Church of England thanks Sony for apology, it's not enough

Nice to see Sony's PR do something right for once! Could they be on their way to recovery?

Demands? A substantial donation? Sounds like a shakedown to me. Who's in charge of this church anyway, the Reverend Al Sharpton?

JR

@23

What about Oblivion? They made an "entire game work" but couldn't get downloadable content working.

Are you telling me that Bethesda doesn't want more money?

Or maybe it really is a case of two much work for too little pay-off. Not everybody who buys the game will buy the DLC, and when you're potential audience for one console is already between 1/3rd and 1/2 the other...

Makes perfect sense to me :)

Oops...directed that towards the wrong post. I meant 42, I think. Nevermind, ze point was made :)

Dammit. That was for the GTA post. Sorry! Damn tabbed browsing...

@spartacus

If the crusaders had Atomic bombs, gas chambers, machine guns and slave camps - do you really think they wouldn't have used that sh*t? Hell, given current events, the modern day crusaders just might still.

The idea that religious leaders are somehow incapable of mass atrocity is simply laughable. But maybe that's not what you were implying when you said atheists shouldn't point fingers.

You write: "Does scripture support the Crusades or the Inquisition? Absolutely not. So the problem is obviously not with what Christianity teaches, but with how humanity twists it for personal gain. Blame humanity NOT God."

Setting aside your first question, and the gross assumption that follows...

You are right.

It is a pity how these religious leaders are using their antiquated, contradictory, paternalistic texts to justify their own scrupulous, opportunistic and entirely predictable demands.

I'm still unclear on how you feel about the topic at hand. But I will say this: that cathedral is a historic location, well known around the world. Maybe even moreso now that this game has been out for 7 months. :P I think using it in a piece of fiction like this game is 100% OK and it is the church which should apologize to the developer for manufacturing this flap and questioning their right to free expression. Should they have had to ask permission? No. Companies like Rockstar clearly make a calculated judgement when they call NYC "Liberty City". It's because #1 it's a decision they make not to offend the people who would buy their games and #2 an artistic choice. But in the case of this cathedral, I don't think there's any real public outcry against the game and the dev got it right by using a real cathedral as a setting. This is just another example of the church trying to make another superficial connection with its followers, and it's a power play to show they still have influence. They say Sony should donate. What they mean is YOU should donate.

If the public lets the CoE and Jack Thompsons of the world slide, then it unwittingly empowers them to carry on with business as usual, pretending people agree. One more fantasy they can manufacture into real world nightmare. Personally, I welcome a future where the church, it's screwed up policies, it's texts, it's leaders, and it's more excitable, preachy followers stay out of my business 100%...peace.

Now, back to fun and games. Sorry for the rant.

I really hope they don't remove it from store shelves. Its one of the games I want to get when I finally get a PS3 D=

This actually makes me want to play RFoM, and I'm one of those PS3 player haters!

"No greater atrocities have been committed in the history of the world than by the christian church and in the name of their god."

Incorrect. As I've posted on an earlier thread on this topic, all the religious wars over the last 2000 years combined don't hold a candle to the number of human life extinguished by atheism. Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Hitler and Pol-Pot name just of few. Godless Darwinism also motivated ideologies such as Marxism and fascism which has caused a slew of deaths. It is actually atheists who are in no position to point fingers. 

Every time anti-religious (namely anti-Christian) zealots try to make a case against God or Christianity they point to the same old things; the Crusades and the Inquisition. Both of which were far more influenced by politics than religion, but no one cares to blame politics for millions of deaths every year, even though that is the case. No, religion is by far the favorite scapegoat of all hypocrites worldwide. Never mind the fact they've never cracked open a Bible to actually see what it teaches. Does scripture support the Crusades or the Inquisition? Absolutely not. So the problem is obviously not with what Christianity teaches, but with how humanity twists it for personal gain. Blame humanity NOT God.

Dan:

Yes, the Bible DOES teach against homosexuality. It also teaches that man is fallible, fickle and prone to hypocrisy, which is why we need to constantly check ourselves against scripture. Your derogative remarks only show how true scripture is despite your intention. 

Really, this is the THIRD time the exact same comments have flooded joystiq. Do they really need repeated? If you feel the need to flame Christianity due to the legal proceedings of one organization, please go read the two other threads posted here on this site before you type the same old misguided opinions.  


