Rumor: Microsoft adding extra cooling to repaired 360s
Is Microsoft finally taking a shot at Peter Moore's "moving target" failure rate? If indeed legitimate, this hardware modification suggests that the system's reported problems could be due to an engineering issue as opposed to generalized problems. Then again, it's no simple matter drawing conclusions based on nothing but anecdotal evidence and a tight-lipped manufacturer... and perhaps therein lies the real problem. Microsoft did not respond to our request for comment at the time of writing.
[Thanks to everyone who sent this in]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Moe @ Jun 13th 2007 3:00PM
Too little too late.
ALH @ Jun 13th 2007 3:04PM
how does this effect current 360 owners? The first 360 i had was dead out the box, the one i have at the moment is fine- but i'm a little scared to play it for extended periods of time just in case even though its yess than a year old.
Beni @ Jun 13th 2007 3:07PM
This is useless. They need to fix the xclamps, not add more cooling >_
loungemonkey @ Jun 13th 2007 3:10PM
It probably wont apply to any current customers. So yeah....
Tweak @ Jun 13th 2007 3:12PM
I agree with Post 1's comment. And...
"it it's broke, you should fix it."
I think it's supposed to be "if it's broke..."
Tango Charlie @ Jun 13th 2007 3:14PM
I soooo want to buy an Xbox, but these issues are soooo keeping me from doing that.
DWells55 @ Jun 13th 2007 3:15PM
This is great, but the real issue is the boards flexing under the x-clamps. This might even make that worse.
ktsau1 @ Jun 13th 2007 3:16PM
My 360 is on the fritz. I don't get the red ring of death, but it's something GPU related. Was playing GHII the other day, when all of a sudden, the colors took a dump. It was like going from 32bit color to 256 color. The colors were all washed out. Still playable, but not necessarily up to standard. Turned it off, rebooted, nothing. Tried switching the VGA cable to the Component. Nothing... Did the towel trick. It revived it for about 1/2 hr. I played Forza 2 no problem. Switched to GoW, and the colors washed out again. Kept playing for another 2 hours. It would occasionally look good again, and then go bad. After playing, shut it off. No graphics at all again... System boots, I can hear the intro, just no graphics...
Jason @ Jun 13th 2007 3:16PM
4/5 people I know with 360s have had to send them in for repair, and 1 of those had to do it twice. That's pathetic. Hopefully extra cooling will keep these boxes alive. Love the gaming, hate hardware failures.
thebigfatj @ Jun 13th 2007 3:18PM
Sites and surveys have been suggesting a 30-50% of 360 owners have had at least one failure. That, of course, isn't scientific but is absolutely outrageous considering the device has only been on the market for 18 months.
I hope this mitigates their failure rate, but I don't think it's a sufficient solution and I can't believe it has taken this long for them to even try something.
tf @ Jun 13th 2007 3:19PM
Mine red ring of deathed last night. I'm sending it away for repairs whenever the shipping container comes.
I will weigh it before-hand and afterwards with an accurate scale to see if it comes back with any new equipment.
Game Artist @ Jun 13th 2007 3:21PM
About time. I wonder when they did it? I had a repair a couple months ago. Make me want to open the box and see, but Im under warrenty again, so no.
Chessasaur @ Jun 13th 2007 3:21PM
Slightly off-topic, but has anyone heard of a "red-ring-of-death" on one of the new Elite models?
Phranctoast @ Jun 13th 2007 3:24PM
maybe they'll accept their mistake like Sony did with the fire batteries and just issue a recall. I dont know of one person anymore that is still on their first console. Good strategy MS to sell more 360's.
thebigfatj @ Jun 13th 2007 3:33PM
-------
Slightly off-topic, but has anyone heard of a "red-ring-of-death" on one of the new Elite models?
-------
Yes, despite them being out for a very short period a retail employee told me that they had 1 Elite returned for Red Ring of Death already out of 6 sold.
john @ Jun 13th 2007 3:37PM
Chessasaur,
I have an Elite, and I've had no major problems with it.
However...
