Square Enix chief: 360, PS3 too fancy for today's market
by Ludwig Kietzmann 
{ Jun 12th 2007 at 8:54PM }
Though the exact word used by the Financial Times article is "over-engineered," a word we deemed too complex for today's headline. Yoichi Wada, chief executive of Square Enix, feels that consoles such as the PS3 and 360 are over-engineered and out of place in today's gaming market, noting that handheld platforms will be the ones to dominate this year. After handing Dragon Quest IX (and thus the keys to Japan) to the Nintendo DS and inundating the PSP with remakes, Wada's belief should come as no surprise."There is a new breed of gamers in the market – we have to make games for all kinds of people," he says. "In the old days, we could just focus on the PlayStation or the GameBoy, but the environment has changed completely." It's the same story we've been hearing for months, that one filled with flailing grandmas and casual players shouting "Blue!" at the top of their lungs. Wada isn't giving up on the hardcore gamer just yet, though. Despite thinking that "there are too many specs" on the more advanced systems, he reckons they'll fare better in "a year or two years." Isn't that about the time Final Fantasy XIII comes out?
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Raikage @ Jun 12th 2007 9:03PM
Though the exact word used by the Financial Times article is "over-engineered," a word we deemed too complex for today's headline.
LOL, Thats great. Thank you Mr. Kietzmann!
ttr @ Jun 12th 2007 9:04PM
Sounds like maybe technology is advancing too fast for them to keep up. And instead of trying to evolve their games like technology is evolving, they want to use their some old methods, justifying them by releasing the games on weaker systems so people don't have as high expectations.
John Stamos @ Jun 12th 2007 9:09PM
Apparently Sqaure Enix has hired the Unibomber as a consultant.
Raikage @ Jun 12th 2007 9:12PM
@ttr
Ya know... Dragon Quest (Warrior) hasn't changed much in all these years...
That doesn't mean it doesn't sell though... Kinda like Madden?
Don't hurt me fanboys.... Just an observation.... BTW I LOVE Dragon Warrior Monsters on the GB!
felixlighter @ Jun 12th 2007 9:16PM
It's the Wii affect and it's only going to get worse. Why would publishers and developers want to take huge financial risks developing games for the Xbox 360 or the PS3 when they can develop mini-game compilations for the Wii for a fraction of the cost. They almost guarantee a return on their investment.
Right now there are a lot of PS3 and Xbox 360 games in mid-development but I fear if the more powerful machines don't start building up install bases soon we're doomed to play canceled Gamecube games with tacked on waggle control and mini-game compilations this generation.
Look on the bright side though... You can spend some quality time with grandma while playing video games! Finally!
Scott @ Jun 12th 2007 9:17PM
Translation: "We've come to realize that DS has sold many more millions of units than the PS3 or 360 and it is extremely cheap to develop for! Profit!"
hvnlysoldr @ Jun 12th 2007 9:27PM
Square Enix's new motto is "DS prints money."
Step 1: Dragon Quest IX
Step 2: DS Lite
Step 3: Profit!
Rob Accomando @ Jun 12th 2007 9:32PM
I wonder why the Wii didn't get DQ9 and the DS get a spin-off.
I know the DS has a higher install base right now, but the Wii is a console and a full DQ would be better on a console, imo.
John @ Jun 12th 2007 9:35PM
This was a lame comment from a developer who (until very recently, apparently) tended to be associated with ART.
Squeenix made some gorgeous, great-selling, well-playing stuff for the last generation.
It's almost like they're warning us: uh... we don't want to invest in this right now, so don't expect too much; by 2009 we'll have the numbers in and our sponsors can afford to support us, so we'll be willing to take the risks, then.
It seems like a really... cowardly response from a company that was so great.
Things move so fast, though. It's as if this is issued from someone stuck in the past. If they don't continue developing for next-gen, they may be surprised to find themselves a premiere designer of last-gen games. Which is all fine and good, but they might find themselves looking enviously at the developers who took the risk, jumped off the cliff and actually flew.
We'll see which developers have lasting power by 2009, when a host of new ones will come in and some of the older ones will fade out.
bm @ Jun 12th 2007 9:37PM
Look, "felixlighter", I was just as pissed as you are when the graphically inferior PSX started getting popular and bringing gaming to the "mainstream". We're fucked, I thought! Now all we're gonna get in the future are skateboard games, MTV type games with hip-hop characters, the fucking Spice Girls, oh noes!
