Team Ninja designer tells complaining PS3 devs to 'get out'
by Ludwig Kietzmann 
{ Jun 14th 2007 at 8:55AM }
Hayashi explains that in being a creator of games and in position to receive money from players, Team Ninja "shouldn't complain about the difficulty." Outspoken he may be, but the man at least implies that he'll stick to his guns as well as the PlayStation 3. "As I said, people who complain about the difficulty of creating games for PS3 should get out, right? While I'm saying that kind of thing, if I get out myself, then what I say doesn't mean anything! So, I should stay - right?"
You be the judge of that when Ninja Gaiden Sigma gets out in a few weeks.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
FrankTheCrank @ Jun 14th 2007 9:02AM
He's right. People who find it difficult to develop for are just being whiners. Those who can grasp it's powers and create amazing looking games, will prevail and sell more games.
Ninja Gaiden looks amazing. I cannot wait for the finished product.
Zsavior @ Jun 14th 2007 9:03AM
I have to agree in small way, if you think it is to complicated to develop for, then just leave a small press comment that the game wasn't going to leave up to expectations and work on another project else where. You should know what you are getting into when you start developing for a system, why make excuses for a game that isn't coming out the way you like.
jsn @ Jun 14th 2007 9:06AM
This coming from the guys who haven't made an original game in 10 years...
and no, he's not right. The industry as a whole doesn't want to have to devote a team just to understanding an architecture in order to get the most out of it. The tools should do that for you. That's where the industry has been going for years and Sony built something that fights that basic concept.
sheppy @ Jun 14th 2007 9:14AM
"and no, he's not right. The industry as a whole doesn't want to have to devote a team just to understanding an architecture in order to get the most out of it. The tools should do that for you. That's where the industry has been going for years and Sony built something that fights that basic concept."
Sony built something marginally more complicated than the 360 that takes more time during the beginning on the core planning station. And Sony has been addressing this with their Playstation Edge devtools they keep releasing.
People love to think 360 has been harnessed to it's best power on Gears Of War... but Gears Of War, for the main programming, only utilizing one of the processors. Multiprocessor design is still in a largely infant stage. And while some developers are bitching, majority of developers are acknowledging the challenges put forth by these machines.
People love saying 360 is easy to program for. I know people who have worked on Saints Row, Lost Planet, and yes, even Gears. All of them have bitched at one point or another. PS3 is more specialized but hardly drastically more difficult.
Weazel1601 @ Jun 14th 2007 9:23AM
Its an easy thing to say when all you are doing is porting a game over to another console, and brushing up the graphics. I want to hear how he feels after making an original game for the PS3.
Jon @ Jun 14th 2007 9:20AM
He is right you know. If people complain about the difficulty in creating anything, not only the PS3, then they have no business being in the market in the first place. In any industry, difficulty is always there, but people who succeed will just get on with their jobs by not whining like a fanboy.
sheppy @ Jun 14th 2007 9:27AM
"I want to hear how he feels after making an original game for the PS3."
It was rebuild from the ground up. Art assets to code. And even tuned. It isn't a port, it's a remake. Big difference.
hvnlysoldr @ Jun 14th 2007 9:28AM
I'm still having a hard time going through SMB1 and Jumping Jack Flash on Hard Rock eats at me. I can't handle going through harder difficulty. Anyway Rachel clearly will never attain greatest female action star. Lara Croft and Samus got her beat.
Otis Whitaker @ Jun 14th 2007 9:29AM
It seems to me that western developers in general complain more about these sorts of things.
The same type of developers who rarely make their own engines, and such.
Jason @ Jun 14th 2007 9:41AM
Crazy Ken would say "you will want to work extra hours to develop for us." The extra time is spent on the 4th dimension.
So, let me get this straight... You can spend extra time and resources developing a PS3 game, or you can have a much easier go at it with the 360, and sell to an install base 3 times as large... hmmm.
Steve @ Jun 14th 2007 9:42AM
You want to name a major engine currently in use that WASN'T developed in the West?
Soo Sad @ Jun 14th 2007 9:44AM
Well Sony, your just digging a giant hole...