AMEN, nice to see someone who isnt a moron! See thanks Joystiq, you do this on purpose to start a comment religiion war! Idiots...

let's not forget that the reason pope urban II called for the crusades was originally to drive back the bloodthristy muslim hordes that were attacking inoocent pilgrims on the way to jerusalem. Alexius Commenus, the byzantine emperor asked help of christian knights because the muslims were disallowing the free practice of other religions. When the Christians ruled jerusalem and the rest of the holy land, muslim and jewish practitioners were allowed to observer freely their religion. Tehre were several crusades during which the ownership of the holy land changed hands many times. The Original intent of the crusades was noble, but second and thrid sons often found this as a way to carve out lands for themselves. maybe you should all pick up a history book once in a while instead of a gamepad.

@ Spartacus

2 problems spartacus, one you violated godwin's law, second the nazi's were actually deeply christian, alternately if you say he wasn't trying to be a good christian then I would make the same arguement about the Militaristic communist dictatorships being blamed on athiesm and not the actual driving factor there, a brutal classist system, violent dictators can happen in any religous background.

You could then get even more into it by saying religion caused a lot more conflict than the crusades. It all depends how you slice the pie. A huge portion of the hate crime violence at least in the united states is religiously motivated as well but may not be directly cause by the church. Thats the same way stalin killed a lot of people but it was his mind not athiesm that made him do it. You make the same mistake you accuse others of doing of when people make accusations against christianity based on actions of twisted misguided people. They are the same twisetd misguided people regardless of what banner they hide their values behind, be it islam, christianity, communism, or patriotism.

If you really want to blame athiesm for this incident, that is your freedom to do so, but many people stated, but please don't use a logical arguement when defending your own position then fail to use sound logic when attack the other position.

And let me also say, I want to listen to you Spartacus, and I want to see you respecting other people's ideas in the same way you seem to demand people respect your views.

Couldn't a mandatory patch fix the problem? (not that i think it should be fixed, i'm against the Anglicans on this one)

but i don't see why it wouldn't be impossible to just dummy that part of the program out of the actual game

@Luigi193

Please, please, please PLEASE do some fucking research.

Pol-Pot did NOT just target christians but people who had ties to the previous government, homosexuals, buddhists, ethnic vietmanese, ethnic chams, and this is the important one, professionals and intellectuals. Pol-Pot's vision was a government renouncing technology and science in favor of the hard earned self respect and pride a farming society would apparently bring about. Notice he targeted the intellectuals as well... which is often where one would find atheism.

Lenin, well let's just say in all Russia's history, there had never been a man more dedicated to the stamping out of anti-semitism. And if you LOOK at what Lenin did and who he targetted, it was a fairly vicious form of Robinhoodism (new word, it's mine). His stance was not of a religious one but rather why his fellow countrymen had to starve when people within his society were becoming rich. A byproduct of a fearful Tsar and his desire to have powerful men in his corner as tempers were rising against him. And in case you missed it, the idea of the rich should help out the poor isn't exactly an atheist exclusive edict. Fucks sake, Lenin favored the jews!

Stalin was also heavily tied to... you guessed it, the church. In fact, one of his movements was to persecute certain churches in favor of others.... definately Atheistic behavior there.

As for Hitler... well, let's just put it this way...

"In contrast to other Nazi leaders, Hitler did not adhere to esoteric ideas, occultism, or Nazi mysticism, and even ridiculed such beliefs in private and possibly in public.[20] Drawing on Higher Criticism and some branches of theologically liberal Protestantism, Hitler advocated what he termed Positive Christianity, purged of everything that he found objectionable. Hitler never directed his attacks on Jesus himself,[21] but viewed traditional Christianity as a corruption of the original ideas of Jesus, whom Hitler regarded as an Aryan opponent of the Jews.[22] In Mein Kampf Hitler writes that Jesus "made no secret of his attitude toward the Jewish people, and when necessary he even took the whip to drive from the temple of the Lord this adversary of all humanity, who then as always saw in religion nothing but an instrument for his business existence. In return, Christ was nailed to the cross." Hitler rejected the idea of Jesus' redemptive suffering, stating in 1927:

