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Reader Comments (71)

Posted: Jul 23rd 2007 10:29PM chispito said

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It almost sounds like he has never even played Tetris.

Posted: Jul 23rd 2007 10:41PM pukegreenuniform said

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Sure you can play a game how you want, but it isn't far from the idea that while reading a book you can reach different understandings or have a different picture in your head than someone else. Everyone experiences art differently. Maybe you could even stretch that the player can become the artist. In a game like oblivion I can end a quest how I want. In some ways games are deeper than other art forms in that every time you look at it you can experience it differently.
Btw the arguement that movies of low quality are not art is no different than saying madden isn't art. So If you think there are some artistic games than there are some artistic movies.
Mr. Ebert should at least except that elements of games can be high art like music, story, design, or graphical style. My 3 cents.

Posted: Jul 23rd 2007 10:42PM (Unverified) said

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Roger Ebert needs to go back to reviewing movies. We don't need his comments on something he doesn't know anything about.

And he needs to kick Richard Roeper's ass. Ebert just pissed me off with his gaming comment. Roeper pisses me off every time I look at him.

Posted: Jul 23rd 2007 11:29PM (Unverified) said

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Ebert has a point in the fact that game stories are generally not very good. But they are forced to be this way because we need to have something to fight and games that do have a big storyline and incredibly long cutscenes don't interest us because we spend too long out of the action so the storylines become as dry and as cliche as action movies or horror movies. However there are many games that can be considered high art because their storylines aren't as dry or cliche, these include Okami, FFVII, MGS, Ico, .etc. What games need to become High Art is our Shakespeare, someone to deliver original and compelling storylines and still keep it a game.

Posted: Jul 23rd 2007 11:36PM (Unverified) said

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I share Bill Watterson's (of Calvin and Hobbes) opinion that "high art" is defined by the piece itself, and not by its medium.

Another interesting thing is that in the whole "video games as an artform" debate, everybody seems to focus only on the storylines and artwork of games. I think that the gameplay itself can be an artform. For example, think about a Zelda dungeon. Imagine how much creativity it must have taken to come up with all those different puzzles, and lay them out so all works (ie, you can't get to the boss key and boss room without having to do anything else). IMO that qualifies as art.

Posted: Jul 23rd 2007 11:56PM Monkeydog said

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I pretty much agree with Ebert here.

The difference between how he is saying everything, and how everyone here would say it, is he's an outsider, and we will all defend video games, because we like them. Sure, video games are an art, but nowhere close has any game gotten to being a "high art" as Ebert says. Do to, he's right, it's like a sport, and the developers of video games just do it for money. Sure, there are games that are made just to be a game, and they are more artistic than others, but no matter what it is still closer to a sport than it will ever be art. It's like saying Chess is a fine art, it really isn't, it is a game.
The art Ebert is talking about, doesn't change, is not meant for any entertainment value, but for moral and appreciation value. It's universally accepted, for the most part, on what he is referring to as a high art. Maybe one day, a game will come out that will have the possibility to be something classic, a true art, but I will doubt it will be much of a game.
Personally, I have never felt in a video game from what I have felt from the last Harry Potter book and Children of Men. Video games just have not been able to exemplify that type of maturity yet, and as long as they're games, they won't be able to.

Posted: Jul 24th 2007 12:39AM (Unverified) said

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People should really read the article before they start throwing out arguments.

"I tirelessly quote Pauline Kael: The movies are so rarely great art, that if we cannot appreciate great trash, we have no reason to go. I admired "Spiderman II," "Superman," and many of the "Star Wars," Indiana Jones, James Bond and Harry Potter films. The idea, I think, is to value what is good at whatever level you find it. "Spiderman II" is one of the great comic superhero movies but it is not great art."

So stop saying "oh so Okami isn't art but Die Hard is?" because that isn't the argument he's making.