I was playing some Halo 3 beta with a friend, and in between matches I noticed that a game box was leaning against the back of the 360, blocking the vent. I'm being super-sensitive about heat issues, so I went to move it (it was quite hot) and as I did the TV went black and the three red rings flashed quickly. I freaked out and turned the system off then back on again immediately. It booted up fine and I haven't had any other problems with it.
Watership @ Jun 13th 2007 3:39PM
@Tango Charlie, then you will probably never get an xbox 360. It's not that problems are there, there are some consoles that fail, but your fear of them failing is never going to go away. Fear, uncertainty, doubt. I'll keep you worrying about failure when you could be playing games.
loungemonkey @ Jun 13th 2007 3:41PM
The components in the Elite are NO different from the regular 360s.
Game Artist @ Jun 13th 2007 3:47PM
If you're that afraid, just spring for the extra warrenty when you pick up the 360. Or wait for the 65nm version this fall.
Chris @ Jun 13th 2007 3:56PM
You know what would be freakin awesome?
After yous end in your 360 for repair they send it back to you with an extra faceplate that says "Zombie 360" with stitches and the like on it. Since it came back from the dead and all...
Vidikron @ Jun 13th 2007 4:01PM
@18
That's not true. The obvious differences being the HDMI output and new digital scaler to go along with it. There are also differences with the power supply. They have also added some sort of extra epoxy/resin to help prevent the board from warping and thus causing the RRoD. Buit that's a pretty lame fix. All they have to do is change the X clamp. Such a minor change and all these issues go away.
kbunch @ Jun 13th 2007 4:09PM
I bought my 360 two weeks ago and really fear the Red Ring of Death. I am always checking to make sure it the intake and outtake vents have clearance so air flows. Also if I have to pause the game for mere then 10 minutes i turn the console off. I also keep that room at 70 deg. That is hard to do, I live in the desert in Southern Arizona. I have a year warentee but would hate to have to send it back.
Anam @ Jun 13th 2007 4:10PM
@Chris
LOL. I would buy one right now if it means getting a Zombie 360. I'll intentionally overheat it, just to increase the chances!
RHP @ Jun 13th 2007 4:10PM
What I noticed at Best Buy, the Xbox 360 kiosks have exposed video connection cables. Some keeps pulling those cables loose each week, causing the 360 to display a red ring (because no video connection is present). If you simply reseat the video connection, it's fine.
I'm surprised THAT has been addressed or fixed or even discussed anywhere.
Vidikron @ Jun 13th 2007 4:14PM
@24
That's a different red ring. No video results in all 4 quadrants being lit. The infamous RRoD, despite the name, is actually only 3 of the quadrants lit up red. I forgot which one isn't lit... maybe the player 4 light?
Fudge Brownies @ Jun 13th 2007 4:18PM
Geez, if you thought your current 360 is louder then a hoover vacuum sucking up cat hair, imagine the noise levels now from 2 fans running simulatenously!
360 - engineered with toothpicks and dental floss!
Mark @ Jun 13th 2007 4:36PM
@ 26: Dumbass. It's a heatpipe connected to another heatsink to allow the shroud to reach the GPU, not another fan.
DWells55 @ Jun 13th 2007 4:37PM
@Fudge Brownies, ironically one of the fixes I've seen for x-clamp related three red lights issues involves the wedging of toothpicks between the PCB and the clamp.
Adv2k1 @ Jun 13th 2007 4:50PM
shameful. elite should of set this as standard.
wii is probably going to equal out or be very close to being same amount of units sold worldwide by the end of the year and stupid things like this are the reason
Jake @ Jun 13th 2007 4:52PM
One quick point before I go into a speel. MS did not plan to have hardware issues to "sell more systems." That is ludicrous. It hurts their reputation and their userbase size. It loses them money because they are doing warranty work for free, replacing consoles for free, and selling new ones at a loss. The idea that this is somehow an MS conspiracy is dopey as hell.
With that said...
I'm on my 2nd 360 and the first one lasted about 10 months or so. I personally know 7 people really well with 360's and kinda know an additional 5. None of them have had a single issue. I don't know how many it truly is overall, but I kind of doubt 30-50%.
