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Reader Comments (82)

Posted: Jul 6th 2007 2:23AM (Unverified) said

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@ruru..

well dude.. you're pretty much quoting a lot of what haters have said.. yes as much as doesn't seem to like the ps3, even they found a way to work with it.

the same was said about the ps2, it was hard to program, now it's a joke, just beacause ubi said it's not good look at naughty dog, or insomniac and see if they think the hardware sucks?

the information that you have gathered about the cell is wrong, don't believe what you have read in fanboys sites... research it and then come back
the blu ray's speed thou slightly slower, it's constant, thou a 12x is faster, this speed is RARELY achieved, running slower than bluray at most points of the dvd,

the cell runs with so much harmony with itself that you have no idea what you're talking about, even the ram, thou assigned to either the cell or the rsx graphics they can still use eash other rams if programmed to do so, so even thou is assigned it can also be shared, anyhow..

even the cell inventors are still finding new things about it so for you to come here and try to say that you know how it works and how bad is for the ps3 sounds not only fanboish, but to me it seems like an attempt of denial the the 360 is better, dude because the 360 has more games right now, not necessarely good, the 360 has the lead, but is not gonna last, anyhow, just wait a few days, make sure you watch e3 and that will clear some things up for you

Posted: Jul 6th 2007 2:26AM (Unverified) said

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if "bluray sux" why are you gonna get spider man 3.and bluray is the best one yet .imbetting bluray will be the standard hddvd fomat in 5 years

Posted: Jul 6th 2007 2:32AM (Unverified) said

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...Ok now to start I'm an Xbox fanboy buy far so I wont try to hide it like some of these...people. Now
I just want to say I am sick of being on the loseing team! I am all over the internet watching my fellow
fanboys rip PS3 to shreds and stomp on it but...Have
you if you a**holes stoped to think once in awile...
we have we consentrated all of our efforts fighting the PS3 in case you have not heard EVERTHING outsells the 360 PSP,PS2,Wii,DS all out selling the 360 some by even triple that of the 360 now you tell me this yes we beat the PS3 but SONY has already won!
Yes they have...PSP and PS2 have all ready made and making SONY so much money that it is just insane!!!
Now lets stop this stupid pointless banter SONY is not going to die they have to much money they will drop it to $199 if we dont stop it...It's simple less sales=more price drops .Don't let our system turn into the regular Xbox(The deadest system on the planet thanks to the PS2)...

Posted: Jul 6th 2007 2:42AM (Unverified) said

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Well....not really such a bargain. I luv my PS3 and was lucky to get one of the very first Wurlitzer launch jobbies, and it has been b/c with every PS2 I've put thru it. From what I'm hearin tho the noobs are zip or minimal b/c at best. So Sony is dumping the price down to save face and avoid looking like greedy,masturbating 3 Lambos-in-the-garage pricks. Don't get the wrong impression tho,the PS3 is a sweeeeet machine! lol

Posted: Jul 6th 2007 3:33AM (Unverified) said

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jesus the sony defence force is out and defending.......maybe they should have a new name besides the sony defence force.....how about early adapting suckers???

Posted: Jul 6th 2007 5:34AM (Unverified) said

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@50 That's a very good point, "imbetting bluray will be the standard hddvd fomat in 5 years".

5 years is time for the next generation of consoles, thus, it can almost be considered pointless to have a BD drive now. I was in Blockbusters the other day and they have about 1 entire column of BD films (yea, compared to hundred+ DVD or something).

Not to mention, once BD is the norm, BD drives will be ridiculously cheap akin to DVD players so there is little point in buying into it now when DVDs are still very much the standard in everyday life.

Posted: Jul 6th 2007 5:42AM (Unverified) said

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Ska makes a point. Sony HQ is still denying. Could be for E3 though, but I know I will get a good laugh at the comments in the earlier thread :p.

Being an internet analyst rocks, apparantly.

Posted: Jul 9th 2007 10:17PM (Unverified) said

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Yeah... (the initial stock of PS3s sold out to mobs of fans who waited in the November cold)...

That may be true in some cases, but where I live, they NEVER sold in MANY stores, with many have one to three PS3s left... That does not sound like they sold out to mobs of fans...

Posted: Jul 6th 2007 7:39AM (Unverified) said

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A ps3/Warhawk bundle this Holidays @ $450 would be a sure hit for Sony. Hopefully too all these games will be out by them: Heavenly Sword, GTA4, Madden NFL 08, Stranglehold, Ratchet & Clank, The Getaway, Killzone, Afrika, EyeToy: Eyedentify, MGS4: Guns Of The Patriots, Unreal Tournament III, Turok, Medal Of Honor: Airborne, Half-Life 2: The Orange Box, PES 2008, Assassin's Creed, Army Of Two, Resident Evil 5, Haze, Tom Clancy's EndWar, Alone In The Dark.... Can't wait!