When you get done digging maybe you can throw your Cheap products in there!!!
sheppy @ Jun 14th 2007 9:48AM
"So, let me get this straight... You can spend extra time and resources developing a PS3 game, or you can have a much easier go at it with the 360, and sell to an install base 3 times as large... hmmm."
Define much easier. Next gen game development has increased difficulty by at least 3x. Seriously, do you people REALLY think Xbox 360 has a magic "make it work" button or something? Like you can type in your game description and XNA builds it automatically and then developers jobs reduces itself to watching a bar fill up?
PS3, according to most developers, is only slightly more difficult to work on. The 360 multithread parallel processing isn't exactly "Hello World."
jsn @ Jun 14th 2007 9:53AM
sheppy:
It's not marginally more complicated, it's significantly more complicated and the architecture is made more difficult by the poor quality development tools that are available for it. I'm not speaking on what I heard from a friend of a friend, I'm going on what I've been told directly from a friend who is a lead designer at a MAJOR developer. One that has been working with the PS3 since the first dev kits were shipped, when it was the size of an air conditioner. Beyond that, there are countless devs out there who have openly criticized it.
It's foolish to think that developers are going to be 100% happy with everything they're given. That doesn't change the fact that as a whole, Microsoft created a complete package. They built good, capable hardware and the software tools that help devs get the most out of that hardware. Sony, just as they did in both previous generations, created hardware that was complex and didn't follow up by creating the tools that allow developers to easily get the most out of it. They cleary went against where the entire industry was heading and their still WAY behind in that regard.
Creating complex hardware isn't a bad thing unless you fail to create tools that allow your devs to use it efficiently.
Don Manolo @ Jun 14th 2007 9:58AM
Well it appears that many developers took his advice and stop developing for the PS3.
The least the PS3 needs is less developers so I think his comments are hurtung the PS3 instead of helping it.
sheppy @ Jun 14th 2007 10:01AM
jsn, Sony has been releasing new tools and better documentation to their development community on a damn near monthly basis. At GDC, Sony released a ton of tools they dubbed Playstation Edge.
The tools weren't there initially, yes. But Sony has been cranking them out and sharing what they've learned along the way. Same thing that happened at both of their other console launches.
Anon @ Jul 8th 2007 5:49AM
Regarding SDKs and devtools, it would make a lot of sense that Microsoft would excel the most in delivering a complete SDK; they're a software company at heart. They've released countless APIs ranging from the Windows Platform SDK, DirectX, XNA, .NET Framework, etc.
jsn @ Jun 14th 2007 10:16AM
Sheppy:
Yah, I know they are now, but they're still way behind. They just have a different mindset in Japan. As Hayashi's comments support, Japanese devs are used to having to devote resources to milking the hardware. To them it's how things are done. It hasn't been that way in the US for a loooong time now. That's why so many US based PC devs avoided the PS2 and consoles in general for so long. The tools were just sub standard compared to what they were used to using.
BiggerBoat @ Jun 14th 2007 10:18AM
I wonder if this game will significantly impact the hardware sales, especially in Japan. Will be interesting to observe.
I also wonder if this game had never appeared on the Xbox whether some people would be claiming that this game couldn't be done on last gen machines or Wii with toned down graphics due to Physics, AI and the other usual suspects?
Hawko @ Jun 14th 2007 10:20AM
Hahaha, isn't this the same guy that just a while ago said that "Ninja Gaiden" would be so incredibly awesome that other developers in the same genre would just give up on making more games?
And now he's bashing the wimps that say PS3 is hard to make games for. This man is pretty hardcore. I believe he quite possibly could become my hero.
Jason @ Jun 14th 2007 10:19AM
Clearly this Hayashi guy is a delusional, arrogant fool. Look at this modest quote from a CVG piece:
"Our main goal has been to create a new playable character, the fiend-hunter Rachel, who will be considered the world's greatest female action character."
OMFG! Anybody who claims this kind of garbage instantly loses all credibility with me. How is this big-titted video game character different from the 100 or so others... fuuuuck you.