The internet is a tough place to follow that because people with problems are much more vocal than those without. People who come to these blogs probably use their systems 10 times as much as most and are 10 times as likely to have a failure. People who don't even own 360's probably often post some BS about them breaking down. But the bottom line is that it has gotten the reputation by having more issues than the average system. I recall the PS2 having problems early on as well. I went through two of those before getting a good one that lasted me quite some time, but it was a 3rd year system that actually lasted.
If you are getting a 360 or want one, and there are obviously plenty of reasons to want one, just get it at Gamestop and get the 1 year warranty or buy an additional warranty from wherever. That, or just wait for a 65nm chip. Take it from a multi-console owner that the 360 is DEFINATELY where it's at when it comes to games and the summer/fall is looking just sick. I know several PS360 and Wii60 owners (oddly no PSWii60 ones though) and everyone plays the hell out of the 360 and rarely plays the other systems, especially the PS3.
But at the same time, if you can wait until November-ish to Feburary-ish, the 360 will have a 65nm chip, which should increase reliability and decrease power consumption (cheaper to run), and a significant price drop. And the used game racks will be pimpin'.
I personally wouldn't be able to wait that long for Bioshock, Forza2, Mass Effect, Too Human, Two Worlds, Halo3, Unreal III, Gears, C&C, COD, R6V, GRAW, Viva, PGR, GHII, and many more. But if you can I guess you'll save some money in turn for lost gaming time. Or you can stick with a different console only and play a sub-standard game selection.
Basically, last gen the PS2 was the system a gamer had to have and I think this gen the 360 will be that system. They will each get some awesome titles and owning all three is ideal. But seriously, between now and Christmas the 360 is getting some seriously amazing shit. I don't see how you could not want one, to be honest.
I may sound like an over-zealous fanboy, but I am really not. Just a guy who knows what he likes. NES, SNES, N64/PS tie, PS2, 360. Those were my favorite systems of each generation so far.
AlmostFanBoi @ Jun 13th 2007 5:02PM
@30
I am almost a fanboi as well. I got mine a few weeks ago and just love it. I had a Wii, sold it to get a 360, and I don't miss it at all. Compared the Wii feels like a gimicky Toy. I only have Foreza, but I enjoy the hell out of it. MS has done a great job with Live. I also have Geometry wars, Uno and Pac-Man CE. Great games.
Gimbal @ Jun 13th 2007 5:36PM
Interesting. I just made a BGA repair stencil for the 360 GPU for a customer last week. I couldn't find the array specs on the chip so I had them send me one of them so I could measure it here. Well, by GPU I mean the whole thing including the daughter die and a few resistors that are on it.
I'm on my 3rd (technically 4th, long story) 360, so I felt like I had a hand in increasing the turnaround time for repairs. I wanted to ask the customer more specifics about what they were doing but that can be awkward at times. But if mine is ever out of warranty maybe I'll call them up and ask for a favor. Not that I hope mine dies again...
Dash @ Jun 13th 2007 5:42PM
I know at *least* 15 people with 360s in real life(not on the internet)and none of them have had to return them. I'm not a 360 fanboy by any means and I think that the "50% failure rate" is grossly over exaggerated. I've had mine for a year without a hitch and I'm confident that it will last me a long time.
why not the LS2LS7? @ Jun 13th 2007 5:57PM
Reliability-wise, 360 is a disaster. Has some good games though (playing Forza 2 on my 2nd 360).
to #15: there was a picture of a red-ringed Elite posted to the net the day it came out.
Why do people think that 65nm is a panacea? It is possible to make a 90nm machine reliable (Sony did it!), it's just that MS failed to do so. There is absolutely to reason to think that MS can't screw up 65nm too. This is some weird blind faith here.
Scott Baio @ Jun 13th 2007 6:00PM
I'm with Dash here. No one that I know in "real"
life has ever had an Xbox 360 die on them. My launch console has never had any problems which is suprising because I'm in Vegas and my room can get extremely hot.
I take all the online testimonials with a grain of salt.
