manhunt 2 is shaping up to be the closest video game to mimic various brutal murders of your choosing. How close will we have to get to the real thing before you realize this? Manhunt 3 will feature a mannequin peripheral that screams, bleeds, and vomits as per your actions upon it, which are then translated to images on the screen. That thing will come out and you people STILL wouldn't think it is a murder simulator.

The problem that Jack Thompson and his ilk have isn't that they refer to these games as simulators, but rather that they only see ONE facet of the game experience and choose to ignore any other redeeming qualities.

Nice free publicity for the Wii.

@megaStryke,

Dude, I see where you're coming from and I still consider it horseshit. Incidently, find me ONE police officer that thought shooting bouncing colored orbs was firearm training on par with a firing range. Yes, the game is called Police Trainer. But do you HONESTLY think it served that purpose? Has your goal to defend your precarious position really taken that long a trip in the short bus?

Look, if we take it at the most primal terms, yes, Manhunt 2 is a murder simulator. Because you are killing and it's simulating that experience. You win that point, however I implore you to also consider that, should you win that point, than Legend Of Zelda, Twilight Princess is a murder simulator as well. Or did you really think the enemies you killed just phased out and ended up in happy, happy fairy land (soon to be featured in Tingle's Dingle Adventure 2: Electric Boogaloo). Think about it. You swipe a sword to kill an enemy. You aim with the wiimote and fire volleys of arrows and, guess what, you kill the enemy. Like it or not, same exact thing, different clothing. Likewise, games like The Godfather, Prince of Persia, and even Metroid 3 are becoming murder simulators. You are killing and you're doing the same exact style motions. The only difference is that Manhunt 2 wraps it up in a different wrapper. Period. Graphical style and story are the alpha and omega of the differences.

But even as we take that approach, suddenly we're left on an odd point. Because, as you've willingly given this title to the game, these same people associate sims with trainers. After all, I work on trainers everyday and training people there for major of the time saves schools a bundle in fuel. This label you've given the game has officially added legitimacy to the arguement. And what is the stance of everyone saying this is a murder simulator?

That these games are training our children to kill.

There you go. And you, unfortunately, have given them that. You've officially given the politicians credibility to a weaksauce arguement. You've told them that while I have to go through years and years and years of medical school before I can become a surgeon instead of simply S ranking Trauma Center on Hard, Manhunt 2 is suddenly going to send a huge pack of raging killers into our streets, our schools, our churches, and our homes. Congrats, fucktard. You've officially gathered enough validity to their arguement and as they all shuffle off into their safe corners attacking anything that isn't wholesome and white and christian, you're left going "Well... der I bet Manhunt 3 would have a training doll."

Point to all this? It is a rated M game. Children should not have it and the entire arguement aganst the game is "well what about the children?" Let me ask you this very simple question. Did the murder rate in the US go up or down after torture flicks (Saw, etc) became a big thing in American Cinema? Think carefully... the entire balance of your arguement hinges on it.

10. is it really worth making flimsy legal cases against nintendo i mean this is the company who when universal sued them for donkey kong infringing on king kong got king kong made public domain

Posted at 1:29PM on Jun 6th 2007 by daniel

No universal got king kong public domain in a eairler lawsuit

This may change my mind about the wii. I didn't want to get any next gen system because they all had serious flaws:

wii = too childish

360 =
*expensive
*too many problems with sytem: overheating, breaking disks, and noise
*games are pricey
*too many unincluded add-ons i.e wireless internet adapter, live fees, high speed fees, hd dvd player, e.t.c.

PS3 =
*too expensive
*poor game selection (at the momemnt)
*likes to take advantage of their customers
*games are pricey

sometimes i just really wish that the sega would make a comeback because it was truly the best gaming platform in my opinnion, but right when i was about to quit gaming alltogether nintendo starts to destroy the only flaw i had with it with resident evil and manhunt. If playstation goes out of buisness nintendos going to change up its style from kids only to everybody then it will destroy microsoft with its low prices, and inovation. But then again microsoft has its excelent and still growing online play, along with great exclusives, that would turn out to be one bloody battle. Alltogether this is great news for nintendo, and bad news for the mentality of human kind.

I was not implying that any of you are Nazi's. It was a figure of speech meaning if you keep finding reasons to curtail our freedoms as adults to watch and play what we want in the privacy of our homes as long as we are not hurting anyone then eventually we the Former United States of America (I will say this as long as Dubya and his Christian Fundy pals control this country) will start down a dark path that will eventually lead to untold suffering because politicians wanted to "protect" the children.

I will decide what kind of games to play for myself and my kids...not the fracking government.

