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Posted: Jul 23rd 2007 7:27PM Neebs said

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The fuck is high art?
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Posted: Jul 24th 2007 11:41AM Grey Acumen said

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Well, first, you start painting, then you realize that no one is ever going to buy your art because it's about as emotionally evocative as looking at dryer lint.
Then you start with weed before working your way up to cocaine and heroine. Eventually you'll cut off your ear and commit suicide at which point some guy will come along and start talking about how deep and meaningful your pieces are because he knows that when they sell you won't be around for him to have to split the profits with.

That's what high art is all about. At least from what this guy says. After all, high art can't possibly be the in depth, professional study and use of color, light, and form as a method of telling a story and evoking emotion from the viewer.
I mean, hell, that's what some of the best games are all about now.

Maybe it's like how the 360 and PS3 fans say that the Wii isn't really a competitor, cause the Wii has such a huge advantage for when it comes to making games that are fun and easy.
It's the same way with high art; games can't possibly be a competitors with sigh art, cause games have all the advantages of having the viewer personally involved in the story the art is telling, as well as being able to incorporate pretty much any 2d or 3d art medium the piece as a whole. So high art just "isn't the same thing"

So there you go. You now know what High Art is: Complete and Total BULLSHIT.
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2007 7:27PM samfish said

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I agree with Ebert.
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2007 7:37PM RobAccomando said

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What about medium art
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2007 7:38PM (Unverified) said

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He's referencing the piece by Warhol, not a literal can of soup.
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2007 8:20PM Ludwig Kietzmann said

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Yes, but Warhol's piece depicted a literal can of soup. He's using it to downplay the status of art -- if games are considered art, it's not much of an achievement considering soup's in there too. :)
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2007 8:23PM Anticrawl said

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No shit sherlock. I'm pretty sure everyone got that. Andy Warhol is a duchebag though, preyed on his actors and led other artists down paths of self distruction.

Anyway, I dunno I've appreciated the art in Gears of War far mor than I have of any movie, book or painting. Anything you can come back to again and again with the same appreciation is truely what they speak of as "high art."
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2007 7:39PM (Unverified) said

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Videogames can be high art. Odin's Sphere, Okami, and Ico to name just a few off the top of my head.

Ebert is an idiot.
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2007 7:45PM (Unverified) said

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Hell, Odin's Sphere is even completely hand drawn.
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2007 7:53PM (Unverified) said

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I don't think we should limit our understanding of games-as-art to games that have stylized graphics.
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Posted: Jul 24th 2007 2:06PM BIGReub said

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Not an Idiot. Just old.
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2007 7:39PM (Unverified) said

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The only people that care about what he says are sheep. Make your own decisions based on your beliefs.
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2007 8:24PM Anticrawl said

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Agreed, I'm a shark. Don't even bother sticking your neck out for either arguement. Necks are for sheep.
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Posted: Jul 24th 2007 4:24PM db26 said

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Which is the one that people like to hug?
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2007 7:50PM (Unverified) said

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Fuck you, Roger Ebert. You tryin' to tell me that Die Hard and some Harlequin romance (film and literature) are more artistic than Twilight Princess (a video game)?
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Posted: Jul 24th 2007 1:21AM teejaykay said

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While I also disagree with Ebert, I feel I must defend him here. He never claimed that all books and movies are more artistic than all video games. His point is that he doesn't consider even the most artistic video games to be high art.
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2007 7:58PM (Unverified) said

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Games are so completely different to anything that has come before them that, it seems to me, the whole argument is moot. Video games certainly contain art in the formal sense, but is 'gameplay' art or is it, as Ebert says, sport (which is another argument entirely).

Of course if we do need to prove our industry is an art (rather than what I imagine to be an eventual evolution of the contemporary definition of the word that will ultimately include games) why not compare it to an improvised. Could games be the audience participated improvised version of movies? A scary thought for people on both sides of the debate I imagine. After all, we already have similar music and theatre improv, and that still counts as art. Right?
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2007 7:55PM JonahFalcon said

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People considered Monet to be "lower class trash" when he was painting. Ditto Picasso and Lichtenstein.

