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Reader Comments (83)

Posted: Jun 21st 2007 4:56PM (Unverified) said

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I think Lenneth from Valkyrie Profile. She the best of all females character in video game history.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=atHlW23O7P0

http://youtube.com/watch?v=w7WJvv12F94


Posted: Jun 21st 2007 5:09PM waywardwit said

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Ummmm - speaking of RPG's with strong females - did you neglect to notice that the main character in the next FF is a strong female lead? FF 13 - just a thought.

Posted: Jun 21st 2007 5:09PM Brenty said

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A recent [url="http://www.gamefaqs.com/poll/index.html?poll=2780"]GameFAQS poll[/url] shows that female gamers make up about 6% of the gaming population. Of course, because the poll is on GameFAQS, it's not be completely representative of the gaming industry as a whole, but it does represent the HARDCORE gaming population fairly accurately.

Most girls just DON'T enjoy video games. Don't ask me why. If I were to give it my best guess, however, it's because most girls relate gaming to nerds. And being a nerd is BAD.

Of course, we all know that not all gamers are nerds. I'M a nerd. But that doesn't mean that gaming makes you a geek.

If more girls were to get into gaming, you would see a significant decrease in Large Breasts and females being characterized as playing second fiddle to guys. But right now, as long as 9 out of every 10 gamers are guys, don't expect must change.

Games featuring Loose-Cannon independant female protagonists with small breasts that fend for themselves in a male-dominated world just aren't very appealing to guys. Especially when we could be playing a game with big, bulky guys carrying machine guns equipped with chainsaw bayonets. ;)

Posted: Jun 21st 2007 5:14PM Paviel said

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"Games featuring Loose-Cannon independant female protagonists with small breasts that fend for themselves in a male-dominated world just aren't very appealing to guys."

To whom does the Metroid series appeal?

Small breasts: Check.
Fends for herself: Check.
Male-dominated world... Hmm, come to think of it, there aren't that many men in the Metroid series either... Can't give that one a check...

Posted: Jun 21st 2007 5:16PM Bluebreaker said

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A good strong female heroine that I admire is Aya Brea from Parasite Eve. A NYPD cop with special powers? I'm surprised more people haven't talked about her!!

Posted: Jun 21st 2007 5:21PM Altairio said

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Raiden from Metal Gear. I'd totally do her.

Posted: Jun 21st 2007 5:39PM (Unverified) said

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Resident Evil, Parasite Eve, Dino Crisis, many if not all Final Fantasy games (event tactic), Front Mission, Ring of Red, Disgaea, MGS (sniper wolf), Tenchu, etc, etc, all have strong female characters. Sounds like you're playing the wrong games...

Posted: Jun 21st 2007 6:00PM Shagittarius said

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Thought you guys might be interested in TwichGuru's (never heard of it before) 50 greatest Female Characters in Videogames of all time article.

http://www.twitchguru.com/2007/02/20/the_50_greatest_female_characters_in_the_history_of_video_games/

Posted: Jun 21st 2007 8:13PM (Unverified) said

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"Even nowadays, it's darn hard to come across a decent role model for girl gamers in the games they love."
Umm ... since when were there any solid role models in video games for guys? For that matter, since when were VG characters ever considered role models for anyone at all? Isn't the point of most video games to escape reality, not emulate it?

Posted: Jun 23rd 2007 12:15PM (Unverified) said

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That whole bit about the Valkyrie's losing their honor and station to wed caught my eye in Odin Sphere as well.

On the subject as a whole, it's come a ways from before and it'll still take a while, but in small and subtle ways, it'll get better. It just takes time and patience. *sigh*

Posted: Jun 21st 2007 10:06PM bm111 said

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Women are whining bitches.

Posted: Jun 21st 2007 10:11PM (Unverified) said

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For me, video games are an escape. Its a chance to be someone I could never be in real life, whether it's somebody with an armada of spaceships or some dude with a giant sword that's also on fire. I think once video games become more mainstream, and they are, we'll see more women playing casual games. Many of these women will then discover the joys of hardcore gaming. The thing is, I think most women want somebody to relate to. Where as I don't really care. Still, a game starring an average joe (like myself) wouldn't be unwelcome. It's just men and women play games for different reasons, from what I can gather. Tell me if I'm wrong. And from that, I think its perfectly reasonable for a woman to want more games starring other women who are similar to them. Otherwise, I, as a male, don't really care. As long as it has an engaging story, nice gameplay, or cool things to do, the main character doesn't matter.

