Microsoft avoids 360 cooling rumors, calls hardware updates 'commonplace'
"Regularly updating console components is commonplace within the industry," was the official line from the spokesperson, who then promptly declined to comment on whether or not Microsoft had done it. There's no word on whether or not the spokesperson's comically exaggerated winking was audible during the interview. If there's actually a Lorenzo's Oil for 360 heat death, we assume Microsoft's worried about opening the floodgates to the millions that might want their problem prematurely fixed. After all, as Peter Moore already told us, the company's not so much interested in preventative care as resuscitation.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Ian Von Porter @ Jun 15th 2007 9:59AM
Of course they wont say anything.. they would be asking for a class action suit if they came out and said they were addressing "over-heating" issues.
BadVermin @ Jun 15th 2007 10:04AM
At least MS is improving the hardware, were as Sony made their hardware worse.
The PS2 had what, 12 revisions? The current PS2 version can't even play all PS2 titles, I don't know how they could let something like that happen.
The PS3 already had a revision that removed the backward compatibility chip and reduced the number of titles you can play, permanently. All with no cost reduction or added features.
kingofwale @ Jun 15th 2007 10:05AM
>"Regularly updating console components is commonplace within the industry,"
Then do it for EVERY xbox360. There is obviously a problem, Why are you still denying it, Microsoft?
Just cough up the money and make sure your loyal consumers don't get screwed by your shady products.
JRM @ Jun 15th 2007 10:11AM
Xbox 360 like the Ford (or GM) of consoles. There's always something flawed, or chronically broken, in its construction.
Karen @ Jun 15th 2007 10:16AM
I hope Microsoft properly tested this in a enviromental chamber this time. I'm not buying one till the hardware is finished being developed.
Jake @ Jun 15th 2007 10:17AM
RCW, but it is so fun.
While hardware updates are very commonplace, that is not the question here. The question is whether or not they are repairing broken 360's by modifying the system that you send in. If you just do it to new models, that is a standard hardware revision and happens in all consumer electronics. If you use it as a repair method, that is different.
Hopefully they get r' str8ened out, because this summer/fall the 360 has a sick game lineup and my guess is that sales will pick up. Add a price drop and the system could really take off. And your hardcores (ones who read game blogs and are not fanboys) need to have confidence that your product won't die on them just outside of warranty.
FrankTheCrank @ Jun 15th 2007 10:19AM
I really want to get a 360, but I don't want to buy a clunker that's going to die in 6 months. No way.
I'm waiting for the 65nm cpu and the price cut. Then I'm in. Until then, I'll stick with my PSWii.
jason w @ Jun 15th 2007 10:24AM
Wow they do something to make it better and you still are bitching. At least you are not blowing into a cartridge or have a disc read error a week after your bought the thing (2600, Nes). I know some have had issues and that really sucks but dont complain when people try to make things better.
Phranctoast @ Jun 15th 2007 10:31AM
I rather have a disc read error then have a bricked console.
kingofwale @ Jun 15th 2007 10:32AM
>At least you are not blowing into a cartridge or have a disc read error a week after your bought the thing
are you really not? I guess not according Euro Commissioner, eh?
http://kotaku.com/gaming/scratches/euro-commissioner-cracks-down-on-microsoft-265520.php
Ian @ Jun 15th 2007 10:33AM
I'm just curious how you guys on your 5th or 6th 360 are killing them? I haven't had a single problem with mine. One or two lock ups but that could very well be software. No red rings ever in over a year. I also have my 360 sitting by itself on a shelf with nothing around it to block airflow.
I'm not flaming, or making fun or anything, I'm just honestly curious as to your user environment that keeps killing 360s. I think a LOT of people exagerate 'oh i'm on my EIGHTH red-ringed 360!'. Now I'm not denying that it does happen, but 8? I don't believe that. No one I know (and I know close to 25 people with 360s personally) has had a red-ring. I just find it wierd that in 25 people, not one problem but other people say they go through nearly 10 of them.
Alex K. @ Jun 15th 2007 10:35AM
The way the Xbox is puts it at the middle of the road.