My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter"

"50. Nice to see Sony's PR do something right for once! Could they be on their way to recovery?"

recovery lol, because they said im sorry hardly not a scrath in there bad rep

also the church of england is a disgrace to be doing this just to make headlines

@Spartacus

I'm thinking about picking up Hitchens book and when I saw that quote it reminded me of these threads. Figured I'd throw it on here to poke a little fun. =)

@Mr Khan

I'm sure they could get a team at insomniac to change it and I'd rather them do that then pay the Church. But after Blair came out on the side of the Church publicly I'm guessing they are gonna get their demands met. Which to me is atrocious.

@sheppy

Nice. I knew something didn't sound right about calling some of those guys atheistic murderers. Also your comment was directed at Spartacus, Luigi193 just copied his entire post so he could write "AMEN" at the bottom...hehe

This is just Karma spanking Sony to ground for shutting down Lik-Sang. See Sony....even God is pissed at you for shutting it down.

But seriously, i can see why the CoE is pissed off, its their building and all. Yet it is set with laser guns and aliens and a parallel universe. It'd be like Kenya getting pissed off at Halo for using Mombassa or Any city for being annoyed at featuring in PGR3. Its just sillyness.

@cc123

The game could be modified. Insomniac could release a patch which removes certain geometry and changes the textures and bammo, no more church. The layout of the building is generic enough to be a field hospital. But all this is besides the point. The demands are the game is removed AND the church is paid.

@fleisch

Seriously... FUCKING READ!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lik-sang

Do you know WHY Play Asia, Yes Asia, and a myriad of other import gaming websites avoided the lawsuit? Because, when Sony asked for the items to be pulled from exporting sales for an indeterminant amount of time, they listened. Did you know there is currently legal threats from Nintendo of Europe to various UK import shops against importing the US release of Pokemon Diamond and Pearl?

When a company with a history of losing lawsuits and even fostering piracy is defended by supposedly gamers, it's a sad day indeed. Personally, between shitty service, never honoring warranties, and scalping for launch consoles, I'm fucking glad they are dead.

I can't believe Sony is besmirching the good name of the Church of England...

Haha! Ok, I can't keep a straight face when saying that.

if they cared about the gun violence i don't see why they add with an donation to the requirements

if they really cared about it they would just ask that a patch remove the church form the game and that all future reprints have it removed aswell


the fact that they want the game removed form store shelves and a donations show the church got money in there eyes and wish to push any company that endorses violence off the mark

Aha right.... their just going to give a ps3 to the priest and everybody is going to be happy :P

Every thread about this gets spammed with the same shit. If a Joystiq employee could copy the comments here over to the next CoE vs Sony post, you'd save some people loads of time.

Haha it's funny when church leaders try to stay relevant with stupid bullshit - when it's the stupid bullshit that has led to their collapse. Dear Church of England: you're a relic from a dying age, just die already.

Why would Sony need to get permission for filming fake gun battles in a church (like the Quatermass movie people did presumably, just for an example?) when they didn't have a film crew or thespian entourage of any kind trampling in a real world location? They created a virtual church, not exact by any stretch of the imagination, peopled it with aliens (not a child-molesting vicar/ priest in sight) and let gamers shoot pretend critters with not even a hint of a religious subtext to the action other than the pixel-formed setting itself.

Added to which it isn't even based in our own earth, but an alternative reallity.

Anyway, kudos to the church for successfully plugging Sony's brilliant game, while simultaneously making themselves look like out-of-touch overly-precious antiquated prigs.

It's nice to see the church turning the other cheek, as it were.

R:

My "official" stance on this debacle is that I have no stance. Why? Because I don't presume to know the true motives or circumstances behind the issue. As a Christian, I am neither for, not against the CoE. I am not their judge. If they are doing this for headlines or money, then I would disagree with them, if they are doing this because they feel their rights have been violated, then as a free citizen, I would support them. Ultimately it's not for me to decide, so my opinion matters zero, as does yours.