Steve @ Jun 13th 2007 6:17PM
Many have mentioned waiting until fall or winter for the 65nm chip which promises to resolve the overheating issue, but I'm tired of waiting. The 360 has some great games, but the hardware is just too unreliable. Last fall we were told that the 65nm chips would be in use early 2007, then Microsoft released the new "Elite" system but failed to use the new chips. When Microsoft dropped that ball I gave up on the 360. Clearly Microsoft doesn't give a damn about resolving their engineering flaws. I'm going to skip out on next gen gaming this cycle and stick with my Wii. Hopefully by 2011 Nintendo will release a system with good graphics.
GoonieGooGoo @ Jun 13th 2007 6:43PM
Just so I can say it.....the 4 XBOX 360s I bought for myself and my famly at launch are all doing perfectly fine....and they get played ALOT.
RED RINGS OF DEATH....I defy thee!!!
DudeGuyMan @ Jun 13th 2007 6:59PM
I really hope this helps! I love the 360 but I am awaiting my 3rd one right now:
- my first one died after 6 months on May 3.
- I received my refurb on May 22nd
- my refurb died on June 5th
- I just shipped back my refurb and am waiting for another crap refurb
Also:
- my nephews are on their third (all in the first 90 days after launch). Good since...
- my nephews friend is on his third
- my sister's hubbie is on his second
- my nephew's girlfriend's brother has a launch console that just died and has not called yet.
- a family friend who bought one in March 07 had it die after a month
Failure is 100% as far as I'm concerned. I have zero faith in it lasting for any duration. I have the HD-DVD add-on and the wireless wheel and a whack of games, not to mention XBLA games, which I am waiting for Microsoft to credit my points for due to their stupid DRM. I love the gaming, I just hate their build quality and "workaround" service.
nxtiak @ Jun 13th 2007 9:38PM
To those who don't believe the failure rates, and know 15 people in real life who has perfect running 360s... You think there's only 1 or 2 people with problem 360s flooding millions of websites posing as millions of different people saying they have broken 360s? Get Real. The Problem is Real. The 360 hardware sucks ass.
I work at a retail store and know of many people in real life who have replaced their 360s more than once and some more than TWICE.
I had a Launch Day 360. Died in February 2007. 2 Months after warranty. MS wanted $170 to fix it. I sold it on eBay for $172.
Bought an Elite in May 2007. About 19 days later, I get graphic glitches and hang-ups. Then 3 Red Ring Of Lights. It's in transit to MS Repair Center. Been 1 Week 6 days since I made the phone call. (took 1 week 3 days to receive the pre-paid box).
I never liked the original Xbox (played less than 5 hours on the system), I wasn't interested in the 360, but went ahead and sat in a line for 10 hours and got one Launch Day Morning. I LOVED the 360, It was awesome (for 1 year 3 months till it died). I was telling everyone to get a 360, tons of potential, XBLA is awesome. I have the HD-DVD, and WiFi adapter. Networked to my PC with Vista, etc..etc.. Hell I even have an MS ZUNE.
Now I hate the damn 360. It's a piece of crap and I'm going to be freakin' furious if the replacement Elite gets the 3 Red Rings of Light again.
Xanto @ Jun 13th 2007 9:38PM
God I hope so, I have to send mine in this month.
adam @ Jun 13th 2007 9:56PM
My machine is going out for repair within the next couple of days... I just weighed the system with a scale accurate down to the tenth of a gram. It is recorded to weigh 3008.1 grams. When I get the machine back, I will weigh the system again to see if there was an addition. Lets see if Microsoft is adding stuff to the system. I'll be pissed if they are fixing a design flaw. (My red ring error code was 0110).
ill trooper @ Jun 13th 2007 11:17PM
Well, that pretty much tells us what many have suspected, but have been told otherwise:
The 360's original design is flawed.
Microsoft is stepping up and changing it. No official admission of flaw, though, right?
Maybe we'll see another SKU? "Elite Cool+"
Virtua Fanboy @ Jun 13th 2007 11:27PM
HOLY FUCKING SHIT NOT RIGHT AFTER READING THIS ARTICLE I FIRED UP MY 360 AND I GOT THE RED RING OF FUCKING DEATH.
