Apt timing for Nintendo's pre-E3 downers

"Hookshot Rocket Launcher. That's what Link uses to vanguish the giant metal crabs guarding the titanium temple."

Great idea! Let's also make Zelda a hooker this time, too.
And you should be able to hit her when you rescue her.
"WHY YOU KEEP GETTIN' CAUGHT, BITCH?!"

This is a really bad place to start a discussion on what art as gameplay is though since were already name calling. Perhaps if we back off a bit we could help define what the art of gameplay is.

Strangely, I'm finding myself more and more on Shags (may I call you Shag?) side of the debate, though I think he is using a poor choice of words.

Regardless of the definition of art, I think most of us will agree that we prefer games that try to be art (regardless of whether they are or not). I think we all appreciate games that try to make us think and feel, and that's what art is about.

I believe Shags point is that Nintendo isn't even trying to be artistic (regardless of what art is). I don't think he's trying to say that he knows more about art than anyone else, but rather that trying to create art is the first step of creating art.

...

And Metal Gear Link we'll so have a motorcycle.

Until someone comes up with a definitive explanation for what they mean by "artistic", trying to decide which game is more "artistic", GTA or Zelda, is impossible. OK I'm just repeating myself now, I give up.

"Once we do that then lets see if we can't see how I could possibly think that GTA has more artistic gameplay than zelda."

NOBODY IS SAYING YOU CANT! All we are saying is just because YOU think GTA was more artistic than TP doesnt mean that definitively GTA was more artistic than TP.

THINK WHAT YOU WANT IS ARTISTIC! That is the beauty of art. Thats all I've been saying. Art is personal. What is art to you does not have to be art to me. That does not make it any less artistic to you. Some may find true artistry in the way an orchestra plays. Others may find true artistry in the way a rapper raps. Just because one person finds rap to be more artistic than a symphony doesn't mean NOBODY is allowed to find a symphony more artistic than rap.

That being said, I am off of work and going to the doctor, but might be back in a few hours if anyone is around to discuss this any more.

If I can refer to a 500,000 dollar car as a toy which at my current situation I could never imagine actually owning any that cost more than 10,000 I think it would seem appropriate to call a 600 paperweight a toy.... Anything that is used for pleasure or entertainment is a toy..... I could say more then my girlfriend... would kill me...

I'll start up and mention a few gameplay arts that I see in each game there are many more and add the ones you think:

Zelda
----------
Puzzle solving
Exploration
Combat

GTA
--------
Agro management
Combat
Driving Physics


These are really basic and you could no doubt break up these categories into smaller categories but for the sake of time I am being general...What other gameplay elements are there in these games?

"But again the definitions are so broad and the topic so subjective that arguing about it becomes as pointless as arguing if there's a God."

Page 1 of the comments was about SUPER AWESOME MICRONINTENSONY Zelda.
Page 2 was about video games as art...mostly comparisons to GTA and Zelda.
Page 3 shall be about whether or not God exists.
...and if he plays Zelda.

Homeworld is the most artistic game made ever, period.

PERIOD.

No other game did such a good job making you care about people, even your enemies, without ever even showing a human face.

PLAY HOMEWORLD NOW.

God does not exist.

But if he did, he would totally be a Zelda fanboy.
He would also love the idea of Metal Gear Fantasy Link.

JodyAnthony hit the nail on the head with that last comment. Unfortunately there are many people who believe themselves to be "better" than everyone else, and who believe their opinion is automatically better, and that they are the only true deciders of a work's quality. Obviously some people have more insight into certain things and can better describe why they think so highly of a particular novel, movie, game etc., but to say the other person's opinions are "worthless" is just elitist snobbery.

Or maybe it should be Ninja Gear Auto-Fantasy Link...

God does not play dice... he plays Zelda.

@samfish

The problem with your reasoning is you're too stuck on the "classic" definition of art. "Classic" being what you were told in school yo think was art. I just don't buy that.. and, in fact, it's one of the problems with education in general, IMO. For example, in school you're told that certain books are classics and you're forced to read them. IMO, that's why so many kids are turned off of reading and would rather do something else. They had books they didn't enjoy shoved down their throats. After all, if the so-called "classics" weren't enjoyable, why would any other book be enjoyable? Such a shame.

I bet none of you ever even PLAYED homeworld.

