Take Two's Zelnick: Manhunt 2 is 'fine piece of art'
Following the lead of developer Rockstar, Manhunt 2 publisher Take Two has come out in support of the game in light of restrictions on its sale in England, America, Ireland and likely bans in Australia and Germany. Take Two Chairman Strauss Zelnick said in a statement that the game's content "fits squarely within the horror genre" and "is in line with other mainstream entertainment choices for adult consumers."A fine enough defense, but Zelnick went even farther in support of the game, saying it "brings a unique, formerly unheard of cinematic quality to interactive entertainment, and is also a fine piece of art."
We haven't played the latest Manhunt game so we can't really judge it on its artistic merits just yet. That being said, the whole idea of games as art is a pretty thorny subject as it is. Throw it in with the "do game cause violence?" debate currently raging around Manhunt 2 and you've got a perfect storm of controversy liable to melt message board servers the world over.
Which is, of course, what Take Two probably wants right now. Remember that 2 Live Crew's "As Nasty as They Wanna Be" went on to sell over two million copies due in part to the controversy over its racy lyrics. If Manhunt 2 is eventually released for sale, in any form, you can bet all the controversy surrounding it will only make it more desirable to its potential audience.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
ChuckSteak0331 @ Jun 21st 2007 5:31PM
Well at least its out there, anyone else?
baxterpunch @ Jun 21st 2007 5:35PM
Is there any particular reason you chose to use the same Picasso piece that Kotaku used for this same story much earlier today?
grub @ Jun 21st 2007 5:36PM
I hope they release it unlicensed. Hell they could sell it online only and I wouldn't be surprised if it broke records....
steve Johnson @ Jun 21st 2007 5:41PM
Manhunt 2 is to "art" what Micro$oft is to "quality".
Tony @ Jun 21st 2007 5:44PM
Being more desirable is kind of meaningless if no retailer or rental service will carry the damn thing.
Tony @ Jun 21st 2007 5:44PM
And what in the world does this post have to with Microsoft at all? All of these Joystiq sites seem to have seen an increase in spamming idiots recently.
kinshadow @ Jun 21st 2007 5:45PM
@1: The PS3 blows and the Wii swallows.
Are we done yet?
Gamble20 @ Jun 21st 2007 5:49PM
I have always loved how the 360 fanboys hated PS3.
and thought that with their "GEARS OF WAR" and what not that they would become the best system.
now the Wii is number one, and they hate PS3 and Wii.
they really should be hating PS2 as well because they still can't outsell that. But I guess thats why they keep it as just SONY, that way it includes everything.
You MS boys are a disgrace to the industry. Your system is not the best. Actually they are all the same IMO
Kritz @ Jun 21st 2007 5:59PM
@12
You do realise Kinshadow was joking? I mean, honestly. Who gives a FUCK about what console you enjoy playing?
Better yet, who in their egoistic, arrogant and utterly moronic mind thinks anyone gives a shit they don't like a console?
We have three different systems on the market. Get over it.
Ontopic:
I'd like to see how a painting of a person raping a dead body would go down as "art".
spikepoint @ Jun 21st 2007 6:00PM
As much as I personally do think of Manhunt as a title for adults, that's much more a matter of my own tastes and measure of what I feel is appropriate for my family to enjoy. That having been said, I've seen nothing worse in the promo materials released so far than was present in several 'M' rated titles such as GTA:SA, Godfather and Scarface. Not even to mention the first Manhunt, which I seem to recall as being much more disturbing given context as opposed to what I've seen here so far.
In regards to the 'games as art' controversy, I've never really understood how this is even a question. While some games may have less artistic merit than others (comparing say... 'Ico' to 'Madden 07') they're both still made by people as expressions of ideas just as surely as any book or film ever was.
...even if the idea being expressed is something like 'this is what a fun game of football can be like.'
ZenGaijin @ Jun 21st 2007 6:04PM
Enough already!
I actually played the first manhunt and after the first 20 mintues it takes to get over the whole snuff film aspect you are left with a really bad stealth game.
This game doesn't even deserve this kinda attention, its violent but its not even a good game. People will buy it sight unseen mostly and thats sad because I know that when its released its solid 7 score everywhere won't even be glanced at.
Manhunt hunt is the poormans Tenchu Z.
And compairing anything to Tenchu Z is just low.
spikepoint @ Jun 21st 2007 6:04PM
@13:
Frankly, I assume it'd go over without incident. Not only because the media is generally without concern in regards to such thing (thus there'd be noone making mountains out of molehills,) but so long as the theoretical painting wasn't glorifying the wonders of necrophilia, I assume it'd spark some kind of thoughtful discussion in whatever gallery it was being presented in.