---
Ducky:

You are correct, horrible atrocities can happen under any religious (or non-religious) banner. Again, the point is the problem is with people, not with the said religion (in this thread it seems Christianity is the particular religion taking heat). My point was not to blame any other religion for deaths in order to paint Christianity a rosier color, but to point out that religion itself (usually) is not to blame. However, Hitler was not Christian, and neither were the Nazis. Hitler is most often classified as a "neopagan" and though he spoke of the church, he most definitely did not follow biblical teachings. He was influenced by Niche and Darwinism, neither of which are even remotely classified as Christian.

I never "demanded" respect in my posts, I am simply defending a widespread religious belief that numerous people here on joystiq apparently dislike and make fallacious claims about. I have never spoken harshly about Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism or Shammanism. I don't hop on the hate bandwagon every time the word "church" or "religion" is mentioned on joystiq or any other blog or publication. As a Christian the Bible instructs me to love, not to judge. If you look at the last three joystiq articles dealing with this story, you'll find a pattern in the comment sections. A group of commenters come in and bash Christianity and a few people who respect it come in and try to reason with them. I do not claim to have all the answers, but the viciousness of these comments toward a religion which promotes peace, love and acceptance in its Holy Book seems a bit ignorant and immature. So I'm not quite sure what wrong I (or the other Christians here) have committed...

---
Sheppy:

You seem to be without question the most opinionated commenter on joystiq, regardless of the subject matter. Sometimes you seem to know what you're talking about, other times it seems you just like to hear the sound of your own voice. Your argument is that none of the aforementioned leaders were atheists. That is a debatable stance, so I won't debate. Let's say you're right and none of the world's politically charged genocides was due to this mentality. What point is there to be made? My point was that religion is usually not the problem, people are. To use an old cliche; "Religions don't kill people, people kill people." As I've mentioned before, politics are usually to blame, but religion is a far more abused scapegoat and I think this practice needs to stop.

Furthermore your information on Hitler (taken from Wiki I assume) only further proves that Hitler was not Christian. The very word "Christian" means "little Christ", a nickname they picked up for being followers and believers in Jesus. Hitler rejected Christ and was very anti-semitic, which is NOT biblical. For those who would challenge that point, I would remind you that Jesus was a JEW as were all of his disciples. When He left and the church began, He instructed the apostles to go to the Jews first and preach the gospel. Only after they had rejected the message did God send the apostles to the gentiles. However throughout scripture the Jewish people are said to be a chosen people and that the God would bless the world through them. How people twist this into "the Jews are responsible for Jesus' crucifixion!" is beyond me, especially when the New Testament shows us that we ALL put Christ on that cross and that He died for ALL mankind. Sorry if this is not related to your post, there were too many on the same topic to keep track...

---

To All:

I apologize for coming across too strongly, an internet blog site is not the best scenario to have a civil debate and I know that all too well. I need to learn to refrain and just let everyone say their piece about how Christianity sucks, is stupid, is a lie, is for the weak minded, how God is a fairytale etc. etc. etc. and just realize that those people will be full of hatred and bitterness whether I try to defend a religious viewpoint or not. So go ahead and flame, get it out of your system, for tomorrow is a new day and there may not be a post on joystiq about the CoE for you to spew your bias and hate in the comments section. Your time is now.

I don't hate you or your religion.
Also, I live in a democracy, my opinion does matter and it can change things.

Godless Darwinism FTL. ugh. 'night.

Sony can't afford not to have Resistance on the shelves in Europe or anywhere. They don't exactly have a large library of must-have games you can't get on other systems.

Oh, hey, we don't need video games to link the church to violence. If the Bible itself isn't enough, with some particularly nasty examples in the Old Testament as well as it's logo: a man suspended from a wooden cross with nails driven through his hands and feet, we can always talk about Inquisitions, Crusades and even tenuously-linked violence such as wars in which the generals and politicians cite God.

This is not about offence. This is about seeing an opportunity to make some money.

"Sony can't afford not to have Resistance on the shelves in Europe or anywhere. They don't exactly have a large library of must-have games you can't get on other systems."

Exactly. And I'm sure the CoE knows this by now.

I'm also willing to bet the Church will find forgiveness in it's heart if the donation goes north of a million bucks.

Oh this is really rich- the Church of England has something to say about a scifi game. You idiots are going to sue Sony right!?! Why not sue the family of Darwin or maybe all of the authors of Scifi- that have written stories about God-

This is a disgusting representation of what is going on in religion today. Political nonsense.