Of course, in the end I was forced to buy one myself, because as time went on and practically every developer had flocked to the console, I realised I was starting to really miss out.
The Wii is going to feel very familiar in that regard.
Freakhead @ Jun 12th 2007 10:13PM
All he's really saying is FF is going to the Wii.
I do think the 360/PS3 are a bit far ahead of the curve. That's not too good when console cycles are ~5 years.
It's not that folks don't want nicer graphics and what not. But do they want to pay alot of extra dough for it? Sometimes you reach a point (of diminishing returns) where things are good enough.
zwarrior @ Jun 12th 2007 9:49PM
Whenever I say blue in Brain Age it rarely works
Dan @ Jun 12th 2007 9:50PM
Just 'cos the Wii is pwning right now means nothing, PS3 and 360 will still be selling in 2 years, when everybody already has a Wii, and has it in its box in a storage cupboard.
John Stamos @ Jun 12th 2007 10:03PM
@ 11
You're saying it wrong. If you pronounce it "brew" it will register everytime.
David @ Jun 12th 2007 10:05PM
WWWWWWWWWWWIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
silence @ Jun 12th 2007 10:14PM
Worry not folks. The "Wii effect" is not happening and is not going to happing... period. The truth is, if you look at the coming releases for the Wii you can clearly see an all first party line up. More like the Gamecube effect over at Nintendo if you ask me.
I know for a fact that major Developers are making new IPs for the Wii but it's NOWHERE near the 360/PS3 games that will be showing up in a year or so.
If you ask me I think Sqaure Enix should stick to DS games if they feel that way. But they won't because the big $$$ are on the systems with legs.
Bad PR...
And yes... I do own a Wii... but I'm done Zelda:)
Cr33pingParanoia @ Jun 12th 2007 10:13PM
If that's how you feel Square, then I demand that you and Nintendo make nice and promptly do these things:
1) Put any and all future Kingdom Hearts games on the DS or Wii
2) Release Super Mario RPG on the Virtual Console.
Muttley @ Jun 12th 2007 10:25PM
I have so much fun when people predict the end of Wii in 2 or 3 years. I bet these guys are the same who predicted Wii would be a crushed by MS and Sony from day 1. Oh! Lets not forget the DS.
I know I know... it is just a delay of the inevitable. In 2 years Nintendo will be dead. RRRRIIIGGGHHHTTTT.
ill trooper @ Jun 12th 2007 11:57PM
But... I like "fancy!"
samfish @ Jun 12th 2007 10:27PM
"Why would publishers and developers want to take huge financial risks developing games for the Xbox 360 or the PS3 when they can develop mini-game compilations for the Wii for a fraction of the cost. They almost guarantee a return on their investment."
OR why wouldn't they develop those "epic" games on the Wii, since there's obviously still a market for it?
Oh, wait...they aren't doing that, either.
I hope you're ready for an industry-wide crash...
Matt B @ Jun 12th 2007 10:41PM
THe wii is the non portable DS.
BulletToothTony @ Jun 12th 2007 10:57PM
wow ps3 and 360 fanboys not flaming and uniting... this feels a little odd...
well to spice things a little i think that this statement was directed at the ps3.. i mean come on.. 360 to advanced HA!! jk jk
jaysins @ Jun 13th 2007 12:34AM
Sounds like they are trying to cover their ass and making an excuse. Their are already some great titles out for the 360 and PS3 and a really big year ahead for both Consoles. Plus the 360 and PS3 have some original IP's that look amazing and hopefully play as well, so to say that they're ahead of their time seems like trying to take the easy way out for not developing for the two systems yet instead of just saying, it's not our focus to come out with games until so and so date.
The two consoles aren't fully exploited yet but look what we have, Gears of War, Motorstorm, Forza 2 and Resistance to name a few. More importantly look what we're getting, Mass Effect, BioShock, GTA 4, Heavenly Sword, MGS and tons more, there is a lot of good and almost surely better games coming to the two systems. Even though I only own a 360 right now, I am excited for gamers on both sides of the fence as some extremely interesting games that look to push the boundaries of anything we've ever played before.