How many PS2 revisions were there? How about PS1? Tons more problems with the PS2 than there is with the Xbox
How many revisions did the gamecube have? Probably around 1-4. How many disc read errors, overheats, etc, are people getting with Wii and Gamecube? Basically none.
So Xbox has more hardware problems than Nintendo, and less than Sony. I don't see this as a big deal.
tituspullo @ Jun 15th 2007 10:36AM
he PS3 is an overpriced piece of junk.
polly @ Jun 15th 2007 10:49AM
Piece of junk?
Frankly the 360 is the best game console I have ever owned period.
/gamer since the atari 2600 & apple //e days
//laughed at MS when they put out the original XBOX
///will probably buy a PS3 down the road
Dan @ Jun 15th 2007 10:49AM
lol, my xbox 360 stays pretty cool, I never put it on carpet, and the air out back of it never feels hotter than 30 degrees.
And to all the people who think the xbox 360 is for people who like first person shooters. Have you never heard of a PC?
sheppy @ Jun 15th 2007 10:59AM
"I'm not flaming, or making fun or anything, I'm just honestly curious as to your user environment that keeps killing 360s. I think a LOT of people exagerate 'oh i'm on my EIGHTH red-ringed 360!'. Now I'm not denying that it does happen, but 8? I don't believe that. No one I know (and I know close to 25 people with 360s personally) has had a red-ring. I just find it wierd that in 25 people, not one problem but other people say they go through nearly 10 of them."
Personally, I'm on my fifth. And I think the main problem is, when MS replaces your console, it's not a new one but a refurb. Therein lies the difference. There's a reason why a Nintendo console has a 90 day warranty but a refurb has 30 days. So if you get stuck with one back console, odds are in favor of MS simply replacing a bad console with one that has been temporarily fixed.
"How many PS2 revisions were there? How about PS1? Tons more problems with the PS2 than there is with the Xbox"
Excuse me? Majority of the revisions were to kill modchips and regional changes as well as adding more functionality. The only "defect" killing revision was jumping from SCPH-10001 to SCPH-30001.
"How many revisions did the gamecube have? Probably around 1-4. How many disc read errors, overheats, etc, are people getting with Wii and Gamecube? Basically none."
You're right in one regard. The most common defect on Gamecube was the AC unit going out. But Disc Read Errors were common as well as the AC units trips wiping a memory card. But let's put it this way, how many Gamecubes were sold in the US versus PS2? Even if the percentages were the same, you still wouldn't hear about GC as much.
Also, Wii motherboards have already gone through 4 revisions to kill modchippers. And a large percentage of the initial Wii consoles had problems with their wireless internet connectors.
"So Xbox has more hardware problems than Nintendo, and less than Sony. I don't see this as a big deal."
Actually, I'd say Xbox has MORE problems than Sony. After all, I don't recall many "on my fifth PS2" stories within the first two years of PS2. Heard plenty of "my PS2 died already" rants but very rarely in multiples. But as I stated already, I think that has more to do with MS recirculating back consoles back into the market.
rdlind @ Jun 15th 2007 11:11AM
Ian... yeah I've tried that before they won't answer or they flame. Seriously, I and 2 friends have (within a month of) release boxes, every one of those is still running fine. I agree I've had a few lock ups but thats it. People who have failure after failure I always imagine that they have their 360s tucked into some tiny little closed cabinet with a blanket wrapped around it.
Is that true, probably not, but probably about as true as the claims that someone and their 3 friends have all had to have their 360s repaired 5 times.
There has to be some sort of user responsibility attached. Not saying the consoles should break, not saying everyone who has had one break is somehow at fault, just saying that if you have failure after failure you may want to look at other possible factors.
Tom @ Jun 15th 2007 11:21AM
I don't care what Microsoft does secretly behind the scenes as long as it means a better quality product. So my question is, does this update help? I've been putting off buying either next-gen system until they've gone through a few revisions. If this one fixes the overheating issues, I might just go out and buy one.
Andy S. @ Jun 15th 2007 11:26AM
>At least you are not blowing into a cartridge or have a disc read error a week after your bought the thing
No, you're right. Instead, I have the red ring of death a week after a bought the thing. Literally. One week after purchase *to the day*, my new 360 croaked. I'm sending it in for repair today.