I've posted on this site before and I've even called people liars for this but I swear it's freakin true. They want me to send it off, and pay $140!!! Man I'm so pissed. My Xbox was fine for the first year and a half when I had it standing up. Maybe since I laid it on it's side for bout a month thats why it's messed up. That's my only guess. It got a little hot in my house today but all my other stuff faired fine. Fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck. Guess I feel a little better know.
I turned it on twice, red rings. Unplugged everything and turned it on a third time, IT WORKED!!! Turned it off and back on, red rings every since.
Any ideas and suggestions guys??? I've heard some trick about a towel? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
tobin92 @ Jun 13th 2007 11:39PM
My system has had a problem where is get the red lights randomly that last for a few hours to a couple of days since launch. It then correct itself and works fine for a month or 2. After having this happen again for the 5th time, I decided to get a repair even when it is working fine now, I fear it will crap out in the fall, rendering me unable to play Halo 3,GTA 4...etc
. While it is out of warranty, MS understood it was the same problem that is reoccurring ,so they agreed to fix it for free.My coffin is in the mail, And I am hoping it will be fixed with this new heatsink.
zeh @ Jun 14th 2007 12:38AM
Sooooo, would you prefer to buy 1 ps3, or 2-3 360's depending on your luck. Seems cheaper to me buying 1 ps3.
Hello Pussy Cat @ Jun 14th 2007 2:35AM
The PS3 is actually a better deal when you consider the fact that its pretty much MANDATORY to purchase an extended warranty with your 360 is you want it to last longer then 12 months.
Xbox 360 Elite = $479
2-yr Best Buy Extended Warranty = $189
HD-DVD Add-on = $199
CA Sales Tax (8.25%) = $71.53
TOTAL = $938.53!!!
PS3
Gimbal @ Jun 14th 2007 8:29AM
#44 - The towel thing, as stupid as it sounds, might work in a few situations. This is like putting the board through a reflow oven to get the solder to *maybe* re-attach correctly. Plus there is a risk of other solder joints that were once working fine to do something you don't want them to.
If you are out of warranty, the repair cost is around $150 or $175 I think. Free shipping both ways and MS puts a 1 year warranty on the repair, which is cheaper than buying a new one.
#47 Hello Pussy Cat - The price of that Best Buy extended warranty is insane. You could send a 360 back for repair yourself for the same amount at any time during your ownership, not just the first 2 years...plus you'd get a year warranty on the repair afterward.
http://www.xbox.com/en-US/support/systemsetup/xbox360/resources/warrantyupdate.htm
I'm not defending the high failure rate, I just don't want people thinking a $189 2 year warranty is a good deal or a good idea...or even mandatory.
Christopher @ Jun 14th 2007 12:44PM
I personally know of 7 xbox 360's including my own. All of various vintage (mine being the oldest... I want some a commission or something!) and all are working just fine.
I can't say the same about the other owners I know from the online communities and clans I'm in. Without taking a survey I'd peg the number of failed units from that sample at around 10%-20%. It does seem that those that have failures have multiple failures which could point out a problem with the repair process which has been evolving as time goes on.
Digi Smalls @ Jun 14th 2007 7:58PM
maybe its just a bad factory. my '05 unit hasn't had a single problem.
nice dig with the SKU comment, trooper. huh, what?
.
idioteraser @ Jun 14th 2007 9:21PM
"It loses them money because they are doing warranty work for free, replacing consoles for free, and selling new ones at a loss. "
Ah Sony did the same with the PS1 and PS2. You forget that Nintendo is the only console company to make money off each piece of hardware sold. Sony and Microsoft try to make money off the game software not the hardware. However developers want to develop games for the hardware that sells the most so if people are buying replacements after a year or two that ups the hardware numbers.
Sony had several class action lawsuits settled that showed they had done the risk loss assestment and knew they could get away with it.
Microsoft hasn't made money on the xbox or the xbox 360 it's a trojan horse for them not a profitable business.