I'm glad that the "casual" game market is expanding though. I define casual as games that are simple to pick up and don't require any real investment of time or thought to beat. As long as we still have part of the industry catering to us more hardcore gamers it's a good thing. Though it will be interesting to see if the industry can support two hardcore consoles at it's current pace.
Drakkenmaw @ Jun 13th 2007 3:08AM
Welcome to the mainstream, people. Gaming is at a point where 60% of the American population says they play "video games" on a regular basis. Most of those are actually online flash games from Popcap and other "easy to pick up, easy to put down" casual microdevelopers.
When gaming becomes as popular as the movies, most games will become like most movies - populist, lowest common denominator crap. Sure, there will still be a market for "hardcore" adherents of the genre, in a few arthouse developers or a couple "flagship" games per year put out by the major studios, but the big money is in selling small mindless diversions to people who want to burn a little time in tiny chunks between other things.
Watching movies isn't a hobby for most people. It's simply something they do, between work and friends and their "real" hobbies. Games are becoming that for a wide range of people, and games are going to change to reflect that market fact. It's time to face the fact that the hardcore segment isn't the only game in town anymore, and you're not going to be catered to as much. The gamer geeks are not the mainstream, and gaming is going the way of the mainstream.
For better or worse, things are going to change.
BPM @ Jun 13th 2007 4:56AM
Drakkenmaw:
"When gaming becomes as popular as the movies, most games will become like most movies - populist, lowest common denominator crap."
Um... Most games already are like that. The ratio of good games to rubbish is very unbalanced.
The problem is, too many games are made, I feel. But most of these games are "me, too" games, trying to cash in on something else that's popular. Be it a movie, a comic book, or another game even! For example, after Brain Age proved be a big hit, a wave of "brain games" followed it.
Burnt Meatloaf @ Jun 13th 2007 7:29AM
"There is a new breed of gamers in the market - we have to make games for all kinds of people"
Why? Not everyone likes the same thing, so stop genericizing everything! Pick an audience and keep them happy.
"there are too many specs"
Then don't use the features you can't handle. There have always been multiple platforms on the market, each with its own way of doing things. Hey, these days you've got three consoles using PowerPC, lots of multiplatform dev tools, and systems that share a huge number of modern, standardized features. That's a far cry from what was happening 15 years ago! If specs make your head dizzy, then GTFO of computer software!
*felixlighter: "It's the Wii affect and it's only going to get worse. Why would publishers and developers want to take huge financial risks developing games for the Xbox 360 or the PS3 when they can develop mini-game compilations for the Wii for a fraction of the cost."
The "Wii effect" is just an excuse. Dev costs are not related to hardware power. If you spend too much money developing a game, that's your own damn fault. In fact, lesser hardware can sometimes require more funding, because of the ridiculous amount of optimization required to achieve the same results as other platforms, not to mention the lack of development tools, because modern tools cannot run on hardware lacking in performance and features. You're forced to roll your own tools, and that's anything but quick and cheap.
Anybody who complains that dev costs are too high needs a good crash course in software development, because they have no clue what they're doing.
Nintendo has always offered massive power at affordable prices in the past, with profitability at launch. They can't do that anymore because dev costs are out of control? Bullshit! There's a big difference between over-engineering a machine, and just giving up altogether.
The only thing that can be said about the "Wii effect" is that people have seriously lowered their standards -- because Nintendo told them to. Why the community has bowed so diligently is beyond me.
*BPM: "The problem is, too many games are made, I feel. But most of these games are "me, too" games, trying to cash in on something else that's popular."
Is this a recent enlightenment? From my experience, throughout the last 20 years, 90% of all games have sucked. There will always be more bad games than good games. The trick is to praise the good stuff. Reward good developers. Unfortunately, people are not very critical with their purchasing decisions, so bad games sell by the truckload.
I've had similar issues when I was a camera salesman ten years ago. I was shocked how many people had no idea what they wanted when they entered the store. I could sell them anything, but my boss always wanted me to sell them the cheap junk. I certainly don't miss that job, but it taught me one valuable lesson -- people WILL buy anything, and are ultimately to blame for all the shitty quality out in the market.
RCW @ Jun 13th 2007 3:36PM
The Wii will destroy gaming.