By comparison, the Intellivision II that I bought 24 years ago is still running like a champ. No freezing up, no having to blow out the carts.
Funny how that works.
Dustin @ Jun 15th 2007 11:27AM
I am also in the no problems crowd. I got my first 360 at midnight on launch day, and it is still running right this very moment. However my cousins bricked, but it didnt happen until 3 months ago and he got his at launch also. I bought an elite and gave him my old workhorse until he can save for a new one.
My point is how can a "fundamental design flaw" be so sporadic? One person goes through "5" and anothers runs without any problems... it does seem like a conditions problem. What I mean is there probably is a problem with the design, but it only shows up in certain conditions. My other cousin's harddrive went dead, however he was always removing it and reconnecting it where as mine wasn't removed until I got the elite and did the transfer.
To sum up, I wish Microsoft would just release numbers on how many have broke to settle this once and for all.
SnapperDragon @ Jun 15th 2007 11:30AM
[q]4. Xbox 360 like the Ford (or GM) of consoles. There's always something flawed, or chronically broken, in its construction.
Posted at 10:11AM on Jun 15th 2007 by JRM[/q]
Ahh...I see you are a resident of the island of Moronica. How very nice for you.
Godmil @ Jun 15th 2007 11:35AM
I just hope the 65nm chip version can some out before GTA4 or I'm going to have serious doubts about when to jump into the next gen.
Josh @ Jun 15th 2007 11:36AM
This is really sad. You know, Microsoft has everything going for them right now. I would seriously consider buying an Xbox 360 (I currently only own a Wii), but I am very put off by their shoddy engineering. Maybe eventually MS will get their act together. I'm hoping for a complete redesign. I think the concave design is ugly anyway.
mccomber @ Jun 15th 2007 11:40AM
This problem is a big part of why I don't have a 360 in my house yet.
As others have said, I think the big problem is that once your xbox dies (which happens to a higher percentage of people than it should btw) you end up in this cycle of receiving "fixed" units, rather than new ones. In other words, what you get is a console that previously had problems, was fixed just enough to work again, and then shipped to you.
I'd be interesting in knowing just what MS does to fix the units sent in to them. I somehow doubt completely new innards is the answer.
And sorry, but any product that makes the extended warranty a GOOD investment? That's not a well built product. I refuse to pay extra for Microsoft's poor build quality.
sheppy @ Jun 15th 2007 11:43AM
"My point is how can a "fundamental design flaw" be so sporadic? One person goes through "5" and anothers runs without any problems... it does seem like a conditions problem. What I mean is there probably is a problem with the design, but it only shows up in certain conditions."
I've said it before, allow me to reiterate.
Cheapest you can BUY a 360 is $300. Repairs of dead 360s are $140. When you get a replacement console, it's very often a refurb. So what you've gotten is a console that broke in the past, under those "right conditions" being recirculated. In other words, chances are much better for the one you got from Microsoft to farq up. My consoles are treated like kings, yet I'm on my fifth 360. Consoles 2-5 have been refurbs sent by MS. I have no doubt that if my store warranty would allow me to exchange for a new unit instead of paying for the repairs from MS, I wouldn't be on my fifth.
bobsmith @ Jun 15th 2007 11:45AM
I am also in the no problems crowd. I have a launch day 360, and no issues whatsoever (except for 3 or 4 lockups in the last 18 months). I'm not even careful with airflow etc...I have it horizontal with stuff crammed all over it, and the HD-Dvd drive sitting on top.
Honestly, I have kind of been waiting for this one to die so I can justify getting an elite...
PeteL @ Jun 15th 2007 11:49AM
My 360 has always been on a shelf in an open area on all sides, with no other components near it. I just sent my 3rd dead console into MS yesterday morning. #1 was bought new, #2 was a refurb, #3 was bought new. #1 had a faulty disc drive. #2 and #3 got the red lights.
When I dropped off my console at the UPS Customer Center, the rep recognized the box right away. I asked him if they get a lot of 360s shipping back, He said "We are getting about 20 a day." 20 a day from one UPS center!?.