I think a 10 year stratagy for this gen is acheivable with the ps3 as it is equipped to handle the lastest HD tech, and the 1.3 hdmi tv's that are soon to hit stores:-

Supports 48-bit xvYCC with Deep Color
Automatic audio syncing
Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio lossless Audio
(360 elite uses hdmi 1.2)

This gen is not over yet either as PS2 is still selling phenominally well in its 7th year in production. The Wii also has proved that non-HD gaming is not over yet.
PS1 only went out of production last year, I think.

Posted: Jul 6th 2007 2:20PM DoggySpew said

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Do like me, buy them both.

Posted: Jul 6th 2007 8:38AM erh said

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@Hatchetforce "The Cell is hard to program for but the results by tenacious devs will yield AI and physics backed by hardware not available on other systems."

Physics yes, but not AI. The Cell's SPEs can do only one thing well: floating point multiplication. How's that going to help parse a decision tree or pathfinding algorithm? The Cell's SPEs are ill-suited for AI. Sure you can make an SPE do AI, but they are really, really, inefficient at it.

@Hatchetforce "GRAW 2 on the PS3 looks quite noticeably better, has 14 additional maps, 8 more weapons, and an additional MP mode versus what is on the 360. And it's a port."

First, have you played GRAW2 on the PS3? Because I'm pretty sure that it hasn't been released yet. Second, the developers have months to add more content. Ports often have more content, it's a developer's way of trying to sell more copies of an old game.

@BulletToothTony "you think that the xbox3 is coming out in 3 years?? wow then m$ just offered a pointless warranty, even if it's 5, you do realize that the cell it's gonna be pretty hard to beat right.."

The Cell is already beaten twice over by an Intel Core 2 Duo, in real world game performance. Of course, the Intel uses more transistors for 2 cores than the Cell uses for all 8, which should give you a clue to how weak the Cell's SPEs really are! In 3 years, the PS3 will seem as out of date as the PS2 seems now.

Posted: Jul 6th 2007 8:44AM (Unverified) said

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With the $100 price drop and the 5 free movie offer I will be picking up a PS3. I had kind of been waiting to see if there would be a price drop before this holiday run. I almost bought it last month...lucky for me I had to buy my wife a new laptop instead...
Now if they will just get the rumble added back in...then I would be set!

Posted: Jul 6th 2007 4:07PM pmiddy said

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eh, I might pick one up if the price drops. $500 isn't THAT ridiculous for what you get.

But for everyone pointing out you get 5 free Blu-Ray movies: Have you looked at your choices? I can honestly say I'd watch maybe 3 of them, and want to own less than that.

Stealth? Underworld? Chicken Little? Invincible? Pearl Harbor? Yecccchh!

No thanks.

Posted: Jul 6th 2007 9:16AM sqlrob said

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@50:

Spiderman 3 coming out on Blu-Ray. What a surprise. A *SONY* studio coming out only on Blu-Ray. I couldn't have seen that one coming.

Every single movie coming out only on Blu-Ray or HD-DVD couldn't get me to switch to either. They need to dump key revocation before that.

Posted: Jul 6th 2007 9:17AM hotpuck6 said

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theoretically, since the US dollar is devaluing day by day, every day the PS3 doesn't drop in price, means that the system costs more on that day than ever before.

Posted: Jul 6th 2007 9:46AM (Unverified) said

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Isn't it odd that the people who pipe in that you can't determine the winner of the current console race based on the first few months are the same people who claim that Blu-Ray has trounced HD-DVD? Haven't those formats only been out for a little while themselves? But that war is over? With that logic, the Wii has already won this war and the PS3 has placed a distant third.

Of course, since when was logic ever a major player in these discussions?

Posted: Jul 6th 2007 9:53AM elmer said

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@ Rick

I've just read your post and realised something very important about myself as a Nintendo fanboy.

The way you described the positive attributes of PS3 is nigh identical to the way I described the positive attributes of N64 in 1996. And it was great. But Nintendo lost. They only survived to the present on the backs of loyalty to the best 1st party development in the world. I don't think Sony could rely on the same thing.

@ Evan
"The Cell's SPEs are ill-suited for AI. Sure you can make an SPE do AI, but they are really, really, inefficient at it."

What's your point? General purpose units are ill-suited for physics. Sure you can make a regular core to physics, but they are really, really, inefficient at it.