"Obviously some people have more insight into certain things and can better describe why they think so highly of a particular novel, movie, game etc., but to say the other person's opinions are "worthless" is just elitist snobbery."

I never said that your opinion wasn't important to you.

Um, what did I start?

At any rate, I think all three consoles have strong lineups, and I don't think anyone who prefers one over another is a retard. And to be honest I don't think any of the released games for any of the 3 next gen systems classify as "art" in the classical sense referred to earlier. But the classical definition doesn't really apply to a new technology like video games, does it?

Wait, we're going about this all wrong samfish. This is going to be a Playstation 4 game. It wouldn't have a Nintendo-sounding name like "Super Metal Gear Zelda V." It would be something much more simple and confusing, like "Navi Black." Yeah, that makes the perfect amount of un-sense for a Playstation title.

But you're right, ninjas are mandatory. Especially ones with robot arms.

@Jonathan Tran

I, for one, have not played Homeworld. But you do have me interested. What platform is it on?

"God does not play dice... he plays Zelda."

Yer wrong...I was with him the other day and after we had spent a few hours punishing non-believers in other galaxies...he told me he wanted to play with my sister's My Little Pony.

After that, God insisted he do my hair.

And then he cried about his last love and how he got dumped.

He had to leave after that....something about wanting to create another Universe.

You're right Jonathan Tran, I've never played Homeworld, but you've piqued my interest...

And about "art", I'll just spout out some cliches like "different strokes for different folks" and "to each his own" b/c I'm tired of typing things about it.

I totally agree with Vidikron about kids getting books they don't like shoved down their throat.

Bottom line: You can't make someone like something.

"I believe Shags point is that Nintendo isn't even trying to be artistic (regardless of what art is)."

The point is not valid. It doesn't pay to make a game that is totally abstract and illegible to regular viewers. Even art critics look at the art and consider the context of the work, the artist's thoughts and physical input, if there's a message the work is conveying, how well it communicates to the observer, etc... you can't discount a creative piece because of it doesn't do something the same way as another piece.

Pokemon could be considered a work of art. Earthbound could be considered a work of art. Even any installment of the Mario or Zelda series could be considered art. Because of making games from their own personal experiences (in this case, Mr. Tajiri, Mr. Itoi, or Mr. Miyamoto's) or desire to see something in a game, the games are what they are. There is really never a concious decision to make a game artistic or not.

Art is meaningless without context. For all the times Shaggitaurus is saying that TP isn't that artistic someone would argue that GTA isn't more artistic. But Shaggitaurus is likely willing to explain why he thinks so while I might contend that TP is art. The important part of the dialogue is the sharing of artistic contexts rather than declaring if something is art or not.

*takes a deep breath*

@GodisaMyth

You know, it IS possible for someone to like Zelda AND My Little Pony. Duh.

This is the song that never ends. It just goes on and on my friends. Some people just started singing not knowing what it was. For it is the song that never ends. It just goes on and on my friend. Some people just started singing not knowing what it was. For it is the song that never ends. ad nauseum

Your mission if you choose to accept Ninja Gear Auto-Fantasy Link is to go back in time and kill that little lamb and his friends to end the song that never ends by preventing its start. Then you will proceed to start the fire. To help the universe from collapsing under the time-space continuum galactic collapse as foretold by The Doc are Chuck "Roundhouse Kick" Norris, Mr. "I pity the Fool" T., The Undefeated of the East Master Asia, Master Hand, The Mario, and Reggie "Kick Ass Take Names Smasher" Filsime

I agree with you nintendofanbot (i cant believe i just said that) I wish people were more willing to discuss the artistic merits of the games in question, its a conversation that I would certainly enjoy. I tried to start it up by asking people to point out gameplay elements in each of the 2 games...but when your at work or whatever it probably takes way too much time to get into a serious discussion.

@NintendoFanbot

I disagree with you. I believe many pieces of art were very intentional. For example, I believe most people that become musicians specifically want to be artists.

However, I might agree that I should reword the way I said that and say this: many of us want games to try to be more artistic, and a company may lose our respect by saying that they won't try.

Please note that I'm not necessarily agreeing with Shag about what he considers art. But I think I get what he's trying to say.

...

But seriously, you people are getting in the way of our lovely ideas for the next-next-gen Zelda game. Who thinks Link needs dual-wielding?