Zsavior @ Jun 13th 2007 8:07AM
People Keep blaming this on the WII, it isn't the WII's fault. You don't want to blame your precious Sony don't, but then don't be surprised when the shoe drops.
Sony gambled its gaming market on a Format war, they charged 600 dollars thinking people will pay for High end, this plan has back fired. The system practically chased people to the WII because people didn't want to support a trend of being priced out of gaming.
To sum up the market was not is not and will not be ready for a 600 Dollar Hobby system in the next year. The Wii effect is really the PS3 effect. On a different note, God forbid people like something different than high end gaming. The flip side of this coin is the people that are buying WIIs were not going buy a PS3 anyway, casuals don't give a damn what you like, never have and never will. They don't have to conform to the hardcore standards to like the games, this is another, fact that is always over looked.
Basic fact is the WII is a hit because people like it and the other options were not viable for their interest or the pocket book. The hardcore gamer as always is irrelevant, and can still buy a PS3 or a Xbox 360. The cold hard truth is the high end consoles priced out their market, and they didn't open up to a new one. If hardcore gamers were really supporting these high end systems software companies wouldn't be saying this, so there are two conclusions, either hardcore gamers can't afford them, or hardcore gamers have also turn their back on them.
Blame the Wii if you want but denying the truth won't get games on the systems any faster. Nintendo tried making a system that was graphics oriented and fun with the Gamecube, they got ridiculed and told to quit the console industry. They got their games ported over to the PS2 they got ignored by 3rd parties because they were called kiddie, all because they tried to live up to the "HARDCORE" gamer standards.
The hardcore gamers looked at nintendo and said "We don't need you" and nintendo looked right back and said the same thing, same as sega. You don't want to buy their products when catered to you what did you think would happen? Live and learn in my book, PS2 was the most inferior system of the last console war, hardcores ate it up. Nintendo does it this time and you cry foul play, I guess the kiddie company knows business after all.
Matthew @ Jun 13th 2007 8:13AM
You know for those of you jumping down the man's throat...have you actually READ the article? He's not actually talking down to the PS3 or the Xbox 360, he's merely referring to a substantial shift in the gaming culture from previous years. Not wanting to put words in the man's mouth, I'll still hazard that he is referring to the Japanese market.
The DS has done some very unique things to the market. Even if you considered the handhelds 'ghetto' kiddie toys compared to a home console...in Japan the handheld base there is overtaking that of consoles. And guess what Square/Enix is most famous for? Why it just so happens to be Japanese RPGs.
One only needs to understand Square's target market to see where Mr. Wada's coming from. Given that the largest installed base is now using handhelds...he's following his customers and their money which is what a good Chief Executive should do.
Evan @ Jun 13th 2007 8:51AM
@Burnt Meatloaf "The "Wii effect" is just an excuse. Dev costs are not related to hardware power"
Developers have said that dev costs are dependent on hardware power, you want to argue against developers about their costs?
"In fact, lesser hardware can sometimes require more funding, because of the ridiculous amount of optimization required to achieve the same results as other platforms, not to mention the lack of development tools, because modern tools cannot run on hardware lacking in performance and features. You're forced to roll your own tools, and that's anything but quick and cheap."
Completely false.
The Wii makes use of last-gen tools and middleware, which are feature-complete and mature! Wii games use familiar last-gen game engines, which the programmers already know intimately. As for optimization, well known GC optimization techniques still apply to the Wii, and Nintendo has a great online knowledge base for developers.
It's the PS3 that suffers. PS3 tools and middleware are still in the teething-stage, they are feature-incomplete and haven't had all the kinks worked out yet. PS3 developers are forced to fill in the gaps by writing their own! The hardware is new and the game engine is new, which slows down developers because they have to learn as they go.
WizarDru @ Jun 13th 2007 8:59AM
"Anybody who complains that dev costs are too high needs a good crash course in software development, because they have no clue what they're doing."
So your argument is that there is no cost difference in developing the art assets and graphical engine for Gears of War, Final Fantasy XIII and Wario Ware? Are you actually suggesting that with a straight face?