Seen as developers don't seem to have the imagination to do anything more interesting than AI and Physics, both these types of processes will be in demand, making Cell very well equipped to handle some things but not others.

Further, I would have you learn the lessons of PS1. PS1 had practically no RAM and relatively limited rendering capabilities. Developers instead played to its strengths, hence pre-rendered backgrounds taking advantage of its CD drive, and a stylised look to FF7 characters before they worked out how to do more geometry and textures. Developers will simply make games that take advantage of Cell and ignore processes that don't work on it.

Oh, wait, I meant Japanese developers will. American developers will continue attempting to adapt PC coding practices to very non-PC chips because they don't like anything unfamiliar.

Posted: Jul 6th 2007 9:57AM (Unverified) said

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That's more like it. Now just talk Square-Enix into remaking Final Fantasy 7 and I'll buy one.

Posted: Jul 6th 2007 10:47AM WiNGSPANTT from TopTierTacticsco said

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@63

Very true.

Keep in mind though that the second you buy a PS3 it becomes VERY expensive since consoles have little resale value (outside of short supply i.e. the Wii right now), so just owning it is basically throwing away probably 15% of its value per year.

And if/when you DO resell it, the money you get back is worth much less than it would have been worth if you first sold it.

And Sony/MS/Ninty would love to trick you into thinking a console is an investment, just like so many people think a car is an investment.

[hint: it isn't]

Also, check THIS OUT:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyXUVd2c83c

Posted: Jul 6th 2007 10:48AM WiNGSPANTT from TopTierTacticsco said

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@64 yeah everyone should just admit by now, that Wii and Bluray and Coca Cola are the winners of their respective wars

Posted: Jul 6th 2007 11:00AM (Unverified) said

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@Jonathan Tran

Can I also now say that the SNES beat the Genesis? Because I have friends that will still fight me over that... I pity them, really.

Posted: Jul 6th 2007 11:11AM (Unverified) said

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You have a good point there with the N64 Elmer. It WAS a mile better than the ps1 & as a N64 owner myelf (Still upstairs with my NES*SNES) I was gutted. I think the problem was it could not compete with the hype of the PS1 (damn I hated Sony then). Another problem was ppl percieved the N64 as inferior because it used traditional ROM Cartridges (untrue of course). The expensive games were another factor I think.

The premise that the best hardware will inevitably fail I dont agree with though. The superior SNES beat the Genesis hands down, despite Genesis 2 year head start.

Still I think the ps3 is a good deal but not for everyone. If people want a games console then definitely the Wii is hands down the king of the console market for the next 3-5 years.

Posted: Jul 6th 2007 11:19AM (Unverified) said

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@rick

I'm going to somewhat disagree with you about the N64 comment. The N64 was more powerful in most ways, but the PS1 had better audio capability which made a lot of the games feel like more of a rich experience. I hated the load times of the PS1 though... horrible.

But in general, yeah the N64 rocked. Too bad they didn't get enough third party support.

Anyway, how about that Apple 2e? It was pretty rockin' with those green pixels.

Posted: Jul 6th 2007 11:25AM Altairio said

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I hope this whole saga teaches console makers an important lesson, which is: $600 is an obscene price for a console. Because even after a big $100 price cut, you're still asking people to shell out 5 bills for your gaming machine, and that's still pretty ridiculous.

Posted: Jul 6th 2007 12:05PM (Unverified) said

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@elmer "What's your point? General purpose units are ill-suited for physics. Sure you can make a regular core to physics, but they are really, really, inefficient at it"

My point was correcting Hatchetforce's belief that the Cell processor is all-powerful at AI. That's all. I agree totally with you, that the cell is good at some things and poor at other things.

Unfortunately, the PS2's Emotion Engine proved that being good at floating point multiplication doesn't mean much in real world game performance. By Sony's claims, the Emotion Engine was three times as powerful as the XBox1's Intel CPU. It had three times the "GFLOPs". But the best XBox games still pumped out more geometry and better physics than the best PS2 games. The PS3's GFLOP performance edge over the 360 is even less than the PS2's GFLOP performance edge over the XBox1.

Posted: Jul 6th 2007 1:56PM (Unverified) said

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Well firstoff hatchetforce.. stating that "the PS2 was criticized over its high price" is way out there. people would give you more credence if you related some of your arguments to the real world - criticism over a $300 price point is far, far different than criticism over a $600 price point. Trying to make the PS3 look like PS2 here is insane. If you know the CE industry you know the public doesnt even begin to think about buying in volume until sub $300, and doesnt actually start buying in real volume until sub-$200. Lo and behold we saw that with PS3. You comparison to a $600 PS3, that it is merely another PS2 that has the same breakout potential, is disconnected from reality. It also reveals that if you are actually in the biz, you are definitely more on the tech side than involved with actually knowing how to sell the things and what consumer behavior/adoption patterns are like.