For a few moments, that main character is me. He could be 10 feet tall with gigantic muscles, or a furry creature, or even a women in a crazy-cool space suit. It doesn't matter to most guys.

But for women, the character can make or break the game. And there is nothing unreasonable about that.

And again, I could be wrong.

Posted: Jun 21st 2007 10:17PM Auguris said

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Are you kidding me? Velvet is wearing a loincloth and has bouncy boobs. When Mercedes gets hit and falls, we can see her underwear. Gwen spends her entire storyline angsting because of the men in her life. And calling this game feminine because it has emotional depth and bright colors? Whose side are you on?

Posted: Jun 21st 2007 10:37PM (Unverified) said

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I think that this article is well done. And I'm a guy. I've been playing Odin's Sphere and its now one of my favs. Cause of the story and the characters.
Samus is a awsome female character and all but doesn't have as much story and personality as Odin's Sphere's characters do.
Though valkyries in most games and stories are strong and full of pride. But not all do anything for some words of graditude from their fathers.

Posted: Jun 21st 2007 11:13PM (Unverified) said

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I don't look to video games for female role models (although I could name a couple who could be so), but yes, this is a topic that definitely deserves attention from a female character and male character perspective. Food for thought never hurts.

It does get very annoying to see women always being portrayed in ways the author has mentioned (skimpy clothing, super thin, large breasts, needy, etc.), but honesty, where someone who is attracted to women might objectify a character to a degree, if I (who is not attracted to women) can see something more in the character, I couldn't care less what they are wearing or what their body type is. This is especially true when it comes to RPGs or other games where characterization is important to enjoying the game. There are real women who have these "unrealistic" body types and they are no less deserving of respect, so why not these fictional characters?

Granted, I would love to see more variety in female game characters in terms of mixing body types, races, and personalities. And for every female character I can think of that is interesting and multi-dimensional, I can think of ones that are mere objects or plain old dull. Similar to male video game characters (although to what extent these situations are the same is debatable)!

I am growing weary of playing "rescue the female" every other game. And crazy breast-bouncing physics, while ridiculous and hilarious to a point, also make me uncomfortable. I don't think these points are that hard to understand. But I do think the industry has come a long way with positive female characters and I look forward to seeing what lies ahead.

Posted: Jun 21st 2007 11:12PM (Unverified) said

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Hey everybody who's bitching about women bitching about this, shut up.

Look at it this way: one day you'll grow up and you won't fantasize about being a ripped space marine or whatever anymore, and you might even make it to level 50 or 60 or 70 in the game of Life. You'll still like video games. Then you might want to play a game starring somebody over the age of 25 once in a while, (other than Grampa Snake of course).

I'm sick of all games starring 20-something males. How about a game where you're a BABY. That could be awesome. A baby that shoots LAZERS. Awesome. I want more diversity in gaming. I want more babies that shoot lazers, more elderly characters that aren't random wise old wizard dudes, more female characters that aren't sex objects or damsels in distress, more black characters that aren't horrible stereotypes, more GAY characters that aren't defined entirely by their sexuality. Where is a game that has a gay character that isn't the comic relief? Where the hell is a game that stars a 40-something trying to save his family? Why must I always avenge my father? Why can't I avenge my kids? There are so many plots we're missing out on 'cuz we can only be 20-somethings saving our needy princesses or our planets or the universe. BORING.

Posted: Jun 22nd 2007 12:26AM (Unverified) said

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Well, I loved your article.
This confirms it. I'm definitely buying Odin Sphere now.

What is with all these angry comments? Some of you guys are insane. Why would anyone be dogmatically against anyone celebrating a progressively minded game. It's not you're missing out on a choice stereotypical mainstream trash.

Posted: Jun 22nd 2007 12:39AM (Unverified) said

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@the women representing their side of the argument:

So are you saying that womanizing, foul-mouthed, womanizing buffoons such as Kratos, Duke Nukem, CJ (of GTAIII), and the chain-smoking Solid Snake are positive depictions of men? I suppose there are always handsome, heroic characters such as Leon Kennedy from RE4, though most of you would probably argue that since he's saving the president's daughter that game is just as bad. Let's remember, however, that for every Leon Kennedy there tends to be an Ada Wong. For every Prince there tends to be a Fara.

You act as if the game industry is discriminating against women because there aren't games created in which you can play as Oprah. In fact, however, the game industry caters to women's need for positive characters they can relate too way more than for men. Know why? Because men don't take it personally.

In the most respectful way possible, PLEASE get over yourselves.