Steve @ Jun 14th 2007 10:24AM
An article from gamepro.com that's completely in tune with this article. If developer wants to release game as multi-platform, develop first on PS3. As developers get more and more used to developing for PS3 over the years, PS3 will really start to shine over other consoles.
http://www.gamepro.com/news.cfm?article_id=116728&AFC-HSUIT&ATTR=DIGG
jsn @ Jun 14th 2007 10:22AM
Anon:
MS entered the console market from a PC game developers standpoint. The reason many PC devs avoided consoles for so long was because of the poor tools. MS, being the software company they are, knew that tools were key. They'd already been climbing that mountain for years with DirectX. They really changed console development for the better and set the standard in that area.
Look at the comments of Sakaguchi (mistwalker). Here's a guy who had been developing from that Japanese perspective for a long time, but once he got a taste of how much easier good tools make things, he was hooked. It allows you to put all of your resources into the game and not waste time making tools to help you make your game.
sheppy @ Jun 14th 2007 10:25AM
@jsn,
Yes, they're behind. But the average thought around here is that deving for PS3 is trying to win Nascar with a Focus. Just not the case. Sony is usually pretty good about sharing their findings. We'll see PS3 build their dev tools and first ones out are often the most handicapped. The situation is NOT what is was at launch and people forget that.
@BiggerBoat
"I wonder if this game will significantly impact the hardware sales, especially in Japan. Will be interesting to observe."
Doubtful. It will impact software more than hardware. NGS is the kind of game that appeals to people who OWN the console already, not to people who don't. After all, if Gundam Musuo couldn't significantly impact hardware sales, NGS has no chance. I have been wrong in the past though.
"I also wonder if this game had never appeared on the Xbox whether some people would be claiming that this game couldn't be done on last gen machines or Wii with toned down graphics due to Physics, AI and the other usual suspects?"
Doubtful. It's gorgeous but last gen is stamped all over it.
sheppy @ Jun 14th 2007 10:30AM
"OMFG! Anybody who claims this kind of garbage instantly loses all credibility with me. How is this big-titted video game character different from the 100 or so others... fuuuuck you."
Ummmmmm... you forget. The leader of this dev team, Itagaki, personally drives his motorcycle through Aki during the day of any of his games launches. He also refuses to be pictured without his sunglasses.
Ego and Team Ninja may as well be one and the same.
jas @ Jun 14th 2007 10:53AM
Isn't this the same douche that is getting sued for sexual harrassment?
Jake @ Jun 14th 2007 10:48AM
Steve,
Your article is mostly Sony PR reps saying the PS3 is harder to make games for because it is so much more capable. Take it with a grain, or bag, of salt.
Here is the bottom line. The PS3 has about as good of an installed base as the 360 did at the same time in its life. At this time, Gears of War was being shown on the 360, running. Gears gameplay vids one year ago owned anything the PS3 has shown that is 100% gameplay.
Now, we will all probably agree that the PS3 is as powerful or more powerful. It may have a few bottlenecks, but I still think it is more capable than the 360 from a purely technical standpoint. So basically, devs with equivalent install base to justify spending, a more powerful system, and the same engine (Unreal 3) are incapable of making a game that touches the technical prowess of Gears of War, yet there are several 360 games coming this fall that will beat or equal Gears in graphics. Add to those facts that devs all over the world have been complaining about making games on PS3 and haven't really been complaining on 360.
Now how can someone like sheppy, a Sony rep, or any other fanboy come in here and try to argue that the PS3 is only a little harder to dev for. Or argue that there is just so much more you can do that it costs more. If the machine were in fact more capable and remotely the same to dev for, you would be able to make a game that looks as good as the best on 360. When the xbox came out, more powerful and reasonable to dev for, it was beating or at least equalling the best the year old PS2 had to offer.
Just look at the games, people. The PS3 obviously isn't that amazing at graphics. The most amazing looking games coming out this year are Mass Effect, Bioshock, and Unreal Tourney. At the second tier, you have Too Human, Halo3, Lair, Heavenly, and arguably a few more from each system, including some multiplatform titles.
Just pull your heads out of your arses and look at what is going on. The PS3 has been hyped and BS'd so much that people can't change their opinions even when being stared in the face by nothing but facts. Sad, really, that your love of a company transcends your ability to reason and use logic.