You know that Smash Bros. 64/Melee/Brawl is the Sistine Chapel of Videogames.

What was this blog about anyway?

Homeworld was for PC, it is an RTS in outer space, considered the ONLY game to ever have workable TRUE 3D rts controls (i.e. you can attack from above or below, or even from inside enemies with well placed hyperspace warping)

Look up homeworld on Metacritic.com, you will see it is one of the best rated PC games of all time, the graphics even today are great, with an amazing soundtrack and cutscenes that would bring even Jack of No Trades to tears.

Homeworld 2 was much better visually, and balance wise, however the storyline was not AS good (still good though)

The premise of HW was that these people on a desert planet find a giant spacewreck buried in their desert. They research it and after hundreds of years figure out that they are not from that planet, and that they were from a different world. So they combine all their forces and stop warring with each other and build a Mothership to carry their population back to home.

However they soon discover that they were originally forced to leave their homeworld by a massive war, and that by leaving their desert world they have violated a 10,000 year old treaty. You must guide your people to their homeworld and fight off the threats of ancient enemies as well as reacquainting ancient allies.

it is AWESOME, the campaign is the DEFINITION of EPIC, as well as tragic and moving.

Also the only narrator is this woman Karen Sajet, who actually killed herself so that her mind could act as the AI to the mothership, and her ghostly, sad voice is your main friend for the journey.

Also the game is special in that you retain your fleet for every mission, so you really feel an interest in every ship you lose, or every enemy ship you steal (you can steal or scrap them), though stealing is harder.

You can build everything from tiny fighters to carriers and missile frigates, and the controls are awesome, nothing is cooler than seeing your 3 mile long carrier kamikaze into the enemy motherships!

Homeworld 2 deserved to be a best selling game but was eclipsed by some other titles.

I guarantee you read the reviews you WILL buy this game, and you could get it for like $10 for HW1 now or maybe $15 or $20 for HW2

@Shag

I thought about going more in detail about the features in Grand Theft Auto and Zelda, but I already made a fairly detailed analysis of the games before (though I didn't go into exact features) and I don't really feel like going into it again.

I would say the most artistic game I've ever played was Bladerunner. The game kind of sucked, but it really tried hard to create something totally different from other game experiences, and partially succeeded.

I didn't say I disagreed with you Anam, but rather using your summary of Shag's point instead of all of Shag's posts.

Of course there are pieces of art that are very intentional. Sometimes it's what the person realizing what they want to say through the piece. Or like I said 2 posts ago, that people made these renowned pieces as a job, selling them cheaply, for regular people to buy.

But outright saying that "you as a developer will try" rather than letting people judge for themselves can have dire consequences and gives you MUCH more to worry about. See: Too Human.

@Jonathan Tran

That's it. You're hired for marketing on Navi Black.

@ Anam

My post disappeared. Sorry, I'll re-type it in a bit.

Oh wait, nevermind. Sorry for the triple post.

"The problem with your reasoning is you're too stuck on the "classic" definition of art. "Classic" being what you were told in school yo think was art. I just don't buy that.. and, in fact, it's one of the problems with education in general, IMO. For example, in school you're told that certain books are classics and you're forced to read them. IMO, that's why so many kids are turned off of reading and would rather do something else. They had books they didn't enjoy shoved down their throats. After all, if the so-called "classics" weren't enjoyable, why would any other book be enjoyable? Such a shame."

I'm not "stuck" on anything. Hell, I do commercial art for a living. I see more crap "art" every day than most people do in a year, probably.
You're assuming people are all lemmings, it sounds like. And while that might be true in on a macro level, I don't think that argument holds up on the micro level. Individually, people are usually pretty independent, I think.


The reason I'm "stuck" on classical art definitions is because those pieces of work, be they books, cinema, painting/pencil/etc or music is because they've withstood the test of time.
I mentioned War And Peace and Catcher In The Rye. I hated War And Peace. I also was nearly put to sleep by Dante's Inferno.
But at the same time, I can recognize WHY those pieces have withstood the test of time and WHY they're considered 'good'.

We remember those works still today. There's nothing in video games, except MAYBE OoT that can hold up to the classic definition of art.