Let's see Ebert play something like Grim Fandango or Planetfall and not be moved.
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2007 8:01PM LuigiHann said

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His line about Andy Warhol keeping a game in its package and calling it "Video Game" is pretty funny.
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2007 8:03PM NintendoFanbot said

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Transformers wasn't a very 'artsy' film, but I sure as hell enjoyed it. :(
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2007 8:04PM (Unverified) said

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Oh I also wanted to add, Edge Editor Margaret Robertson did a wonderful keynote called "Games That Make Me Cry" at EIEF '06, specifically to show her side of this exact debate, one that has gone on since long before Robert Ebert got involved.

http://play.tm/wire/click/1131998
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2007 8:11PM Mr Khan said

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Homeworld, Okami, Eternal Darkness, Shadow of the Colossus, most (if not all) Zeldas, Metroid (the dedicated single-player adventure titles, anyway), Phantasy Star, Chrono Trigger

has this man never considered these? All would qualify as "High Art" in my book
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2007 8:12PM (Unverified) said

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so what happens when a game comes out that is high art?
is he gonna make another lame fucking category?super high art?fuck ebert.

games can and are art!people call that new aged crap sculptures with a tv inside of a dog fucking art,even though its just a pile of garbage thrown together.
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2007 8:12PM Mr Khan said

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and that just scratches the surface (i forgot FF, specifically numbers four, six, seven, and nine)
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2007 8:12PM (Unverified) said

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wow i would have to say that ebert is just ignorant.
all art takes is time for the medium to sink in and a majority of a dedicated audience to appreciate it.
i mean, when film came out, i dont think anyone was happy about it. all the old farts were complaining it was taking away from live theatre.
its take about 100 years for a song to become a classic piece, as then it becomes a classical work of art.
games are nothing but art; a time consuming, laborious, masterpiece that would be looked upon by millions of people that would love their effort put into creating a digital world.
Ebert is just old. hes how we are gonna be when they start calling rap art. (lol
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2007 8:25PM (Unverified) said

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Posted: Jul 23rd 2007 8:16PM (Unverified) said

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Art:
1 - the products of human creativity; works of art collectively
2- the creation of beautiful or significant things;
3 - a superior skill that you can learn by study and practice and observation

By definition, games are art. They are products of human creativity, they are significant to gamers and cherished just as paintings are to those that enjoy them and require superior skill to create (and even to play well). Not every painting is a mona lisa and not every game is a Zelda, Ico, etc. But games are art.

/discussion

http://www.folonline.net
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2007 8:16PM (Unverified) said

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and faceless crowd i totally agree with you.
why should our comparisons be directly related to vincent van gogh masterpieces?
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2007 8:39PM Altairio said

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As a man who makes his living critiquing a very narrow art form, ie movies, he sure has no problems defining a subject that spans a wide array of fields. Architects? Clothing designers? Chefs? Are these not artists either? He's far to thick headed to be an end all be all authority on this topic.

I, and most gamers I imagine, have found many games to be far more immersive, beautiful and thought provoking than some of his favorite movies I am sure. Just because they are interactive doesn't negate their artistic merit.

There are far more "midnight releases" generating far more buzz than the likes of narratives such as Harry Potter to validate the artistic value of video games.

In the end, it comes down to why do we as gamers care what the hell Roger fucking Ebert thinks anyways. I'd be all too happy to argue the artistic value in my favorite video game versus the latest piece of cinema he couldn't wait to bash in his weekly review any day.
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2007 8:46PM TC said

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I understand where Ebert is coming from, in that he sees that the video game experience is composed more by the player than the designers. However, I feel he fails to pertain the possibility that this is a progression of how art is traditionally viewed by the public. I would agree that as of yet, no video game as a whole could be described as 'high art'. The art is in the detail - the nuances; maybe several fleeting moments of 'high-art' in one game. I disagree with the 'rewriting of Shakespeare' comparison, in that I feel a truer parallel between a player 'going through the story naked and standing on their hands' and an art critic would be thus: I could view the Mona Lisa and laugh at it for not being photo-realistic or skim over the expression in the painting - it doesn't make it any less a masterpiece, it's just up to the viewer to decide how to appreciate it. I feel that Ebert is perhaps used to being a passive observer of art, and has closed his mind to the possibilities of where the medium can progress in the future. Indeed, you can watch someone play The Legend of Zelda or Final Fantasy and simply admire the drawing and graphical prowess - impressive, but not 'high-art'; it's actually playing the games and realising where the various moments of genius lie that create the enjoyment.
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2007 9:25PM (Unverified) said

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The problem in determining art on the level of (re/inter)action of the producer/consumer is that often times it is disregarded. Indeed, if the opinion/purpose of a producer of "art" is more important than the reaction of the consumer, than many things not considered art would be. In fact, if this were so Ebert wouldn't have a job. If no one cared about the interaction of the producer, then what his role be? He too is a consumer of art. It his level of interaction that determines, for him, the validity of any given medium.