One of Ebert's arguments (that whole shakespeare rewrite thing) was that if the player has control to change, isn't he creating art, not experiencing it? So the counter-point offered was that creative design can make it so that the player doesn't actually have a choice. So my question is this: If you play a game where you choices don't affect anything, are you really playing a game, or watching a screen full of pretty colors?

Posted: Jul 24th 2007 1:50AM horngreen said

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Nothing is new and games more than anything prove that. I guess parts of a game can be art, it's look, design, sound but as far as storytelling goes HA! Video game stories are the weakest out there. The "plot" of Gears of War? The whole script would fit on a sheet of paper. Halo is much the same way except there are the books but then that would be cheating in this debate. Based solely on a games complete content I would have to agree with Ebert. Then again most movies I wouldn't consider art including all you dorks and your precious STAR WARS!

Posted: Jul 24th 2007 2:03AM teejaykay said

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In my opinion, the fallacy of Ebert's view of high art is his belief that it must be an objective and static experience. He ignores the fact that subjective and interactive experiences can be just as culturally enriching and thought-provoking, if not more so.

Ebert believes that video games can't be high art because they're interactive; that the player can affect the outcome. I don't see how this simple fact has anything to do with the definition of the term. If anything, the player's ability to become an artist, as Ebert puts it, would actually increase a game's potential to become high art.

I also can't help but wonder whether Ebert's little rule is intended to apply to other media as well. Some literary and cinematic masterpieces have portions that are purposely left ambiguous, encouraging readers to fill in details and come to their own conclusions about what takes place, which is essentially a form of interactivity. Does this disqualify these works from "high art" status too, or is Ebert's rule rather conveniently limited to video games?

Posted: Jul 24th 2007 2:26AM (Unverified) said

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art- Human effort to imitate, supplement, alter, or counteract the work of nature.


art-The conscious production or arrangement of sounds, colors, forms, movements, or other elements in a manner that affects the sense of beauty, specifically the production of the beautiful in a graphic or plastic medium.

This is a definition of art,so yes some games could games be considered "high art" as this idiot says.

Posted: Jul 24th 2007 3:30AM Greyze said

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i wouldnt consider a theatre to be higher art than a movie..

just because in theatre is in realtime while being watched unlike recorded with a camera doesnt mean its infact better.

a theatre (depending on the play) can only need a measily stage, 1-2 people to manage the stage, and a bunch of people acting.. that could be only 1 person doing the entire play or a bunch.

most plays (of course rehersals) are practiced for a few weeks to the best ones up to a few months.

whereas a Movies can take years to create.

you will have a MASSIVE cast and crew, check almost any film or decent you can watch credits and it required like 100-500 people, that already beats a 1 to 10 person theatre.

retakes are done OVER AND OVER, to perfection. yes theatre is done over for practice... but their skills will never compare to the acting done in the movies.

theatre only uses a bunch of silly props and various tools for tiny effects.

movie effects and props are spent from 100s thousands to millions of $.

thats just a few samples.. theres much more ways a movie can be better than a theatre.

i mean common.. the countrys best theatre would probibly re inact a shakespeare play. that wouldnt even cost 1000$ because its so limited. you will see a bunch of random people on stage saying lines from the old play with not much motion.

than a movie that spent millions creating and years of work.

i would DEFINITLY say that movies is much better art simply because there is SO much effort put into it to make it the best.

anyway thats my opinion, back on topic?

Yeah! fuck ebert hes a nubcake that dont know shit.

Posted: Jul 24th 2007 3:37AM (Unverified) said

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"They tend to involve (1) point and shoot in many variations and plotlines, (2) treasure or scavenger hunts, as in 'Myst,' and (3) player control of the outcome. I don't think these attributes have much to do with art; they have more in common with sports." - Some Fat Douchebag (erm, "Roger Ebert")

That's still a hell of a lot better than Ebert's favorite medium. Movies involve what? (1) Sitting on your ass, (2) staring at various plotlines, and (3) blinking. Well, ok...in Ebert's case I'll add (4) chugging down skittles and greasy popcorn.