I have been to countries that do not have the freedoms we do and trust me, you do not want to start down this dark path.

Stop justifing the Draconian bullshit and realize what you are saying.

Sheppy you keep bringing up so many valid points please keep it up, even though it does not appear to be helping.

I am more brash with my comments because the people that are defending/agreeing with the utter nonsense do not deserve anything else but ridicule.

Here is another question for the eediots,

In Christian Fundyland they have a theme park where they reinact the crusifixion of Jebus live with real actors. They encourage children to watch this execution simmulation. They use copious amounts of fake blood, and for me it was disturbing to watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztH9fVRQm4s&mode=related&search=

Yet, many kids are forced by their parents to witness this horror. I saw many of the kids crying and in obvious terror and fear.

I strongly disagree with this "event" but I will not say that they cannot do this as long as noone is being harmed. In my opinion this can do severe damage to an innocent child but hey, what do I know I am just an evil moraless atheist.

Sorry, I forgot the question.

Which is more of a real simulation?

This video of a live re-enactment of torture and murder OR a videogame on a tv screen.

Why are there not kids and adults nailing themselves to crosses all over the US? 200,000 visitors see this "show" every year yet no copycat crusifixions by 8 year old Jonny.

This is also a simulation so what is the expanation?

Could it be that even the closed-minded Christian Fundy fools know that crusifing someone is a BAD thing?

I'm sure there are plenty of TVs out there who are willing to testify that the Wiimote is a dangerous weapon.

As time goes by we see more and more situations like this being dragged into the government's lap by self-righteous freedom-hating zealots like ol' Jacko. I'd say that these disgusting individuals don't realize the damage they're doing to our civil liberties, but they do. They KNOW. And that's why they do it. They know that their actions can end up forcing other people to live the way that they feel is right, regardless of the fact that it isn't right. It's just plain WRONG.

I'm constantly shocked, appalled, disgusted and horrified that cases like this aren't IMMEDIATELY throw out of courts of law. The fact that these cases are even given any consideration by our country's legal system alarms me to no end. These are NOT issues that the government should be making decisions on. It's not their place or their purpose to regulate our entertainment.

In short ladies and germs; Welcome to the Beginnings of Communist America. This, my friends, is how the death of Liberty starts. I just hope that all of you are flexing those Second Amendment Rights, while we still have them; before it's too late.

@sheppy, GodisaMyth, and others

My goodness! Can you guys make an argument without the endless string of name-calling? You call us idiots, liken out actions to that of Nazis, and continually resort to childish ridicule. Also, for some reason GodisaMyth always somehow resorts to pushing his atheist agenda. In almost every single topic he posts in he feels the need to make some remark, allusion, or reference to "Christian Fundy pals," or some other equally ridiculous title. We don't agree with him, so we all MUST be close-minded Christian fundamentalists! First of all, I am agnostic, and second of all, what the hell does that have to do with ANYTHING? STOP bringing it up! These are video game discussions! Stop bringing your intense hatred of all things Jesus-y or Buddha-y into every argument!

@just sheppy

As gamers, we get upset every time our pasttime gets singled out in a negative light. However, we need to stop letting our passion get in the way of our better judgment and realize that games do influence us much like how other forms of media do. People like Jack Thompson have this one-track agenda that makes overly simplified generalizations and baseless accusations, but in order to be a good debater you must see the grain of truth in the opposition.

Back to the Police Trainer game, yes, I said it was a trainer. Now, I can't verify its merits as a legitimate firearm training device, but it does touch upon several basic skills required by police officers. Mastery of the game requires aiming precision and accuracy, quick reflexes, and target recognition. What do real officers do on the firing range? They shoot at moving and fixed targets, cardboard cutouts, etc. Sure, there are no bouncing balls, but the training method is similar. The Police Trainer game is not an completely accurate simulation of firearm training because it doesn't account for wind resistance, tactile kickback, reloading, etc. In fact, actual firearm training can't teach you to kill live targets. There is no way to recreate the experience of bringing actual harm to another human being without actually doing so. What both training methods do accomplish, however, is the instruction of the fundamentals required in sharpshooting.

Games do this. Games can be a teaching tool. Games that we don't immediately think are instructional can offer nuggets of information. For as much flack as WoW catches, it does require a management of resources, leadership, and foreplanning. We all like to tout the benefits of gaming, like how dying kids help to cope with the pain by playing Ridge Racer or something. Don't you think it is possible that games can offer positive benefits AND negative consequences? A game that relies on stealth kills gives you a idea, despite its accuracy, of how to eliminate a target without alerting others. Unless you are in the Navy SEALS, I don't think common citizens are required to know that.