Sure - flaunt the copyright law when it suits you. You bunch of hypocrites.

How dare anyone question the Church of England.

This is completely RIDICULOUS. The Church of England wants to discuss its "outstanding demands"? Go to their site and see what it means to be a Christian and tell me what it says. Does it not say to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ? Does it say become corrupt and take money from companies that are already stuggling? No. But thats what they're doing. If you ask me they're just as bad a the Catholics and their indulgences. Religion is so corrupted. The basis of Christianity is to save people and tell them that they can be forgiven and lead a better life. Its a shame that all these churches have lost that... But hey. What are they going to say when judgement day comes and will that money help them get into heaven... Yeah..

NO TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION.

Well lets see...I figure I've visited the Church of England the 9 times I've played RESISTANCE, didn't ONCE fill the 45 gallon drum of a collection plate and the decor hasn't changed one iota. So what's the problem? Instead of trying to shlock bucks out of Sony, why doncha do it the old fashioned way and get some of them old tea grannies off their arses and hold a huge bake sale? [porta potties extra] C'mon, lighten up, kids! lol!

Meh, Sony should just tell the church to go piss up a rope. The bible-thumpers don't have a leg to stand on in this, and are just looking for cold, hard cash.

All those settlements over the years made to victims of their child-raping priests have drained the coffers a bit.

@42

Lenin was distrusting of the benefits of organized religion on a communistic society. He described it much as Marx did as a drug for the people used to make them feel better about themselves. http://sfr-21.org/lenin-religion.html the most interesting bit in there is that Lenin specifically sought out those who were religious to become part of his Revolutionary Party and supported the state making no laws either for or against religion. His own atheism was NOT a cause of the atrocities he committed unlike the argument you are fighting against which states that religion has has caused the greatest atrocities in history.

You have Stalin correct for the most part. He actively used his atheism as a tool for atrocity. Stalin did see the importance of religion to the people and during WWII allowed a resurgence of Orthodox Christian churches.

Hitler was a Roman Catholic who had various distastes for the ways of the church, but still was a believer in God. http://ffrf.org/fttoday/back/hitler.html "he was a Catholic until his death"

If you mean Mao Tse-tung, a vast majority of deaths during his rule were due to improper planning and the overall ineffectiveness of communism...not maliciousness. Most died of starvation. If you mean Mao Zedong, then yes that's correct. He used atheism as a tool for atrocity, but again...a great deal of the deaths attributed to Zedong were from starvation.

You are correct about Pol-Pot. However, I'd like to make an observation. Of the leaders you mentioned, all but Hitler were communists and even then Hitler was a socialist and a catholic. Perhaps it occurred to you that Communism was the driving force behind the atrocities...not atheism? Basically you're comparing politics to religion. It was not atheism that caused communist atrocities, but rather politics much as you stated about the crusades.

All atrocities are terrible. The difference in my eyes is that religious atrocities are hypocritical. Religion holds the people to high standards of morality and justice...yet look at Ireland, the middle east in general, etc. Killing in the name of a God who says not to kill. Honor killing, stoning a woman to death for what is percieved as inappropriate behavior, is a product of religion. A sick and twisted deviation from morality that is generally accepted by the culture produced by that religion. There is atrocity everywhere, but only religion claims to hold moral superiority while simultaneously committing atrocities.

The church extorting money?!?!
thats never happens! /sarcasm

Churches have been run like businesses since the beginning of time, it's nice to see them shed their "holier than thou" shroud and just go for the jugular. as long as organized religion continues to require money to operate, ridiculous shit like this will continue.

I guess in a world or intellectual property and usage rights, even the church of england isn't looking to share the forgiveness they so continually teach.

If i only had a nickel for every time the christian church was a hypocrite i would have never had to have worked a day of my life.

@Spartacus

Dude, seriously. Do you know what you sound like at this point? "Anyone who doesn't subscribe to MY form of christianity isn't a christian."