It's pretty hard to take someone seriously when their biggest talents amount to spouting off opinions and, again, sitting on their ass.

Posted: Jul 24th 2007 5:15AM (Unverified) said

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Sports, art and interaction. I wrote a lengthy email on the subject, so I'll just post it here. I think it presents quite clearly my personal thoughts on the subject: (and yeah, it's a bit ranty, and a bit too long, but I hope my points come across)

Hello Mr. Ebert,

I have to disagree with you on quite a few points, really. Now, I can't really say I know who you are (a bad American movie reviewer? http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/19980522/REVIEWS/805220303/1023 ), so I don't really know why people seem to care about what you think. I mean, what part of being a movie reviewer gives a person authority on the merits of games as art? Thankfully, no part. But people still seem to care, so I feel compelled to write to you. Now, I do use an expletive at one point in this email, so sorry for that. In any case:

First of all, I'm inclined to call you a wannabe elitist fuck, for using the "oh, sure, they can be art.. just not _high_ art" -argument. You might wish to read Richard Shusterman's Pragmatist Aesthetics, to correct your stance on the definitions of art and "high art", since the latter does not exist and you seem to be lost on matters relating to the former.

In your mind, interaction makes games less art. So interactive art is not art? How about an installation - and let's say it's in an art gallery, so it fits into your concept of an elite defining what art is and choosing what to showcase - that you can walk through and into? That would be like a level in a game: there are places you can and can't go, and you see what the artist wanted you to see, though you are able to look at these things from a viewpoint of your own choosing (as long as it's a viewpoint the artist allowed when designing the piece).

Admittedly, games have more interaction than that. You can oftentimes influence the scenery in one way or another. And a mere walk-in installation isn't really a good example of what interactive art can be. So let's think about something like Prix Art Electronica's interactive category. The pieces they showcase aren't (always) that far from walk-in installations, but still not games, so you can probably agree with me that they are art. Who knows, they may even fit into your definition of high art.

Now, the purpose of interactive art is to form a dialogue between the piece and the participant. And I claim that in a good game, this is exactly what happens. A good game will make you care about the characters, their motivations and decisions and the outcomes that follow from these and yet, it can give the participant different options. You might wish to think about improvisational theatre, where the actors often interact with the audience. They may even exchange dialogue with the audience, which will have an effect on what happens on stage. Exactly like a game.

You believe that if you change the art, you become the artist. So by your definition, in an improvisational play, the audience member who interacts with the play becomes an artist. That's fine, since there are still numerous audience members to experience the art created. But I personally, and I would think many gamers would agree with this, think the participant can be both viewer and creator at the same time. This does not make an improvisational play - or games - become less art for the participant or player.

And through a few crossroads I get from improvisation to your comparison of games to sports. You see, even there, the line can blur. You probably consider dance - or ballet - high art. How about improvisational dance? It usually consists of moves and sets of moves, that the dancer strings together. I would compare this to sparring in martial arts - which I believe you would classify as sports. But in martial arts, you learn moves and sets of moves through katas or set sparring, which is exactly like dance or ballet with predetermined choreographies and which - to a person versed in martial arts - has a lot to give, the most important gift being more insight to how these moves work and how they can be used. And even moreso in actual sparring, where the techniques are actually applied in a competetive sense.

To me, martial arts are both sports and art, and I believe this principle can be applied to other sports - and to games. You learn different techniques, which you creatively apply and string together. You are an artist, and to a spectator, what they're seeing is art. And like I said before, a person can be both viewer and creator: they can enjoy the art they create as they are creating it.

I can not understand your idea of interaction making something less art. Why should art be passive? To me - and to many gamers - games are more like an ultimate form of art. They can combine beautiful compositions, extravagant visuals, inspiring stories and unprecedented interactive design to something more than merely the sum of their parts. And they can provide the tools for someone to create art inside art.