With each graphical step up, the development costs increase; this is a simple, demonstrable fact. A three-man team could develop Aegis Wing, but not Devil May Cry 4. With increased graphical power comes more expectations: if I'm playing Gears of War, I expect certain aspects of collision detection and level design that are neither needed nor present in a game like Marble Mania. Now factor in simultaneous support for SD and HD formats, surround sound systems, varying aspect ratios, variable hardware configurations (hard drive/no hard drive, HDMI/Component/VGA/SVHS) and a host of other differences.
Wada's point was a simple one: for the majority of people his company develops games for, the current consoles are more powerful than the majority of his consumers...and wasting development money catering to the hardcore instead of the broader audience doesn't make economic sense, right now. Consider that DragonQuest VIII, which sold 3 million in Japan on it's first week, was well within the reach of the DS with some tweaking (if you remove the voice acting). Would the more Toriyama cartoonish look of DQ really be enhanced that much more by HD? Final Fantasy, yes, but DQ not so much.
The "Wii effect" ignores the fact that terrible and casual games have been out there for generations...the only difference now is that, for the first time since the old NES days, the audience is broad and diverse enough that those gamers actually are buying those games in larger numbers again. With over 10 games in the million-seller category for the 360, the hardcore gamer is hardly being ignored....but unless you're name is GTA, you haven't sold a game that racks up sales over 10 million in over a generation. And when a game does that like Nintendogs HAS and NSMB is about to...the industry will take notice. Just like no one doubts that there will be a Gears of War 2. The 'Wii effect' is just the hardcore gamer suddenly realizing that he no longer is the sole voice in the marketplace that the developer will cater to, and he doesn't like it. TOUGH. Vote with your dollars, because at the end of the day, nothing else matters.
felixlighter @ Jun 13th 2007 9:10AM
@Burnt Meatloaf
Development costs are not generally higher for lower end hardware. With the more powerful hardware the end users expect the developers to take full advantage of that power. Just look how the size of development teams have increased as the consoles have become more and more powerful.
It doesn't matter how powerful the hardware, developers have to optimize their code because no matter what the platform, to compete with other developers, they have to get as much out of the hardware as possible. If a developer chooses to waste the power of the PS3 or the Xbox 360 just so they can be lazy and avoid optimization then that argument is valid. The games that result from that type of development will fail. Also, there exists development tools for the Wii like all platforms. If you are specifically speaking of the Unreal 3 engine, its not practical for the Wii but the tried and true Unreal 2 engine is a perfect fit.
In the end, though, the Wii effect I am talking about is a result of the target Wii audience. One thing that will always affect the cost of development, no matter the platform, is the scope of the project. The Wii is targeted at the general non-gaming public. These users don't expect large scale epic games. They are completely content with small scale casual games. The Xbox 360 and the PS3 audiences are still primarily made up of the traditional gamer, who expect larger scale games.
When 3rd parties create games for the Wii, why would they want to create hardcore epic games that are aimed at traditional gamers and only hit a small subset of the Wii's audience? Publishers and developers will try to match the Wii's audience with their games as closely as possible to maximize sales. Look at the games that the Wii has to offer and tell me that my argument is baseless. Wii owners, what games are you enjoying that are not either a mini-game compilation or wasn't originally intended for the Gamecube?
I own or have owned an NES, SNES, N64, GBA, DS and a Gamecube. I'm not against the Wii or Nintendo. I'm just not a huge fan of casual games and I'm afraid the industry is going to begin focusing on the casual gamer and neglect the traditional gamer as the Wii becomes more popular due to it's target audience.
felixlighter @ Jun 13th 2007 9:20AM
I typed that all up and WizarDru basically said the same thing... Well except for that last swipe at the hardcore gamer... I believe like most traditional gamers, I am speaking with my wallet but it's a drop in the bucket when compared to the endless potential the casual gamer brings to the plate. I don't blame publishers who go that road, it makes complete economical sense. It just leaves traditional gamers in a bad place.
samfish @ Jun 13th 2007 9:38AM
"When 3rd parties create games for the Wii, why would they want to create hardcore epic games that are aimed at traditional gamers and only hit a small subset of the Wii's audience? Publishers and developers will try to match the Wii's audience with their games as closely as possible to maximize sales."
"I'm just not a huge fan of casual games and I'm afraid the industry is going to begin focusing on the casual gamer and neglect the traditional gamer as the Wii becomes more popular due to it's target audience."