As for some of the rest:


"Most analysts have stated the format war is over and Blu-ray has won"

Only those who have gobbled up Sony PR and havent done a lot of researching about attach rates or player penetration, as well as PS3 attach rates, which happen to be low. Note that most have said that the war is still far from over, so your spin is noted here.


"but it will be up to 2 years until the public fully steps that way. "

Probably agree. People in general are not buying a lot of blue laser players of either format, particularly those of Blu-ray. I'll get to that. People are happy with DVD, enough that they are not going to jump for HD playback until it gets cheap enough, like sub-$200. Which is likely Christmastime for HD-DVD and 2009 for BD.

"With prices falling on Blu-ray devices left and right, "

Yes, falling to remaining about least 70% more expensive than the rival HD-DVD format's devices at all product levels. And falling to the "bargain" $500 price which people already showed us they had no willingness to buy in volume anyway, in the form of the 20gb PS3 which was a console AND BD player AND sold so bad at retail sony had to dump it in favor of the 60gb version only.

"with the PS3 in Europe being responsible for major increases in Blu-ray movie sales there is a prediction to be had there. "

I have to LOL at people who dont know what is behind this PR spin that was put out. Let's see. Worldwide, BD players sell badly, no exaggeration. And, previous to PS3 launch, standalone BD player sales in EMEA were just plain awful, people actually much favor HD-DVD players in Europe to an even higher degree than in N. America (where HD DVD players to this day still well outsell BD players). As such BD disc volume in EMEA was practically non-existent, showing the same significantly lower attach rate compared to HD-DVD, same is in N. America. So PS3 launches - it is not a big achievement to bump up disc sales by 1000 percent, when you were moving practically nothing beforehand. You could probably do it with an attach rate of half a movie across the 1M PS3s sold in Europe. Out of context, impressive. In context, (increasing nearly non-existent sales by 1000 percent) not so impressive.

"No one needs to spell it out either."

Apparently some do. Sony's console is doing badly. It will continue to do badly so long as it sits at a non-mainstream price point. All your talk is useless because you are unable to understand the problem from a consumer behavior standpoint, which is the only one that matters, e.g. if you cannot get the consumers to adopt your hardware, you cannot make money. And what I mean is that no amount of talking about technical advantages, or what games MAY or may not be coming out, or what other cool stuff about the PS3 you think makes it a winner, really matter to the consumer - right now their biggest rub is the price. Above a certain price point for this category, they could not care less if the PS3 could double as a Roomba and vacuum their house. Disagree? Fine. However actual sales worldwide prove this point. $600 consoles sell poorly to the mainstream after fanboys take their share.

If you want to sell mainstream volume, price matters. If you want to occupy a premium niche, extract lots of margin, and sell a low but profitable volume, high price is ok if you can get away with it. However particularly considering its long term strategy and Blu-ray plans, Sony wants this to be a mainstream-numbers product. But with a price that is so far disconnected from the mainstream that the Sony is truly conflicted as to what to do. Absorb massive losses from radical price cuts, or absorb massive losses from a console that sits with 2+ million units in inventory that isnt moving well, and is likely to keep growing in inventory level.

On top of that on the HD disc front you have $200 HD-DVD players by year end or mid-2008 if Wal-Mart has their way, and likely Toshiba will have $249 or $200 players on its own via holiday rebates as well.

"Microsoft will be eating serious humble pie when they go to make their next console and have to license Blu-ray technology."

Microsoft and Intel are not abandoning HD-DVD and have no reason to as currently the format has more traction on the PC side, in case you missed that HP and Samsung both moved to being HD DVD friendly. On top of that they are fans of their own particular roles in the content protection world and have no interest in supporting Sony's proprietary DRM if they dont have to.

Studios will follow installed base, if there is a sizeable hardware base that consumes tons of movies, they are going to sell to it, it is how they make money. Currently the HD DVD base has a much higher movie attach rate than BD (mostly because all figures point to only a fraction of PS3 owners actually being repeat movie buyers), and Vito Mandato on behalf of paramount expected the gap between the two installed bases to nearly equal each other eventually due to slowing PS3 sales and increased price-driven sales of HD DVD hardware.

So in summary:

1. The PS3 is no PS2 by ANY MEASURE, most especially price which happens to be double what the PS2 is, and cannot be rationalized away as anything other than what it is - the main problem.