And if no video game can hold up to the classical definitions of art...if it won't be remembered, then what's the point? It's done nothing to further humanity in some way. It's just another piece of forgettable creativity that falls by the wayside of history. It's just entertainment...just like every other lost and forgotten painting, movie or score is.
I want a video game to succeed in the classical definition of art because that would, in part, truly validate video games as a real artistic medium. I think it's important for the medium as a whole to obtain that status.



Oh, and God totally thinks Link could beat the crap of out Kratos.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/art

here's some definitions of art. Not that it matters. People don't buy games because of their artistic nature, they buy games to have fun (thus making them a toy toyshttp://www.thefreedictionary.com/). This whole discussion is a waste of time. I'm glad I stopped reading a long time ago.

@NintendoFanbot

I think you're making it out to be a little too extreme. While there are certainly games that tried to be artistic and failed (see previously mentioned Bladerunner), I do think it's important for companies to try to make something unique and interesting. And although I'm a Nintendo fan, I have to somewhat agree that right now Nintendo doesn't seem to be trying as hard with their software.

And (I can't believe I'm saying this) EA seems to have the right idea with Boogie. I'm more excited about that than any game Nintendo has announced. Sure, it's somewhat subjective. But I think to a certain extent, everyone respects companies that try to make something new.

Sure, Twilight Princess was great, but it was mostly a rehash of features from the last couple of Zelda games. On the other hand, Microsoft (and, to a lesser extent, Sony) has quite a few games that sound like they're really trying to create something new (regardless of whether they succeed).

Anyway, I think everyone on here is saying the same thing with different words. Not much left to debate.

...

Link needs those rocket boots from the Super Mario Bros. movie!

Sleep tight ya morons!

"Oh, and God totally thinks Link could beat the crap out of Kratos."

Good one samfish. He could use the mirror shield to deflect the Medusa ray and it'd be all over!

Plus, if he has the red tunic, the blades of chaos wouldn't do crap.

"Sleep tight ya morons!"

This is the reason I was hesitant about siding with Shag...

"Sleep tight ya morons!"

This is the reason I was hesitant about siding with Shag..."

I don't usually like to point out quotes but so you don't think I was refering to anyone here its a quote from Catcher in the Rye that samfish was talking about. Its one of my favorite books, and I thought samfish would enjoy the reference.

FUCK

^Thats also from Catcher in the Rye =P

I would LOVE to do game marketing as a job. Who do I have to know to get into that? ^^

@Shag

Ah, I retract my statement. You have to admit though, you don't exactly come across as friendly...

@Jonathan Tran

Wonderful, we'll call you after the first stage of pre-development!

Seriously though, I'll be checking out Homeworld. That is, if it's available on Mac. Is it available on Mac? Please tell me it's available on Mac. Otherwise I'll be upset about yet another game not available on Mac...

I can be a little harsh occasionally, I get excited about things, but believe me when I say no matter how it may appear I wouldn't talk to only hear myself. For what thats worth...

ANAM:
"I do think it's important for companies to try to make something unique and interesting. And although I'm a Nintendo fan, I have to somewhat agree that right now Nintendo doesn't seem to be trying as hard with their software."

While it's important for the companies to try, it's not so important for them to SAY they will try. Nintendo doesn't always try either, even I know can say that much. Last year they made this important point "Playing = Believing", that the only opinion that matters is yours, as the player. Nintendo (or insert other company, Ex: Capcom) makes what they make and gamers can share what they like and don't like.

-------------

"But I think to a certain extent, everyone respects companies that try to make something new."
True that. I myself am actually appreciating what EA is doing. And I think it speaks volumes towards this conversation with how people feel about the majority of Ubi-Soft's Wii efforts. :P

They were holding back with TP (though I thought the story was excellent), but mostly if only to satisfy their legion of fans before they start doing something totally different (a conference a while back had Aonuma revealing they had worked on try 1st-person combat/adventuring for TP) and that could be one of a hundred elements they've considered for the next installment.

But what matters is that you get to play the game after 4 years of waiting and buying time to refine these new ideas for the next installment, rather than try to do everything in one game.

jodz,

it's not "my toy is better than your toy" for a lot of fanboys.

for me it's really simple. sony ruined videogames. also, sony are a bunch of fucking ass holes.

-"superfan" tactics.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2001/06/11

This thread reminds me of the third panel of that comic. Notice how they weren't trying to portray those particular attitudes in a positive light... anyway. Yeah.