Posted: Jul 24th 2007 6:57AM (Unverified) said

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This guy doesn't know what he's talking about. If he took the bother to check out the work that went into Gears of War, he'd realise its very much art. In Zbrush, fully detailed sculptures were made for each character made up of millions of polygons. Its to a standard on par with the film industry. Sure, the machines used to run these games aren't yet up to the power to showcase all this detail, currently bump mapping is required as an alternative.

Another thing, take the time to take a look at the amount of concept art which goes into the production of video games. Again, as good as what's seen in the film industry. The concept artists for the film industry have also worked in the games industry e.g. Feng Zhu and Ryan Church. If their work isn't high art, I don't know what is.

As a game artist, I find his point of view insulting. Why isn't game art high art when a bunch of 2d primative shapes on a canvas is? They only cost so much purely because of the signature, just like designer clothing.

Do a google search for Linda Bergkvist, if her work isn't high art, no art of the 21st century is.

Posted: Jul 24th 2007 8:00AM sand0789 said

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That Ebert is so clever. The examples he uses are of the least artsy types of games. He essentially is focusing on the video game equivalents of "Rambo" and "Die Hard". What about Final Fantasy, Eternal Sonata, or Lost Odyssey coming out soon? Those are essentially movies extended by gameplay.

While I agree that there are some films, mostly shit ones, that are more "artsy" than most any game that I know about, the vast majority of films are not any more art than games. They just have higher quality acting and special effects.

Also, in most games the player does NOT control the outcome. If they do, it is controlling one of a few outcomes the developer has programmed in like alternate endings. And where the hell does it say that the user of an art cannot have any input or interaction with it?

Games can be art. Some of them very much are. Not all films or games are art.

Posted: Sep 18th 2007 7:40PM (Unverified) said

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"Those are essentially movies extended by gameplay."

That is EXACTLY the problem. If you consider a game to be art entirely for it's cinematics and storyline, you're not considering the game to be art at all. All you're doing is saying the storyline and cinematics are art.

Basically, what you just said proves the dilema of calling games art: most games that have moving storylines would in fact be more artful WITHOUT the gameplay. The gameplay mostly just gets in the way if the storyline and cinematics are artful and moving.

No game yet, that I have played anyway, has gameplay that I would consider to be art. Therefore, I don't think games are art. Games have aspects that are artful, but the one aspect of gaming that sets it apart from other mediums (the gameplay) is not art.

I think games would be more accurately described as "simulation" than art, personally.
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Posted: Jul 24th 2007 3:25PM Lemmiwinks said

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So, if I paint a picture and enter it into a contest/exhibition, that's a sport too?

Posted: Aug 3rd 2007 8:42AM (Unverified) said

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Absolute bollocks.
Of course video games can be art.
There's no such thing as "high art" just "antique art".
The problem seems to be that art critics and art historians who know very little about games want to make out that they're not developed artistically. That's not surprising - they'd look like idiots instead of experts if they admitted that games were art and then went on to say that they knew f*ck all about them.
I think that you'd be hard pressed to find someone who would argue that a composer was not a musical artist - so if someone composes for a video game then what does that make them?

Posted: Jul 29th 2007 1:55AM (Unverified) said

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Elbert is a movie critic... He does not know or understand games. That is like having a gamer do a review on buggy whips...

Posted: Sep 18th 2007 7:44PM (Unverified) said

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You charge Ebert with the name "elitest fuck" yet you seem inclined to assume the persona yourself with the high and mighty attitude I felt when reading this.

You may disagree with Ebert, but there's no reason to be a prick about it. I'm sure he gets plenty of hatemail as it is, there's no reason to add to the pile that's probably just going to be deleted anyway.

Posted: Sep 18th 2007 7:45PM (Unverified) said

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That was aimed at Hakobus, for some reason the reply didn't stick.

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