Vidikron @ Jun 15th 2007 11:50AM
@20
I think it's an issue where the flaw (the X clamp) puts the system in a position where it's prone to failure due to overheating. Some people keep their systems well ventilated and never run into the issue. Others have them in hot rooms, confined spaces, or otherwise block the some of the vents and that's when the flaw shows up. Sure, you don't want to block the vents on any system, but I think the 360 is so prone to the failure that it doesn't take as much heat build-up to cause the failure as it would with other systems.
Personally, my launch 360 is working perfectly. But it sits on a shelf, by itself, that is open on all 4 sides (i.e. not an enclosed entertainment center like many people use). If everyone had this set-up I think the failures would be far fewer.
In the end though, most of the blame has to be put on MS. The X clamp would be such an easy fix. Just us a different method to attach the heat sink... how hard is that? Why didn't they do that with the Elite since they were already redesigning other aspects of the system? If they would simply do away with the X clamps then all these reports of people having multiple systems fail would go away.
Even adding this extra heatsink isn't going to solve everything. It won't do any good if someone puts the system in an enclosed space and the heat can't get out efficiently. The system will still heat up and the board will warp and pull away from the heat sink. It may delay the problem or cause a few fewer failures, but they aren't going to go away with this solution.
Matt B @ Jun 15th 2007 11:51AM
I bet the 360 could have been anointed the undisputed king if not for the hardware problems. I may have bought one over the PS3 if not for these issues.
EnderOSC @ Jun 15th 2007 11:57AM
My 360 just died yesterday, and it too was a launch model manufactured in 10/28/05.
The question is: Do I send it in to get repaired/replaced for $140? Get an Elite (probably won't)? Or try to do the 'Wal-mart swap?'... decisions, decisions.
Jake @ Jun 15th 2007 12:06PM
I'm on my 3rd 360 (but my drunkenass was pretty much the reason the 1st one died. don't transport consoles drunk). I have 7 people I know very well that are all on their first 360. I know about 5 people pretty well and have talked 360's with them and never heard about a faulty system. My one buddy lives with 5 dudes and the 360 is on non-stop and they've never had a problem.
Ask Gamestop employees or Wal-mart employees and the breakdowns are not as common as you'd think. It is a relatively faulty console, historically, and seems ultra bad because of the internet (I doubt the failure rate is higher than PS2 or NES).
I mean, the thing has issues that shouldn't be there and it isn't in the 3% standard for consumer electronics. But the majority of people do not have any problems with their system. It sucks that it has reliability issues, because those are keeping a lot of people from enjoying the best game library on consoles, but it isn't like you are going to buy one and most likely go through 5 or 10 or whatever everyone claims on these internet boards.
And I honestly am skeptical whether or not some of these "7 console" people are either fanboys or are not giving their system an extra cool environment. Buy an 8" fan or a cooling add-on and you are set.
bobsmith @ Jun 15th 2007 12:06PM
@30
If it was me, I would just try to repair it myself. There are a bunch of guides floating around (e.g. http://rbjtech.bulldoghome.com/pages/rbjtech_bulldoghome_com/XClamp.htm)
Andrew @ Jun 15th 2007 12:17PM
@32
This is a better guide IMO:
http://forums.xbox-scene.com/index.php?showtopic=594487
The threads in the heatsink that the Xclamp attachments screw into have M5-.80 threads so you can just use M5-.80x10 machine screws and you avoid unecessary drilling and mangling of the GPU heatsink.
Senor @ Jun 15th 2007 12:18PM
My launch 360 died a month ago, and MS said they stopped repairing them for free in april. Bitches want me to pay $160 or whatever. The Wal-Mart swap sounds like the best option...my friend said to go to best buy, any suggestions?
Gombard @ Jun 15th 2007 12:24PM
Im in full agreeance with Sheppy. I am going to be very shortly on my 4th 360.
My 1st one lasted from Nov 05 to June 06 just past the 6 month cut off, so i called them up and they told me it was going to cost me $160.00. Well, i got them down to $80.00 which is still crazy for something that just died after a little past 6 months..
So they send me the 2nd one, it was DOA. Disc drive wouldnt open, it was damaged prior to arrival, so that had to go out.