Posted: Jun 22nd 2007 1:27AM (Unverified) said

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It's kinda funny that girls apparently saw Gwen as some kind of strong yet fem character (regarding her personality traits) whereas I saw her as the typical Japanese RPG emoflakes retard hero. If Oswald and Gwen switched places and had otherwise the same dialogue, everyone would recognize this new Oswald as Cloud ver. 5.0

Posted: Jun 22nd 2007 2:10AM (Unverified) said

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One of the problems with the reverse sexism argument that some of the people here are proposing is that this position totally ignores the history of power dynamics that are existent between the sexes. Sure, the nerdy guy stereotype isn't flattering, however men still overwhelmingly hold the positions of political, economic, and social power in the world. The status and men and the status of women in society are already unequal and the relative degrees of inequality are so far apart. To cry, "Oh I'm a victim, too!" essentially minimises this disparity, which is wrong. People need to look at this in the context of wider society.

Posted: Jun 22nd 2007 2:50AM (Unverified) said

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@Brinstar:

Yeah, or we could not take into account factors that barely exist anymore.

Posted: Jun 22nd 2007 7:14AM (Unverified) said

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Half-Life 2 has a strong female lead. Also, I find that video games stereotype everything, including both women and men. It's no big deal. That's why you only find attractive people in the leading roles of movies. It sells.

Posted: Jun 22nd 2007 7:37AM howmuchIcarrot said

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@ 28 "only in Japan, a country where women are very much still property."

lol
really? Is that how it is in 2007 Japan?

@ 55 "A recent GameFAQS pollshows that female gamers make up about 6% of the gaming population. Of course, because the poll is on GameFAQS, it's not be completely representative of the gaming industry as a whole, but it does represent the HARDCORE gaming population fairly accurately."

Please. GameFAQs is a notorious stronghold for teen gamer boys. This poll doesn't accurately represent *anything*.

Posted: Jun 23rd 2007 6:37PM MagusDF said

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For all the people shouting out at programmers and an overly dominant male aspect. "Programmers" typically do the physical work of developing the game. Character design, story progression, personification of characters is done by a completely different side of the industry. There is significantly less of a gender gap there.
That said the bigger argument lies in the depiction and the development of the character and the world around them vs the overall image. Most games are seriously lacking there. The easiest and laziest way to get people to identify with a character is stereotyping. Token black guy, dumb blonde, emo white 20ish male... What have you, you dont need to agree with the stereotype but you already have a connection to the character, they seem more real.
Samus is a bad example, yes it is a strong female lead, but there is no reference to it anywhere. The story doesn’t flow around it, its more of a side fact to distinguish the shooter form others (just think of what it would be like if it was just another space marine).
Say what you will about the game, but Carla from indigo prophecy is a well developed and defined female lead character.

Posted: Jun 22nd 2007 11:12AM Shagittarius said

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What we need is a game for fat chicks. Nintendo should liscense Ugly Betty and release a collection of mini games for the Wii. Just like Ugly Betty you can take a very attractive woman make her wear padding to look fat and put a pair of glasses on her. After all apparently even if your just fake ugly, thats enough for the fat chicks to dig.

Posted: Jun 22nd 2007 12:01PM (Unverified) said

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Did the writer even play Gwendolen's chapter to the end, much less the entire game?

First off, all characters have to rest after attacks. It's not a case of "I'm such a girl! I get tiiiiireeeed!"

Second off, well... Odin Sphere sucked the butt, but that's sort of besides the point.

Third, and probably most important, is that by the end of Gwendolen's chapter she realizes she has been put under a spell to love her arranged marriage husband and decides to accept it and become a good wife because, after all, that's what women do.

HOLY CRAP. THEY'RE REALLY SHATTERING THE GENDER STEREOTYPES WITH THIS ONE.

I'm sure if this game contained an American Graffiti-type ending it would show Gwendolen baking bread and making babies while shoeless like a good little wifey.

What's more, another female main character, Velvet, is shown to be totally cowed by the ghost of her grandfather with some serious sexual implications going on there. Instead of being played as some seriously messed up psychological stuff, it's just another example of those whacky Japanese showin' women what their place is. And Velvet never really gets over being totally (and possibly sexually) subservient to her grandfather.

YOU REALLY KNOCKED THAT OUT OF THE PARK TOO, GUYS. WAY TO CHALLENGE THE GENDER NORMS.

Posted: Jun 22nd 2007 12:30PM (Unverified) said

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Wow, there's some hostility on this board, but a lot of people are making good comments. This is a subject worth debating.