It's this kind of thinking that completely misses the point of the Wii, though. The Wii's target audience ISN'T casual/new gamers. It's EVERYBODY. Nintendo has said as much, too. Whether it's people who enjoy rhythm games, casual games like Wii Sports, mini-games or epics like Final Fantasy or Zelda.
So when someone says the Wii's target audience is the "casual gamer" that's just wrong headed thinking.
Miyamoto *himself* said that developers need to start putting some effort into Wii games and start making meatier content for it.
Benjamin Heckendorn @ Jun 13th 2007 10:26AM
What I don't understand is how many times are games going to become "casual"? According to the press, the PS1 apparently made gaming go "mainstream", despite the fact that everyone bought a NES, and an Atari before that.
Now in 2007 Nintendo's line of underpowered mini-game adapters (though I own and like my DS, good for trips) is apparently, "finally" making gaming mainstream? This is what the press is saying! How does this work exactly? The DS is selling great, but Gameboys have for years. The Wii has sold a lot, but unless I'm mistaken, less than the PS2.
This "over engineered" stuff is bullocks. Paying $250 for an Atari 2600 in the late 1970's is worse than $400 now when you consider inflation. Using this same logic, a person should buy the cheapest computer available when it's time to upgrade, and not something that's expandable or will last 2-3 years.
I don't game a lot (maybe play through 2-3 games a year) so technically I'm a casual gamer or close to it. However that doesn't mean all I want to play is Mario Party X though.
The Wii is old tech, but remember when the NES came to America in '85 the CPU was already 10 years old (and Nintendo, who can "do no wrong", had basically cloned it in order to not pay MOS for the 6502) Genesis had a 10 year old CPU... Z80 (Gameboy) predated the system by about 14 years... So history could repeat itself... ug... Glad I have a good PC!
WizarDru @ Jun 13th 2007 11:11AM
"I'm just not a huge fan of casual games and I'm afraid the industry is going to begin focusing on the casual gamer and neglect the traditional gamer as the Wii becomes more popular due to it's target audience."
I think part of the issue is deciding what constitutes a 'casual' game. Is New Super Mario Brothers or the original a 'casual' game? Is Guitar Hero or Dance Dance Revolution? Is Gears of War, when played on the Easy setting?
A lot of the current debate is colored by differing perceptions of the market. NSMB has sold over 9.5 million copies globally....yet no one claimed THAT signaled the end of the hardcore. Nintendogs has sold over 13 million...but that's on the DS and apparently doesn't count.
How does Dragon Quest fit into that equation? One the one hand, it's a fairly straightforward game. DQ8 was not that far removed from DQ1, gameplay-wise. Larger in scope, sure...but still a menu-based fixed-advancement system. Did it's relatively simple and casual-friendly play suddenly signal the end of development on games like Gears of War or God of War II?
The problem with the 'wii effect' argument is that it presumes that the hardcore gamer has always dominated the market...and that's not true. 20 years ago, virtually everyone played Super Mario Brothers. It came with most bundles of the system: that's between 40 million and 60 million copies. Similarly, Tetris came bundled with the Game Boy...and certainly that is THE original 'casual game'. The 'wii effect' is basically a variant of the 'kiddie argument', just with a new wrapper and a new presumed villain.
It's hard for me to buy into that argument when the most anticipated games coming up include GTA IV, Metal Gear Solid 4, BioShock, Mass Effect, Lair, Heavenly Sword, Resident Evil 5, Assassins Creed, and Too Human to name a few. And I find it kind of odd that people can harrangue the Wii for some of it's casual games but ignore (or praise) other companies forays into the same space, like Viva Pinata, Little Big Planet, Catan, Carcassone, Home, most of the contents of XBLA and the PS Store. [I mean, let's be honest, is a game like Joust or Pacman anything other than a casual game?]
Are there some crap casual games coming out? Regrettably, yes. But there always have been...the only 'wii effect' is that some of them have gotten a lot more credence, particularly in the early rush to get anything out the door for the wii's launch. The DS had similar trash out (PacPix, anyone?), but recovered handily. I don't think anyone wants rushed, lame software....but a game like Puzzle Quest, which takes Bejewled and turns it on his head, is an example of a Good Game, casual or otherwise.