Now, you made a reference to Trauma Center, and yes, I stand by my posistion that it is a simulator. However, there are levels of ACCURACY in any given simulator that affect your ability to repeat the activity in the real world. Trauma Center lets you make incisions and remove shards of glass from organs, but the experience is simplified in order to be accesible for gamers. It doesn't detail all the other areas of knowledge one must pursue in order to become a competent surgeon. It certainly isn't preparing me to become an actual surgeon, much like how Guitar Hero isn't preparing me to be a real rock star, DDR, a real dance, or Manhunt, an actual murderer.

However, even if these games were 99% accurate, they aren't urging you to go out and DO that activity. Are you the king of Guitar Hero? Are you now going to actually pursue the life of a rock star? Unless there are some subliminal messages in these games, I'm not being told to actually commit these acts. There are exceptions, of course. In Guitar Hero, for example, Red Octane jokes that you should go learn real guitar. Nowhere in GTA or Manhunt do Take Two tell you that you should become ACTUAL carjackers or murderers.

Does Manhunt simulate murders? You bet it does. Does it give you incentive to go out in the real world and actually murder someone? No. THAT'S the distinction. These games may touch on immoral lessons, but you need to look at the other side of the coin and see what benefits they offer. In Rainbow Six, you shoot down people, but you are also performing group tactics, managing squads and measuring their safety. There's the offset.

Now, did the murder rate go up or down after torture flicks hit theaters? I don't know. I don't have the statistics in front of me. I think they went down, but that isn't a direct correlation. I will say that the movies demonstrate the means, but only the depraved will go out and perform the same actions.

@megastryke

Actually, I try to avoid commenting on religious statement replies. Because once you bring attention to it, it blows up into a religious war. And I find my insults clever and cheeky. I mean, how far do you have to go on the short bus? How many people GET that one? But I digress.

Fact of the matter is, I'd be willing to accept some of the negatives of video gaming if study after study after study didn't constantly tear those arguements apart. Here are the negatives of gaming culture that I'm willing to accept.

1. Too much gaming can impede social skills. Children tend to become introverted if they spend too much time gaming. Yep, proven.

2. There is a significant weight gain amongst our youth directly attached to TV and video games as a prime hobby. Yep, proven.

3. Violent video games can temporaily increase aggression. And by that I mean both that temporarily the effects last 5-10 minutes and that video games INCREASE and NOT create aggression. This had been proven. Long term effects remain purely in the land of fantasy, however.

And for your information, the violent crime rate, especially among youths, has been steadily decreasing. The drops began roughly around the birth of the Playstation (although crime statistics were leveled around NES era through the 16bit wars). With each year, the drops are more drastic. And I point this out because the drops inc rime rate and such are NOT being shown in certain demographics but rather the gamer age groups. Jack Thompson will have us believe the sole purpose of this drop is just because it's not being reported or filed correctly (yes, he's said that) but many school systems have come forward and said they are reporting incidents that, 10 years ago, would have never been reported to the authorities. So you have a reduction of incidents despite an increase in the reporting of these incidents.

In fact, even with VTech this year, we are actually seeing a drop of 200+ less gun deaths and a 1.5% decrease in violent crime from this same period LAST YEAR. And what of these reports that are saying everything Jack Thompson is saying? Actually, if you take single paragraphs out of the report, it's completely true. But that's the problem with these people who use these reports. It's the same with Global Warming data. An Inconvenient Truth, my ass. An Inconvenient full report so let's just present the limited areas that prove my point. Let's just put it this way.

The report he uses depends upon the idea of that aggression and violent tendacies I told you about. However, he doesn't mention that these are not long term effects. In fact, he blatantly lies about that part states that they are. Likewise, he doesn't mention that the effects are barely noticable, even in brain scans, within well adjusted children. In fact, it's often the neglected or abused children in these studies that the effects last the longest. Which brings up another question. Did the video game CREATE the aggression or was it always there. Surveys and studies all point towards violent people gravitating towards violent media. So the fact that Cho wrote horribly violent stories and plays is NOT suprising since it aligns itself perfectly with known data. And likewise, media never created that monster, merely attracted him.

So in other words, no. I will not accept the possibility that games like Manhunt 2 are creating killers. And that's because study after study, even the ones used against the industry, has shown this to be completely wrong. The entire stance holds about as much water as David Grossman's Killology theory. And I am saddened by the fact that David Grossman was once the White Houses gaming impact expert.

Good post megaStryke, think you hit the nail on the head.