Take a given painting or style/genre, abstract for example. What makes it art? Is it the producer's intent/status/label? Or is the consumer's response and interaction, the validation, that gives it credence?

Another example, writing - specifically symbolism. Does a writer always, positively every time, put in a given symbol with intention of meaning for the assumed reader? No. That's impossible. With any given person's individual life experiences, an "unimportant" object in a story could mean something vast. Again, (re/inter)action is critical to a value of a work.

Ebert's level is low in this regard. Whether that is because he doesn't find (or rather isn't looking for) value in given themes, memes, objects, "simulated" experiences, or he simply doesn't even care to play for them, I don't know.

For those of us who are open to the medium, the experience itself can create intrinsic value. Human empathy is vast, relating the smallest of moments into life-long values. By playing Super Mario World with my brother, a screenshot or jingle can bring fond memories to my mind. There is an investment on the part of the game's producers and myself.

Video games, like books, demand more from their audience than movies. I'm willing to invest, I find the returns worthy. Does Ebert? I guess not.

Do I care?

Only so far as I want to see the medium receiving the credit it deserves.
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2007 8:57PM (Unverified) said

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God, I loved the thirteenth colossus.
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2007 8:59PM (Unverified) said

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I have one HUGE problem with his argument.

Many people consider Theatre a "high art," much more than one would consider a movie. Theatre very much relies on the interpretation of an outside agent, or many outside agents, to be presented. The main framework stays the same, while liberty is taken in details in the presentation. This is much like the role of the gamer in a game, although not exactly the same, of course. The player makes decisions within the frameworks and limitations of the game-space. I would venture to say that a video game programmer has much more control over how their work is interpreted and presented than a playwright.

Just my thoughts.
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2007 9:11PM (Unverified) said

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When you watch a play or movie, you have no real interaction with the "art", whereas with a video game, you have a connection with the story and its characters.

It's not a small feat, but if a developer manages to make a game that is truly "art" (and I'm sure most of you would agree that such games have already been made), I believe it could surpass traditional "art" as it involves the player in personally determining its outcome.
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2007 9:13PM (Unverified) said

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Wait, why do we care what Roger Ebert thinks?
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2007 9:13PM (Unverified) said

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for the guy above me, in comparison of games to art as movies are to theatre, i think theatre is closer to art. simply because movies are a set script and its meant for it to be interpreted a certain way. they will cut the film and shoot it the way they want it. its just there. it cant be changed, like a painting.

as for theatre, it can be modified, the jokes can be said in different ways or contexts. in a wierd way theatre is more interactive and different. they will have different endings depending on the region they are playing in, things like that. well in the same respect games are the same way. it most likely has the same ending but you can change.

so not in a gaming stance, but all forms of art is just for entertainment for making money. thats all it is and all it will ever be. a service.
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2007 9:14PM bm111 said

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Ebert is not stupid.

He's just bitter, and old.

He -knows- his argument is merely based on a vague, arbitrary definition that holds no water (multiple endings or story branches automatically dequalify games from being art? Give me a break).

He just irrationally hates videogames somehow, even though he's never played any (if you read his film reviews, he often uses the videogame comparison as an insult to a movie he doesn't like). Seems he has some kind of image of them stuck in his head and refuses to challenge his own prejudice.

But he doesn't want to come across as some immature troll who just bashes on something for the sake of it. So he invents some kind of odd reason, a completely random definition of what "art" is, merely to belittle videogames and everyone who creates and plays them.