In comes the third, which right out of the box was partially DOA also, but it wasnt all the time (disc read errors) so, by this time i was rather upset and called them up for another box to ship this awful one back, and tried to get a supervisor to guarantee me, that i would not get a refurbished one, as i didnt want someone else's problems. They couldnt, but they sent a box anyways. But i thought i could suffer through disc read errors, so i said screw it, i'll keep it.
Well, the past few days, its been giving me a flash or two of the death rings, and finally just yesterday it is completely dead. So now i have to call them up for a new postage stamp (got the box in the mail, but never used it).
I would seriously join the ranks of a class action lawsuit since it seems the "fixed" machines are merely crutched together with broken parts. I want a new machine, not a refurb.
Sorry for the long post, but im trying to convey the situation that has lead me to have soon-to-be 4 xbox 360's.. Hopefully this doesnt happen to you.
Digi Smalls @ Jun 15th 2007 12:40PM
i'm also going strong with my 2005 unit (heavy use), as are some of my friends.
but i do have other friends who have suffered from this. ultimately, having my PS3 run for weeks folding@home without a hiccup, and my 360 playing games for hours at at a time seamlessly over Live reveals which company is the hardware company and which is the software company.
.
DWells55 @ Jun 15th 2007 12:41PM
Gombard, I'm currently on Xbox 360 number 6. Believe me, you aren't the only one who has suffered through multiple consoles. I choose to keep the faceplate before I send the system in as a little souvenir - the new unit always comes back with a faceplate on it. I have a friend currently on his third unit. As much as I love the 360 and it's games and Live, I'm thoroughly disappointed with every aspect of MS support.
Worth noting is that the Xbox 360 repair center is on the very bottom of Texas (look it up on Google maps). You can throw a rock from there and it'll land in Mexico. I have a feeling that Microsoft is using illegal labor which might be partially responsible for the high failure rate of "repaired" consoles.
Also, this new cooling system is fine and dandy, but the real issue lies with the x-clamp and the board flexing. This has been left unaddressed.
Digi Smalls @ Jun 15th 2007 12:56PM
that said, i'd definitely support a class action lawsuit if half the reports we're hearing are actually coming from x-clamp victims and not Sony PR victims.
.
FrankTheCrank @ Jun 15th 2007 1:04PM
This is brutal. Reading your stories make me want to stay far away from that mess. I never had any issues with any consoles I ever had and I've been buying consoles all the way back the 2600 days. Wow. That's horrible.
And there is no guarantee that the next version, ala 65nm processor, is going to be more reliable. You would hope so.
Aex @ Jun 15th 2007 1:10PM
I just sent in my Xbox 360 this morning :( It suffered from constant lock ups. Couldn't do anything for longer than 5 minutes before it froze on me. I couldn't play XBLA games, Demo Games, Watch Demo Videos, Play Purchased games, or even Watch a DVD. Occassionally, I'd get a good boot and it'd work, but after an hour of constant lockups and following the troubleshooting guide on their site, I gave them a call.
I don't know many people with Xbox 360s, just 3 others, each of them have had a RRoD, one of my buddies is on his 3rd console. A few people on my XBL listing have had failures as well, not all of them mind you.
I hope mine comes back pristine, with a nice new heatsink on it, and it is able to last for the rest of the generation... but I doubt it. Sorta makes me wanna trade it in for a PS3... Same games for the most part... less crashing/bricking.
Mike @ Jun 15th 2007 1:43PM
It's simple folks.. when you buy your 360 buy it from a store that has a ESP (extended warranty) that can guarantee you that they will SWAP out the unit for a new one at store level. You keep your hard-drive and they crack open a new box and give you that unit.
Fry's does this.
vanwagnen @ Jun 15th 2007 2:12PM
MS should have a recall on these machines. There are simply way too many 360s frying. What is going on here is that MS scrimped on the quality of their box to keep the price down, and instead you get a total piece of crap.
You get what you pay for. This is true with PSN vs. Live , and true of PS3 vs. 360
MassiveVoid @ Jun 15th 2007 3:55PM
My 10/05 built 360 had the three red lights a few hours ago. I busted it open, cleaned their shoddy thermal paste job, brasso the heatsinks, and applied Arctic Silver 5. It all works now.