Let's just put it this way. You use Hitler and mention neopaganism. The fallacy in this? It was an ideal that he only subscribed to during his youth. Eventually he began to hate such a stance, even going so far as to state "a people cannot move forward while relying on the ideals from a time of stone axes and arrowheads." He became overly critical of the neopagan movement and if not for several of his generals, including Himler, dabbling in those ideals, likely he would have targetted that too. But people remember the neopaganism steeped in Nazi society and rather than associating it with Himler, the strongest supporter of that movement within Nazi ranks, it's always attached to Hitler. Hitler did not endorse it beyond his higher learning years, he merely tolerated it. Privately and publicly, he denounced such beliefs. But everyone watches those specials on Discovery channel and everyone knows misinformation or distortion of facts to increase viewers isn't common at all.

Spartacus, you may not have agreed with Hitler's version of christianity. In fact, I applaud if you don't. But the fact remains, it was a version of christianity. Just as the KKK and Kingdom Identity Ministries are both christian organizations. And please, don't hand me this "but it's not TRUE christianity" nonsense. It waves the god flag, thus it's christian. Just because it's a sect you don't agree with doesn't make it any less of a sect.

But what is the point? Actually, believe it or not, I'm on your side. Religious motivations behind horrible incidents are rarely truly religious. And people of all faiths, and lacks thereof, are equally capable of horrendous deeds. Frankly, I'm getting just as tired of the militant atheist in these threads just as much as you are, but spreading misinformation is not the way to defeat them. And in all honesty, who's to say they are wrong and you are right? Even you must admit that, within Christianity's hugely diverse group of organizations, there are some conflicting ideals. I mean, Christianities first foothold in the US was plagued with witchhunts and trials and burning people alive to "save them." Just as militant atheist movements in recent years include the very debatable VT shooting. I say debatable because it's widely considered he wasn't atheist, but rather anti-god.

sheppy,

I do not advocate that "my" version of Christianity is the "only" version whatsoever. I advocate that the teachings of Jesus is the only version of Christianity- since, well, He started it. The Bible is the ultimate authority on Christianity, not I. Just because the KKK or Hitler claimed Christianity does not make it so. Look at their lifestyle, then compare it to what Jesus instructed and the apostles reiterated. If they line up, then they were true followers of Christ, if not, then they are simply using religion as a means to further their own personal agenda.

The KKK has absolutely no biblical support for their agenda. White supremacy from scripture? Come on, whites weren't even mentioned in 3/4 of its text and where they were, they were Greek/Roman gentiles who were treated with no more respect than other ethnic groups. Jesus was a Jew. The Old Testament is about the Jewish people. The last book of the Bible, Revelation, speaks of the remnant of Israel, so if ANY ethnic group could be put on a pedestal by the KKK, it would be the Jews, not Caucasians. But again, when taken in context, even this mentality would be against biblical teachings (all men are created equal, Jesus died for ALL mankind, etc.).

Hitler? If you knew nothing of Hitler and went to Wiki for a summary of his life, you'd realize that he is not easily labeled. The man was so confused I don't know if HE even knew what religion he was. But let's say he claimed Christianity, just for the sake of argument. I could claim to be Donald Duck, but if I don't look like a duck, act like a duck and smell like a duck, I'm not a duck. Find me a passage in scripture, particularly from the New Testament (as the new covenant replaced the old) that advocates antisemitism, genocide, an Aryan race (or any superior race), world domination or any other shenanigans that Hitler pulled. Actions speak louder than words, and Hitler's actions were not those of Jesus, so therefore he was not acting as a Christian, but as a man who reasoned "might equals right". Now, did Hilter ever accept Jesus as his personal Lord and Savior and in the end did Hitler repent of all his atrocities? I don't know, that's between him and God. If he did, I will see him in heaven, simple as that. But his presence there would be a testimony to God's grace and forgiveness, not to the moral life that Hitler led.

I just think it’s pretty god damn weak to hop on the hate- Christianity-train because of barbaric policy in a less civilized time in history!

@ Negativecool

seems to me just recently ( less than 10 years ago) the christian church was covering up child molestors here in boston... and now just recently denying their fellow men and women the right to marry. (What happaned to do unto others?) so it's not just the crusades, they just happen to be a biggie people are picking out. Anyways, a "good christian" would turn the other cheek and ignore this rubish. Same with the whole chocolate jesus thing around easter time last year. IT's just a way to get into the spotlight and try to make themselves look like the victim(s).