The PS3 is a fine system. But it IS hard to develop for and we don't yet know if it CAN produce games that top the slower, but with superior RAM and GPU and generally more balanced and easily harnessed, xbox 360. That is still in the air and the 360 is still ahead.
BiggerBoat @ Jun 14th 2007 11:01AM
@ sheppy
"I also wonder if this game had never appeared on the Xbox whether some people would be claiming that this game couldn't be done on last gen machines or Wii with toned down graphics due to Physics, AI and the other usual suspects?"
Doubtful. It's gorgeous but last gen is stamped all over it.
-------------------------------
You could say the same about SCIV but there were plenty of posters claiming it couldn't be done on Wii on yesterdays thread.
The1 @ Jun 14th 2007 11:02AM
I am still waiting on a game for the PS3 to dazzle me. I played the DEMO for NG and it looks good. However, its not the best looking game out there; so this guy needs to chill with his comments.
However, what else do you expect him to say when he has a game on the line.
BadVermin @ Jun 14th 2007 11:06AM
I can only assume if the PS3 isn't more difficult to program for, then the reason 99% of all the multiplatform games are better on 360 (even titles with the PS3 as lead) is because the hardware itself is more suited for game development.
Does the 360 have the best the tools or is it the hardware? Both?
mastafool @ Jun 14th 2007 11:12AM
IF Ps3 games nedd more time, effort and resources to make, perhaps PS3 games should be more expensive than $59.99. Would you really want to pay $$79.99 or $89.99 dollars for a PS3 game?
If not, then please do not complain about the quality of PS3 games. If it takes more time to create high quality games, then developers need to be compensated for their time.
sheppy @ Jun 14th 2007 11:16AM
"You could say the same about SCIV but there were plenty of posters claiming it couldn't be done on Wii on yesterdays thread."
I said making it on the wii as well as the other two consoles would be a major investment. Honestly, I'd like to know what the gameplay is like before I make definative judgements in either favor.
JonnyBoy2U @ Jun 14th 2007 11:23AM
This guy is a douche. I hope other devs follow his advice too and then we'll see just how many games come to the ps3. I mean talk about chasing away people who might be even remotely interested in creating games for the ps3.
That just adds to my belief that most sony supporters/fanboys are just arrogant sob's.
mccomber @ Jun 14th 2007 11:23AM
"The PS3 obviously isn't that amazing at graphics. The most amazing looking games coming out this year are Mass Effect, Bioshock, and Unreal Tourney"
OK, did I miss something, or has Unreal gone to the 360? Because I keep seeing 360 owners toss it out there as one of the big titles for the system, but last I was paying attention, it was multi platform. Or, is the "good looking" version coming out to the 360 and PC only?
ill trooper @ Jun 14th 2007 11:30AM
"Just look at the games, people. The PS3 obviously isn't that amazing at graphics. The most amazing looking games coming out this year are Mass Effect, Bioshock, and Unreal Tourney. At the second tier, you have Too Human, Halo3, Lair, Heavenly, and arguably a few more from each system, including some multiplatform titles. "
Jake, that's opinion and will be taken as so - none of those games are out, so your point is moot right now. The Gears of War videos we saw last year before the game's release were alarming eager fans because there were rumors of framerate issues... And that worked out well, didn't it? A great looking game, and fun too. I suspect the same for many of the titles you mentioned. The graphics on the PS3 Ninja Gaiden demo are amazing, and it's fun too.
My favorite point these days, as I just had another 360 error code scare the other night: with the 360 and PS3 are so similar on ported graphic tasks, why can the PS3 do it without the level of failure that the 360 has? With the power supply built in? With less fan and DVD drive noise? Now Microsoft quietly acknowledges the problems by putting a new heatsink in repaired units. I love my 360, but I do like the dependability my PS3 exhibits - I think there's more to come for the PS3 than your post speculates.
Matt B @ Jun 14th 2007 11:28AM
The1,
The Motorstorm demo looked worse than the actual game .
I don't think the demo is the final graphics.
sheppy @ Jun 14th 2007 11:31AM
mccomber,
UT 3 is still headed to PC, 360, and PS3.
Also, I could respond to Jake but it would take forever and the sites I would need to back up my arguement are blocked at work.