In the end, the problem was the CPU/fan and how it wasn't pulling out the hot air. After the fix, it is now hotter.
I believe the launch systems were rushed.
ill trooper @ Jun 15th 2007 8:50PM
"I don't believe that. No one I know (and I know close to 25 people with 360s personally) has had a red-ring. I just find it wierd that in 25 people, not one problem but other people say they go through nearly 10 of them.
Posted at 10:33AM on Jun 15th 2007 by Ian"
I think you're lying.
Ben E @ Jun 15th 2007 10:25PM
Are folks getting their own 360's back with the new heat sink or a new/refurb one with the new hardware?
EnderOSC @ Jun 15th 2007 10:44PM
I followed the repair mods that you guys shared with me and voila. It boots back up, and works fine.
Only downside is now that I have done it the case fans are extremely loud. Looks like I might try to find a mod to quiet it down some.
Darth Weder @ Jun 16th 2007 1:46AM
Actually digi smalls, microsoft works seems to have chosen the better hardware for the system compared to PS3. It has almost the same CPU power and a better graphics card, depending on who you talk to. And it costs what? $400 dollars less to make a 360 than a ps3. not sale price but how much sony and microsoft pay to manufacture. At least from a business standpoint Microsoft seems to have made a good choice to stick with a normal cpu rather than make a whole new type of cpu that the two largest cu makers, Intel and AMD, are avoiding and dont look to make until sometime after 2015.
rfom @ Jun 16th 2007 2:39AM
"$400 dollars less to make a 360 than a ps3. "
I know this is off-topic but I am a bit puzzled - WHY would the PS3 cost so much more? The extra cost is say USD90 for Blu-ray, USD40-50 wi-fi and HDMI, USD10 bigger hard disc, USD 30-40 cell, another USD50 for a better heat sink and build that ensures it doesnt brick up like the 360.
It all adds up to less than USD200 - and this is based on cost estimates I read at year-end 2006.
PLUS costs will drop faster for PS3 - 65nm will save much more for the complicated cell processor, the BR price will drop like a rock while the 360's crappy DVD drive wont! One would expect the difference to be barely above USD100 by end-2007.
Burnt Meatloaf @ Jun 16th 2007 4:39AM
*AlexK: "How many disc read errors, overheats, etc, are people getting with Wii and Gamecube? Basically none."
Actually, asside from disc read errors, the Wii is having overheat problems, too -- to the point where the console is bricked. The performance of the hardware is irrelevant if the cooling solution is just not up to the job. The funny thing is, the system is most likely to die when turned off.
The Wii also had a number of lock-up issues when shown at E3. Everybody laughed at the PS3 because Sony reps pointed a fan at the system to cool it off. Nintendo just shut off their systems -- and their mouths. Who got the bad publicity? Yeah, that's right.
Microsoft gets more blame for the issue because they have the "ring" and error codes to let people know what part of the system is having problems. It's easier to point fingers. If a Wii dies, well, there's no point in guessing, is there? Don't focus on failure, focus on repair! More often than not, unfortunately, keeping people in the dark is a good PR move. As a software developer, I see it happen all the time when it comes to tech support.
Burnt Meatloaf @ Jun 16th 2007 4:55AM
*rfom: "PLUS costs will drop faster for PS3 - 65nm will save much more for the complicated cell processor, the BR price will drop like a rock while the 360's crappy DVD drive wont! One would expect the difference to be barely above USD100 by end-2007."
Sony is already making 65nm Cell chips. Microsoft is using multiple DVD drive suppliers, and blue lasers aren't going to drop THAT quickly in price. The PS3 architecture uses much more power than the 360 by design, so even with smaller, cooler parts, the PS3 power supply is a major cost anchor. The PS3 also has more "stuff" in it -- more shielding, more connections, a more complex motherboard, etc. Aside from the overheating issues, the 360 is actually a very good, cost-effective design.
I just really wish the power supply for the 360 were internal. Hopefully, the 65nm model will have something that doesn't look like a Ghostbusters trap.