2. The Format war is just heating up. Btw the total difference in library between the two formats is only like 20-30 titles. And people buy lots more HD DVD players compared to BD players despite the "studio advantage" that is supposed to make such a difference - no reason for this other than price is a big driver for people. And price will be a big factor starting in the holidays when we see $200 vs. $400 for HD DVD vs BD.

Posted: Jul 6th 2007 2:37PM (Unverified) said

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at number 46 .. this is from Circuit City, not Sony, they have confirmed that they are doing a one week sale on the system . Stores like Circuit City, Best Buy take losses on certain items to pull people into their stores in hopes of getting them to eye even bigger items while there, Sony is the only company that can pull a all out price cut, but each individual store chain can run its own discounts.. just like the bundles, these small discounts in bundles are created by the stores to bring people in not the game companies themselves..

Posted: Jul 6th 2007 2:41PM KaneRobot said

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steve johnson: "Has anyone forgotten that the PS3 WAS priced at $499 and didn't sell well? It bugs me because the real sweet spot for Sony to hit is $400 to compete with the suXBox."

Your MOM is a suXBox.

What? It's no worse than attaching stupid nicknames to consoles.

Hatchetforce: "I would never have thought a few months ago that Blu-ray would have become so prominent and actually win the war but the security imbedded in Blu-ray won over studios left and right."

And yet HD DVD is still doing fine, with cheap players in Wal-Mart this Christmas destined to put them right on an even keel with Blu-Ray again...if not surpass them completely.

I wish these people whining about how important content is in the "war" would actually look at the release lists for both formats thus far. Universal has released a TON of great films, both new and old. Blu-Ray has released next to nothing worthwhile that is not also available on HD DVD.

Again, it goes back to swallowing Sony's nonsense: you guys are so quick to dismiss their gaming press releases, yet gobble up their HD Disc info? LOL. Zebra doesn't change its stripes, kiddies.

Posted: Jul 6th 2007 3:55PM (Unverified) said

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"I wish these people whining about how important content is in the "war" would actually look at the release lists for both formats thus far. "

I think what's more important is that Blu-ray content, as evidenced by declining PS3 sales worldwide and standalone BD players being outsold by HD DVD players, has NOT proven to be an advantage in moving hardware into people's homes.

Why? The hardware is too expensive, both the players and the PS3.

So that question remains for those who still dont get it... if Sony/BDA has such the phenomenally superior content package, and it matters so much to consumers, why is the PS3 floundering and why do so few BD players sell? And why does HD DVD with its "inferior" library outsell BD's standalone players in every major market?

Why? Because with such a price difference between the two formats' hardware in place, HD DVD's content library is more than good enough for the average joe who is in the market right now. Price is making them choose HD DVD.

This behavior is not good for Sony, because they are on the wrong end of the price equation compared to the competiton, with both their console and their BD players.

Posted: Jul 6th 2007 4:56PM Mr Khan said

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There is a reason i want the Wii to win this gen (beyond my Nintendo supporting status)

If Wii wins, it will set a precedent to keep the price points down. $300 should be the upper limit for new consoles, period.

And you can't compare the PS2's slow launch to the PS3's. The PS2 had no strong competition at launch, with one competitor on the way out and the other two about a year away. The PS3 had a competitor that was there to stay and a new competitor hit the market at the same time. Its also hard to draw comparisons between this generation and the last one. Last time all 4 boxes were basically the same thing with a different coat of paint

Posted: Jul 6th 2007 7:13PM elmer said

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Hey Evan

As you say, you're completely right about the comparative limits of Cell at AI, but I think you misjudge the significance of floating point calculations in video games and don't give the Emotion Engine (corny) its proper due. It's true that EE had a far higher FP throughput than the Xbox CPU. The difference was the Graphics Synthesiser (also corny) was basically a glorified Texture unit and didn't have much in the way of geometry function. All transform and lighting calculations were typically handled by EE, using all those flops up, while the Xbox GPU had nice hardware programmable vertex and lighting shader units. Truth is Xbox had a far higher total FP throughput across the whole system, hence the observable difference, but EE really was quite capable.

The real question is if you can do all the FP grunt work on the GPU on programmable shaders with a high throughput, why need Vector Units/SPEs at all? The answer, as we've mentioned, is that being able to do more flexible types of number heavy calculations, vector units are uniquely qualified at things like physics, DSP effects, image analysis, other complex geometry manipulation etc. There's work to do some of this stuff on GPU's (there's even work to run folding@home on GPUs) but it's a little ways off.

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