Evan @ Jun 14th 2007 11:35AM
@sheppy
As someone who has actually programmed on the 360, I can assure you that it is *relatively* easy. All game systems are difficult to develop for, but Microsoft has gone out of their way to try to minimize the difficulty in both the dev tools and the hardware design. I installed the dev tools and was running code on the dev kit within one day! The 360's CPU cores are symmetric, all have access to main memory, system calls can be made from any of them, and it's preemtively multitasking. Writing multi-threaded code for the 360 is very similar to writing multi-threaded code for the PC (which isn't exactly easy, but it's as easy as multi-threading can possibly be). My only frustrations with the 360 is optimization - the CPU is gimped, so while you can do everything in simple C++, you really need to use intrinsics or even assembly language to get the power out of the CPU. But at least you can easily get something running by throwing C++ at it, and worry about optimization later.
In comparison, the PS3's cores have limited capabilities. Unlike the 360, there's no preemptive multitasking on the PS3. For example, in R:FoM, two SPE cores are dedicated to calculating collisions. Most of the time, the number of potential collisions is small enough that one SPE core easily handles it, but during intense scenes two are needed. But the PS3 cannot dynamically allocate threads onto available cores, so two SPE cores are reserved all the time for collisions. Also, unlike the 360, the SPE cores cannot send events to each other, only the PPE core. For example, in R:FoM, when an SPE core detects a collision, it has to notify the PPE, and the PPE has to relay the information to another SPE that's reserved for physics. On the 360, you don't have the complexity and overhead of passing everything through the PPE, and you don't have to write it yourself, the 360's cores all handle events, mutexes, semiphores, etc., directly.
BiggerBoat @ Jun 14th 2007 11:37AM
@ sheppy:
"I said making it on the wii as well as the other two consoles would be a major investment. Honestly, I'd like to know what the gameplay is like before I make definative judgements in either favor."
Going slightly off topic here but SCIV on Wii would surely be a smaller investment than NGS on PS3 and would sell shed loads more, IMO anyway, which is why I'm puzzled with many dev's decisions to skip the Wii. It's like they don't want to make money.
jSn @ Jun 14th 2007 11:40AM
I just need to comment here - cuz some guy is posting under "jsn" and that's pretty much my posting name. What I have to say here is that no - you're wrong - if people complain and don't wanna work on a system because it's "more difficult" they should be kicked out. When movies started adding green screen and CGI - and the art direction departments said "this isn't what we do" you know what happened? They got fired - and replaced with people who could accomplish exactly that. So moral of the story - if you can't stand the heat - get out of the damn kitchen.
And don't sully up my name with your stupidity.
tom @ Jun 14th 2007 12:12PM
Just what Sony and the PS3 needed. More arrogance. It's served them so well so far.
Jason @ Jun 14th 2007 12:25PM
Well, I much prefer Evan's opinion on the differences rather than Sheppy's "I've got friends" hearsay.
Hey shep, I know you own all 3 consoles, but why do you consistently defend Sony's? Feel like you wasted your money a bit?
Noshino @ Jun 14th 2007 12:33PM
"42. Well, I much prefer Evan's opinion on the differences rather than Sheppy's "I've got friends" hearsay.
Hey shep, I know you own all 3 consoles, but why do you consistently defend Sony's? Feel like you wasted your money a bit?
Posted at 12:25PM on Jun 14th 2007 by Jason"
The PS3 is getting too much hatred, one that it doesn't deserve.
Jason, you got a ps3? If you don't, then why are bashing it? did it kill a relative? your pet? did it take your girlfriend away from you? mmm..hopefully it isn't because you can't afford one,....I guess no reason right? you do know that bashing something for no reason makes you look stupid right?
Ska Oreo @ Jun 14th 2007 12:48PM
Whether this guy is right or not, him and his devolpement team have no fucking right to tell other devs that, especially when they have been making the same exact game for 5 years. Hey Team Ninja, maybe when you make a couple of new games then you can speak your mind.
Ska Oreo @ Jun 14th 2007 12:48PM
I mean seriously.
okenny @ Jun 14th 2007 12:52PM
@Jake
I here your thoughts and I second them! However there is a strong river flowing through many of these comments: The Nile (denial).