Neil Christie @ Jun 21st 2007 6:05PM
Not again Joystiq. Weblogs, Inc. needs to send ALL of its bloggers on some sort of geography course.
"England" is not an entity which should be considered here - the BBFC refused to classify the game and their decisions affect the UNITED KINGDOM.
The United Kingdom includes England, Scotland, Nothern Ireland and Wales.
Justin U @ Jun 21st 2007 6:05PM
Oi.
Flame wars about consoles in a news post about Manhunt 2.
We have sunk to a new low.
Congratulations!
Gavin @ Jun 21st 2007 6:05PM
Anyone actually play the first one? I did, and it got boring as hell halfway through. If this game is anything like the last one, it isn't really special. Once you got over the novelty of brutal deaths in the first one, it really got super old. I've tried to play it all the way through on several occasions but I never get more that halfway. I bought it when first came out and it was one of those games that finally convinced me to stop buying games when they are first released. It is a sucker's game.
Squall @ Jun 21st 2007 6:12PM
Just wanted to add that it has been banned in Italy as well.
http://www.corriere.it/Primo_Piano/Scienze_e_Tecnologie/2007/06_Giugno/21/manhunt_videogioco_vietato_italia.shtml
Jerk Face @ Jun 21st 2007 6:15PM
@18
That's what I was just fucking thinking.. Christ..
Aren't we done with flame wars now that all three of the fucking consoles are out? Holy shit, who cares at this point? Can't we just talk about how sweet video games are or something? God damn...
Justin U @ Jun 21st 2007 6:18PM
@21: NO kidding, thanks for seeing me eye to eye on this point.
I remember in the n64 and Playstation 1 days, we didn't argue about which system was better, as the point was moot. We argued about which games entertained us more, and frankly... I'd rather have those days back than our current ones.
ymous @ Jun 21st 2007 6:24PM
when are we going to have the choice to buy and play what we want. Manhunt doesn't interest me in the least bit but I still think that we need to have choice. Ratings are fine but if parents are doing their jobs and stores are doing their jobs and these games aren't getting into the hands of children then what is the big deal.
I'm an adult and I want to play and watch and listen to what I want. As long as kids aren't able to readily see or experience it let the games come out on your system nintendo and sony.
synce @ Jun 21st 2007 6:25PM
It's always easy to spot the kids who visit sites like this. They're always arguing about games. See, people who argue over which console is better are still living with their parents and have nothing better to do. If they were old enough to get a job and earn some money of their own, they'd get all consoles and realize that each one has its strengths and good games. In time, children, you will realize what it means to be a real gamer.
cc123 @ Jun 21st 2007 6:34PM
"If they were old enough to get a job and earn some money of their own, they'd get all consoles and realize that each one has its strengths and good games. In time, children, you will realize what it means to be a real gamer."
Are you insinuating that people that have jobs and only own a Wii are dumb and poor?
warioswoods @ Jun 21st 2007 7:12PM
I don't see how anyone can miss the fact that at least Nintendo has very good reasons to not allow this game to be released - the Wii has already been in the news for months now, from morning shows to segments featuring newscasters try their hands at it. Imagine how the press would jump on this game and how the Wii has a negative, violent-gaming potential. A family, everyone-can-play buzz turns into the usual violent video games buzz. I hope Nintendo says no - they don't need this game, and they don't need to try to be 'badass' like the other consoles and make fools of themselves. Manhunt is a pretty poor game, its sequel looks worse, and there's nothing but reasons against Nintendo having it associated with their currently successful brand.
L @ Jun 21st 2007 7:30PM
I don't see the problem. If it's ok for movie franchises like "Saw" and "Hostel" to exist and be put in theatres for the "mainstream" to see, then why is Manhunt a problem. The game's not my flavor, but I think the politics here are ridiculous and hypocritical.
Grindstone @ Jun 21st 2007 7:45PM
Art is a matter of opinion being that it is so subjective to begin with. I suppose it depends what part of Manhunt 2 he is referring to that is "art." Is it the panoramic beauty of the graphical environment, or the ability to use the Wiimote to motion strangle your target? In my opinion of art, the latter does not apply.
spikepoint @ Jun 21st 2007 7:48PM
@23:
While I agree with the concept of what you're saying, it is worth mentioning that the MPAA and the ESRB are two different organizations, and what the MPAA thinks is acceptable for a film might be different in comparison to what the ESRB feels is acceptable for a game.
kingofwale @ Jun 21st 2007 8:01PM
of course it's a piece of art. Some people might consider beating up their wives or sexually abusing their kids the same thing.