Can someone give me an example of the PS3 or Xbox 360 having suddenly suffered some change in direction of upcoming offerings to accommodate this 'wii effect'? Because if "Little Big Planet" and lousy license games like Shrek are all that you've got, we're fine.
BiggerBoat @ Jun 13th 2007 11:10AM
@ the many that claim epic games only sell on the 360 or PS3.
TP has a higher attach rate than any game on those 2 systems except GoW. TP has sold 0.405 copies for every Wii, GoW just pips it on 0.422 copies per 360 sold and the highest ranking PS3 game is Resistance with a 0.377.
The actual sales of the 3 games are TP:3.24m, GoW:4.22m & RFoM:1.29m. I can see TP's total sales exceeding GoW's if the Wii keeps flying off shelves at the current rate for the next couple of months, which it looks like doing, but that's just speculation on my part.
Any other myths needing busted??
Evan @ Jun 13th 2007 11:17AM
@Benjamin Heckendorn "Nintendo, who can "do no wrong", had basically cloned it in order to not pay MOS for the 6502"
Remember that Commodore bought MOS, and was putting MOS CPUs into their own machines for far less than they were selling MOS CPUs to competitors. Imagine if Intel started selling Intel-branded laptops, and bumped the price of their OEM CPUs up so that competitors can't even buy the parts to build their laptops for what Intel sells their laptops for? That's effectively what Commodore was doing.
felixlighter @ Jun 13th 2007 11:49AM
This is my fourth comment on this post so I'll take a break from commenting after this unless I'm specifically called out...
@WizarDru
The highly anticipated titles you mentioned, with the exception of maybe GTA IV and Metal Gear Solid IV, are only anticipated by those who keep close tabs on gaming industry news. Their success will hinge on the marketing hype the publishers can muster up before each game is launched. Each one of the games you mentioned will most likely become a critical success but will they be as profitable as more casual Wii games? One things for sure they are higher risk investments.
The majority of games that are being developed for the Xbox 360 and the PS3 have been in development for a while... Before the Wii explosion. For the most part 3rd party developers banked on the success of the more powerful systems because Nintendo's unorthodox strategy was unproven. Now the success of the platform seems clear and more development resources will surely be moved from Xbox 360 and PS3 to the Wii. If that means amazing games will be coming to the Wii down the road, then I'm all for it. If you can base the future quality of games on what we've seen thus far, I doubt there will be much that interests me.
I'm not worried that PS3 and Xbox 360 will start mimicking the Wii. I'm more concerned that 3rd party developers and publishers will slowly decrease their support of the more powerful platforms until it's none existent. Not only does the Wii have insane momentum, sales wise, developing for the console is a lower risk investment. Economically, it's a publishers dream. I know it's a worst case scenario but what can I say? I'm a pessimist.
megaStryke @ Jun 13th 2007 12:01PM
@felixlighter
"I'm not worried that PS3 and Xbox 360 will start mimicking the Wii. I'm more concerned that 3rd party developers and publishers will slowly decrease their support of the more powerful platforms until it's none existent."
Welcome to the console race, where developers drop support in favor of machines with larger install bases. PS2, anyone? How about PS1? NES? Just names I'm throwing out there.
GWolf @ Jun 13th 2007 9:38PM
There is nothing the Wii can do that the PS3 or 360 can't do better. The interactive controls of the Wii will likely soon be improved upon by one or both of the other two. Microsoft may even be able to undercut Wii on price. Perhaps MS and Sony should send Nintendo a thank you note for validateing the concept for them.
Sounds like the writer is just being a Monday morning quarterback to me.
Burnt Meatloaf @ Jun 14th 2007 5:47AM
*WizarDru: "So your argument is that there is no cost difference in developing the art assets and graphical engine for Gears of War, Final Fantasy XIII and Wario Ware? Are you actually suggesting that with a straight face?"
Ah, art and graphics. It's always about art and graphics, because nothing else matters.
Think design. Flexibility isn't about cramming as many graphics features into the frame buffer as possible. It's about doing what you can with the budget you have. It's about effort, and commitment to doing a good job.
Not like anybody's into that kind of thing these days.
*Felixlighter: "With the more powerful hardware the end users expect the developers to take full advantage of that power."