I'm personally tired of hearing about the PS3's potential. Everything thas potential but so few ever realize it.
Let's all let the developers do their job and let the money trail resolve all of this. I'm done arguing with fan boys.
sheppy @ Jun 14th 2007 1:01PM
@Evan,
Well herein lies the problem. When I hear about things, I hear about how they are going wrong so often the steps you've talked about don't get discussed. It's interesting to hear the aspect of the beginning and I humbly submit a victory to you, brave code monkey. I tried coding long ago, couldn't cut it. So I'm more of the art side of things (most I've coded has been a few shaders and a couple VSTs). But I do have contacts that have gone the coding side of things so I often get to hear the bitches. And I hear about them on every console.
@Jason
I use heresay because I'm not a coder. Well, technically I code occassionally but it's shaders and such. Nothing overly involving. So my coder friends get to hear about me bitching about Maya's game engine viewer port and the problems represented in there before I rant about surface sampler and such. Meanwhile, they bitch about coding. So I merely comment as what a non-coder heres from coders.
And why defend PS3? Why defend any console, really. Why do they need defending? Possibly because I paid my money on all three consoles and haven't been disappointed on the whole. All I hear about on these boards are the generic responses and PS3 bashes, PSP bashes... and yes, even DS bashes. Tired of it, so I chime in.
Why do I feel the need to defend PS3? Because I went from being the only person among my gamer friends who "bought that useless turd" to having them, after playtime with the console, end up buying their own. So imagine, if you will, going from "haha, you're dumb" to "man, you got IN the warhawk beta? I'm envious."
Majority of the PS3 hate is misplaced and internet memes.
finalb00st @ Jun 14th 2007 1:14PM
This is a business. You do what you are payed to do. He has EVERY right to speak his mind. There is no emotion in business there is only success and that is through work and that brings profit, the end. Its very simple. If you cant do it, we fire you and get someone that can. Believe me, there are MANY willing to take their place. This is the reality of the industry, of any industry. Its highly competitive and you only survive by doing what you do.
Brad Lee @ Jun 14th 2007 1:49PM
"This is a business. You do what you are payed to do. He has EVERY right to speak his mind. There is no emotion in business there is only success and that is through work and that brings profit, the end. Its very simple. If you cant do it, we fire you and get someone that can. Believe me, there are MANY willing to take their place. This is the reality of the industry, of any industry. Its highly competitive and you only survive by doing what you do." by finalb00st
Wow, what an unbelievably bleak view of the world. Yes, humanity is nothing but slightly evolved animals who are doomed to the darwinian model of "survival of the fittest."
Call me an optimist, but I'd like to think there is a little more to life and a little more to humanity than "survival."
I'd also like to point out, that over half of the money in this world goes to corporate CEOs and other bigwigs like Bill Gates. These people are far beyond merely "surviving" and if they are going to fire people because they are not "fit" enough to "survive" in their company, they do it out of greed, not survival.
This type of world view only justifies the evil and corruption of the corporate world.
"Majority of the PS3 hate is misplaced and internet memes." by sheppy
I think the majority of hate comes from gamers' overall disappointment with how far PS3 has veered away from the PS2's success. As we all know, the PS2 was a success because of its boatloads of games and accessible pricepoint. Currently, the PS3 is neither of these.
All Sony would have had to do is make the PS3 with about the same power as the 360, only at $100, and MS would be fucked. Instead, they chose the BluRay, Cell Processor, and all the other extras most PS2 gamers could not give two shits about, and made the console unnecessarily expensive.
I think the PS3 hate is mostly caused by PS2 owners feeling betrayed. And considering all the ridiculous nonsense spouted by Sony PR and execs around launchtime, I don't blame them. Steak dinner my ass (yes I know that was the Metal Gear guy, but I just can't get over that analogy).
Brad Lee @ Jun 14th 2007 1:52PM
"All Sony would have had to do is make the PS3 with about the same power as the 360, only at $100, and MS would be fucked."
Insert word "less" after "$100."
Damn twitchy fingers.
So to reiterate, if the PS3 had come out at a $300 price point, it would have burried MS, in my opinion anyway. Not to mention that the Wii would not look so inexpensive with a "true" next-gen console tagging at only 50 bucks more.