Yes, those people are creeps. but it doesn't mean they aren't allowed to have an opinion, regardless how wrong they might be.
;)
Rubang B @ Jun 21st 2007 8:20PM
Guernica is one of the world's most beautiful paintings, and it's a painting of one of the most violent horrible evil events in all history. So just by using that picture, both Kotaku and Joystiq are saying "Yeah, grotesque gratuitous violence can be art. Here's the proof." Manhunt 2 won't be as beautiful as Guernica of course, but it IS art. Just being art doesn't make it good. There is bad art too people! But yes, Manhunt 2 IS art.
zwarrior @ Jun 21st 2007 10:33PM
It is art.
warioswoods @ Jun 21st 2007 10:57PM
Absolute nonsense. It's almost unbelievable that a game that like Manhunt that seeks nothing more than to entertain a target audience, and does so only by attempting to one-up the rest of the field in extremity and violence, is being heralded by some as a possible artistic accomplishment.
Don't get me wrong, *sometimes* using very violent imagery that challenges the accepted limits can be used to artistic ends . . . but it takes tremendous blindness to see Manhunt 2 as 'challenging' our moral limits in order to make some further statement or open us to some valuable experience.
Reminds me a bit, to be blunt, of the fanatics that run around praising something like Sin City, just for being violent and (over)using a bland visual filtering throughout. Apparently that's all it takes now to be dubbed 'stylized.'
Call me arrogant if you wish.
Francois @ Jun 21st 2007 11:24PM
The "games as art" argument always turns around the same principle; video games are considered art when they have cinematic value. The argument is actually "games as film"; cinema is art and video games are trying to be cinema. No thanks. Actual cinema is just a DVD or a theater away.
I'm much more interested in video games that define themselves as games rather than as "cinematic experiences". And dare I say, as a video game, maybe Madden has much more artistic value than we give it credit for, be it just for the way it translates the familiar game of football into a single-player electronic simulation. If video games must be considered art, it should be on their own terms rather than on the criteria of film; we should hold Tetris as our flagship rather than, say, Metal Gear Solid.
Francois @ Jun 21st 2007 11:26PM
The "games as art" argument always turns around the same principle;
video games are considered art when they have cinematic value. The
argument is actually "games as film"; cinema is art and video games
are trying to be cinema. No thanks. Actual cinema is just a DVD or a
theater away.
I'm much more interested in video games that define
themselves as games rather than as "cinematic experiences". And dare
I say, as a video game, maybe Madden has much more artistic value
than we give it credit for, be it just for the way it translates the
familiar game of football into a single-player electronic simulation.
If video games must be considered art, it should be on their own terms
rather than on the criteria of film; we should hold Tetris as our
flagship rather than, say, Metal Gear Solid.
Rubang B @ Jun 22nd 2007 2:21AM
Holy shit Francois! That was my favoritest comment ever. At first I was afraid of your "Madden is art" angle, but then you turned it into a beautiful "consider games as art on their own terms" argument that made my head spin. Everything makes sense now.
Rubang B declares Francois to be the new King of Joystiq, and Tetris is the official mascot of our new Kingdom.
Dud @ Jun 22nd 2007 10:04AM
Games are art simply because artists are the ones who create them. Artists, who, often come from, get this: Art schools!
Jonathan Tran @ Jun 22nd 2007 11:43AM
Games can be art. Here are some that are art:
Homeworld 1 & 2: majestic landscape, amazing tone and atmosphere, excellent writing, emotional use of sound and music
Comix Zone: Literally comic art, as well as a parody on comic books, video games, and art itself
The Curse of Monkey Island: Amazingly drawn and animated, well composed music and composition, brilliant script and good character development
Mario 64: An amazing realization of previous iterations brought into a new medium with clever nods to the franchise past
The Marriage: Designed to BE art, is more of a statement of needs and communication than a game
Fallout 1,2,Tactics: A marvelous rendition of not just characters but a complete and immersive world, with excellent art direction and strong use of both contemporary and nuclear age thematic material.
and now, NOT art:
Manhunt
Madden
Diddy Kong anything
syco @ Jun 22nd 2007 7:47PM
if Ico isn't art, I don't know WTF is.