He knows he's wrong, he's not dumb. He's just an asshole.
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2007 9:18PM (Unverified) said

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Won't it be weird when games like FF, Crono Trigger, Longest Journey, and others are considered classical art? If I'm still alive, I'd probably crap my pants as soon as I heard someone refer to games I played as a child as such. Oh, it'll happen, it's merely a matter of time.
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2007 9:33PM (Unverified) said

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Might just crap your pants anyway... ya know from old age :)
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2007 9:24PM (Unverified) said

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Sounds like Ebert is clinging pretty hard to a No True Scotsman fallacy. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_scotsman ) Like someone else said, what happens when a game comes out that is unequivocally high art? Then I suppose it won't be -true- high art.

An argument can be made that no game has yet achieved that level, depending on your definition of high art (which is problematic itself, since it can be pretty much whatever you want it to be). But his reasoning for why it can -never- happen makes absolutely no sense. Saying games can't be art because they're interactive is like saying movies can't be art because they use moving imagery -- there's just no connection between the premise and the conclusion. As a professional critic, Ebert should be the first one to realize there's a level of influence from the "reader" on every single medium. A piece of art is meaningless without an observer -- it only comes to life in the space between the artist's vision and the viewer's mind, where it's colored with the viewer's own experiences and interpretation. Everyone sees a single work slightly differently, yet no one doubts that the objective work is still art. Is that really so different from interactive games?

I can also argue that the interactive nature of games -adds- to their artistic value rather than detracts from it. Art is about instilling emotion, and games have a broader emotional palette to work from than any other medium. Games are the -only- art form that can evoke pride in a person, for instance, or guilt. The blend of these is part of what makes something like Shadow of the Colossus so compelling, I think.
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2007 9:35PM bm111 said

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Fully agreed, especially on the part where any work of art is partially interpreted by the viewer.

I've made this argument before: if Ebert doesn't think games can be art because the experience is too heavily subject to change... then what about books?

One of the -very reasons- the written medium is often preferred by its proponents, is the fact that what a person or a place may look, sound or feel like, is so up to the reader's interpretation.

I'd go so far as saying videogame developers have -more- control over the player's experience than book authors do over their readers'.

Your No True Scotsman comparison is right on the money. :)
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2007 9:30PM (Unverified) said

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The question is more, do you wanna be a artsy fartsy douchebag gushing over stuff you think is art because someone told you it was? Or do you want to enjoy something that you may remember and play the rest of your life.

Vidjo games have their place as art. Ico was so beautiful that lots of times I'd forget it was a game and I would go, "Wow look at that" and try to toggle to see another beautiful part of the castle. Same with Shadow of the Colossus.

Just like all art, what someone deems trash another deems it as art. It's been the case for centuries, why would it stop now. Ebert is way out of his field of study when he chatters about video games.

It seems though that having an opinion about them is a popular thing lately, riding on the coat-tails of more opinionated douchewads like Jack Thompson.

Just think of it like this:
High Art = Van Gough
Medium Art = Van Gough in a video game
Low Art = Van Gough tattooed on your ass
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2007 9:32PM (Unverified) said

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First-What experience with video games does he base this argument on?
Second-If it's not art why do so many artists work on video games to make them?

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Posted: Jul 23rd 2007 9:32PM Negativecool said

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To Ebert:

And your contribution to society is...what?
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2007 9:36PM (Unverified) said

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To sum it up.

Ebert is mad because he is going senile, his genre is changing, nobody listens to him anymore, his partner croaked and they put him with this new idiot.
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2007 9:49PM (Unverified) said

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Thank god he cleared this up. I think think that yes, games can be art (such as SotC, pictured above), but they are not on the level as say the Sistine Chapel or Guernica. Games probably will never reach "high art" status because developers make games to make money, and to make money, a game needs to appeal to a mass audience. Artsy games don't tend to do well, like with Psychonauts or Okami. They're probably two games that come closest to "high art" (though still very far off), but they didn't do so well. Maybe that Bob Ross game will change things?
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Posted: Jul 24th 2007 10:59PM (Unverified) said

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Motive doesn't determine art. Bach, Mozart, etc., wrote their music for the money, and they wrote what they did because the fine folks in the audience would pay for it. To reference one of your examples, the Sistine Chapel's ceiling was painted because the Pope paid Good Ol' Mikey to do it. While there is art created without a want for fame or fortune to come from it, that doesn't mean that a desire for compensation renders it incapable of being worthwhile.
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2007 10:11PM (Unverified) said

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ebert is a fat fuck that wouldn't know a good time if it shot him in the face
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2007 11:13PM Negativecool said

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lolollollerblades!!
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