Personally, I think that the game industy would greatly benefit from more diversity, in every way - gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity. Of course, just about every medium could benefit from an expanded palette of humanity. I think of shows like "Firefly" where having a multi-ethnic, multi-gender and multi-generation cast made the show stronger. The Sandman comic series was all the better for including realistic female protagonists in what was (and still is) considered a "male" medium. Being able to open your game to the wide array of humanity can only make things better.

Some people bring up the stereotyping that occurs with other groups in video games, and they are valid points. But those points being true doesn't make any of the other points less true. The games being brought up to say that there is "no issue" are great examples but finding a handful of examples isn't enough to refute that overall there isn't room for expansion. Games could be more inclusive on many levels. Hopefully designers will be willing to take risks with their characters and create fun, interesting games to play those characters in. Broadened perspectives never hurt anyone.

Posted: Jun 22nd 2007 1:43PM (Unverified) said

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Jade - Beyond Good & Evil
Cate Archer - No One Lives Forever
Samus Aran - Metroid Series
Jaheira - Baldurs Gate series
Ayame - Tenchu series
Kerrigan - Starcraft
Jill Valentine - Resident Evil Series
Virginia - Wilds ARMs 3
Celielia - WIld ARMs

You see where I am going with this. Women do not have it all that bad in video games. Yet the only ones that seem to have a voice are the blatantly obvious ones that have strong women in nothing but a chain mail thong. There are race groups that have it worse, so lets not give voice to just one give voice to them all, but ALWAYS remember this. The story, visual, and characters are just someones imaginary story made into a video game, so don't take it to heart. Like my mom always said, its all make believe, they have a wife to go home to anyway.
There is a female lead in Persona 2 forgot the name though.

Posted: Jun 22nd 2007 4:16PM (Unverified) said

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"An overwhelming majority of female characters in mainstream games are… super sexualized…"

"Since 1986, she's been there
"People should know to whom i'm referring"



Yeah, too bad every Metroid game ends with pinups of a half-naked Samus Aran. She is not a strong female lead.

Posted: Jun 22nd 2007 9:05PM (Unverified) said

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Ya wanna know why games are usually more aimed towards guys? Count how many males posted comments in this thread versus how many females posted comments. Simple as that.

This, of course, has nothing to do with the way that this site is aimed primarily towards males, and because of this has a community that is extremely hostile towards women (easily witnessed in the kinds of comments in this thread).

No, it must be because women don't play games.

Using that logic, I can use my feminist-oriented gaming site as a study and say that men are the minority of gamers.

But, you know, let's use biased sources like GameFaqs and anecdotal evidence from commenters on a male-dominated site to measure women's participation in games, rather than looking at the results of studies that have come out such as the 2006 Active Gamer Benchmark (http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=109&STORY=/www/story/10-05-2006/0004446115&EDATE) and ESA's Game Player Data (http://www.theesa.com/facts/gamer_data.php).

And, furthermore, why in the world do you think it's a solid business model to alienate 50% of your potential audience, whether or not they are currently playing your games? I thought game companies were in the business of making money, and it's quite clear that the kinds of issues that Bonnie takes on (and she is hardly the only one noticing these things) are a good chunk of not only what keeps women away from games, but also what keeps the videogame industry from being taken seriously by the non-gaming population.

Posted: Jun 22nd 2007 9:07PM (Unverified) said

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Ah, oops. I didn't realize how many tags that this comment form strips. The first paragraph of my above comment is quoting a comment that I saw upthread. Although for some reason now I can't find it. o.o

Posted: Jun 24th 2007 10:39AM daisame said

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Well men in video games are always rough and tumble male sex symbols (in the west) or freakishly feminine (in the east). If we wanted to play a game with characters based on real every day people and real every day roles, we would simply live life. One of the points of a video game is its fantastic nature. It is the same with movies, etc. We crave the hot women who need to be saved or a striking and handsome charasmatic hero.

Ultimately games are fantasy not reality. We play them to be entertained. I don't want the lead male role model to be a balding overweight nerd. I am already that. =)

Posted: Jun 24th 2007 7:03PM Mr Khan said

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Yes; but the whole concept of whether or not seeing Samus without her suit at the end of the Metroid Games is sexist is simply based upon the fact that she's a woman

One of the key desires for those fans of the Halo storyline for Halo 3 is to see Master Chief's face, and i'm assuming that that's out of interest in the character itself, and not out of the possibility that he might be a good looking man

The reward of seeing Samus is based (or should be) upon the desire to see the face of the character with whom you've been playing across the story. Which is why i'm slightly bothered by Zero Suit Samus in Brawl. It might be the beginning of her "sexualization" (well, aside from the fan Doujin/Hentai...)

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