Because only 100% utilization will be tolerated, and all of it MUST be used to render billions of polygons, of course.
*Felixligher: "One thing that will always affect the cost of development, no matter the platform, is the scope of the project."
Now we're getting somewhere. The scope of a project, fundamentally, has nothing to do with hardware power -- unless you start working on graphics before game design.
Once you start turning your design into a reality, that's when hardware power slowly starts to thin out, and you have to make compromises.
Remember what Carmack said about ID tech 5? Make games that are fun, and then pass them on to the art team.
*Felixligher: "The Xbox 360 and the PS3 audiences are still primarily made up of the traditional gamer, who expect larger scale games."
Explain XBLA and all the other remakes which are selling quite well. Of course, people wouldn't buy a 360 to play casual games, they simply have the option.
Nintendo makes you buy a freakin' second controller to play VC games. How cheap is that?
*Benjamin Heckendorn: "What I don't understand is how many times are games going to become 'casual'?"
Years ago, it used to be called "mass-market". Marketeers just use friendlier, cuddlier terms these days.
*Benjamin Heckendorn: "This 'over engineered' stuff is bullocks. Paying $250 for an Atari 2600 in the late 1970's is worse than $400 now when you consider inflation."
I do wish the consoles were cheaper, but over-expensive and over-engineered are different things. In any case, $600 is f'n crazy. To put the 360 into the same hardware camp as the PS3 is stupid.
*Benjamin Heckendorn: "The Wii is old tech, but remember when the NES came to America in '85 the CPU was already 10 years old."
Hardware engineering was a lot more difficult back then since testing tools and logic compilers were either poor or non-existent. CPU designs were extremely valuable and had MUCH longer service lives than today's hardware.
*WizarDru: "The problem with the 'wii effect' argument is that it presumes that the hardcore gamer has always dominated the market...and that's not true."
Never has been. When PCs still cost $3,000, people were just becoming horribly addicted to solitaire.
The PC? Now THAT'S an over-engineered gaming platform. Who would think anyone would spend $1200 for an iMac just to send e-mail and download songs at a buck a pop?
*Felixlighter: "The majority of games that are being developed for the Xbox 360 and the PS3 have been in development for a while... Before the Wii explosion."
I think you meant that developers were signing up for dev kits a long time ago. A lot of developers won't start actually working on real software until they know more about a manufacturer's business plan. The reason why there's so little PS3 software? No, it's not the dev costs. They put their plans on hold as soon as they were told 599 US DOLLARS.
*RCW: "The Wii will destroy gaming."
Listen to all those Nintendo fanboys praise the Gamecube's graphics for being better than the PS2! Oh, wait... now the Wii is out. Graphics don't matter anymore. Let's all play a minigame where we SHAKE THE WIIMOTE AS FAST AS WE CAN, and tell all our friends how fun it is, especially for a totally reasonable $250. Well, OK, about $400 after you buy a game and all those other accessories that don't come with the machine. Don't forget your extra controller[s] for $60 each so all your friends can realize how little they need online gaming!
Bottom line: the community that believes marketing hype and buys crap software destroys gaming. Nintendo, like any other company, is just out to make money, and will do whatever is tolerated in the marketplace.
Matthew @ Jun 14th 2007 8:12AM
Meatloaf...
You're missing a very important point, how well do you think an XBOX 360 game with a $5,000,000 budget, limited AI and SD textures is going to do in the market?
Games have moved into a very similiar category as movies and the consumers expect certain standards in their product. If developers skimped on production like you state, the end-product would definitely suffer, probably get low reviews because everyone expects HD in the two high-tech system, and most likely not sell very well.
It's wonderful to think about design first, and that a really great concept can sell well without all the bells and whistles, but that's fantasyland and not the world of business. History is lined full of individuals and companies that went broke no matter how great their invention/idea was.
The reality is that for a developer to compete in the 360 and PS3 markets, the budgets for those games will far exceed those made for the Wii or the last generation. That's not a spin, that's a statement being made by nearly every developer and publisher in the business. Are you really trying to say that you know more than these companies that do this as their regular business?...that their problem is with their design process and business model and that if they merely change their practices, they can produce games for the 360 and PS3 utilizing the same budget ceiling as the Wii?
Forgive me, but I don't think the problem is that simple.