Bizarre clarifies DVD limitations remark

by Ross Miller { Aug 2nd 2007 at 11:58AM }

After recently commenting on the constraints of DVD, Project Gotham Racing 4 developer Bizarre Creations has a new post on their company website providing some clarification as to their opinion of ye olde disc format.

Citing the much larger number of environments (10 in PGR4, vs. five in PGR3), the article lauds the new lighting system over having two "fixed" times of day (and therefore two sets of textures). "DVD size is absolutely not [their emphasis] a factor that we consider when designing our games ... and PGR4 is no exception. DVD9 gives us more than we need to create a fabulous experience for you guys," it said, later adding, "we've never had to cut content to fit on the disc, and we probably never will." Maybe it wasn't cut, but we're pretty sure they would've planned for more environments on a larger disc.

The original comment, which sparked the discussion, was, "Whilst this wasn't a problem for our dev team, it was a problem fitting all this data onto a single DVD." While we applaud the ingenuity of a new lighting system, they did say the data for two textures could not fit.

Should the extra content situation ever arise, we're sure they could make it downloadable on Xbox Live, possibly for a fee. Bizarre's biggest concern right now should be including a new Geometry Wars onto the disc -- if it's not there, there's going to be heck to pay. Heck, I tell you.

Tags: bizarre, dvd, pgr4, projectgothamracing4

Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)

Hard Gay @ Aug 2nd 2007 12:04PM

It sure seems that Microsoft must have visited the developers and gone Steinbrenner on them. Spin control....pure and simple.

More space is ALLWAYS a good thing otherwise we would still be using floppy's from an IBM PC.

Spin control.....wwwwwwwwhhhhhhhhhooooooooooooo

mr nimblewick @ Aug 2nd 2007 12:09PM

Is that where my "floppy's" came from?

Digi Smalls @ Aug 2nd 2007 1:34PM

this from a guy who quotes sony press releases like it was the bible.

FraGNeM @ Jun 15th 2009 11:46AM

The point you're missing is that nothing is free.

You can't just magically increase storage size without increased cost, decreased read speeds, removal of other components, potentially higher failure rates from newer technology, etc.

To stick within MS's planned console price, they had to decide against HD-DVD, and while small comments like these seem to point out a problem with DVD storage space, these problems wouldn't compare with the ones MS would have to deal with on half the RAM, more expensive pricing, greater production problems causing even smaller available stock (critical around launch time), and other unforeseen consequences.

I'm betting history will show, all factors considered, that Microsoft made the right decision.

MooseMuffin @ Aug 2nd 2007 12:07PM

I 2nd the geometry wars thing. No new geo wars means no PGR4 for me.

cc123 @ Aug 2nd 2007 12:09PM

Wow damage control in full effect.

cc123 @ Aug 2nd 2007 12:16PM

Also this right here is the reason we never hear about disc size limitations. It's a big PR no-no and I'm sure the person that originally said it got reprimanded for telling the truth.

What we got the other day was a very rare glimpse into a developers honest opinion of the disc media. What we have in this post is the PR spin version of it. Amazing how the two are similar yet lead to completely different conclusions for the reader.

Curmeo @ Aug 2nd 2007 12:15PM

yup, Bizarre's "clarification" is a result of Microft Game Studios getting pissed at their earlier statement, in which they clearly admitted "Whilst this wasn't a problem for our dev team, it was a problem fitting all this data onto a single DVD." damage control in full effect indeed.

mr nimblewick @ Aug 2nd 2007 12:21PM

Or maybe the developer themselves just didn't want their customers to think they were getting short-changed. It's bad to say, "yeah, we had more stuff we wanted to do with the game, but we didn't."

mr nimblewick @ Aug 2nd 2007 12:21PM

Or maybe the developer themselves just didn't want their customers to think they were getting short-changed. It's bad to say, "yeah, we had more stuff we wanted to do with the game, but we didn't."

Digi Smalls @ Aug 2nd 2007 1:38PM

this coming from a guy who swears by sony's press releases, except those aren't damage control, no, those are the truth.

Radicoon @ Aug 2nd 2007 12:17PM

It's just a double-edged sword: put out a console without an expensive optical drive, and you get cheap media with problems of storage down the road. Put out a console with an expensive optical drive and media, and you gain storage but alienate consumers with a much higher price.

Silver R. Wolfe @ Aug 2nd 2007 1:00PM

Furry, lol! :D

Spartacus @ Aug 2nd 2007 12:20PM

I'm just curious how Oblivion managed to have night and day effects while PGR4 cannot. It seems that it was simply a decision of the dev team to NOT use dynamic lighting techniques but rather create "lit" tectures, therefore needing to rework the tectures for each time of day. This isn't a limitation of the DVD9 as much as a limitation of not using dynamic lighting.

But I must say that I'm not upset. I loved PGR3 to death, but I never used the night mode. It was just so much prettier in daylight!

Spartacus @ Aug 2nd 2007 12:23PM

So how did Oblivion have day and night effects?

Seems this isn't a limitation of the DVD9 format as much as it was just a limitation due to the dev's design choices (by not using dynamic lighting).

Either way I'm not upset. I loved PGR3 and NEVER used the night mode... It's just so much prettier in daylight!

brokenscope @ Aug 2nd 2007 12:43PM

It had full dynamic lighting? No static lighting unlike some of the racing games out there.

Spartacus @ Aug 2nd 2007 12:24PM

Grrrrr... After 2 refreshes it seemed that joystiq had eaten my comment, so I rewrote it- only to see the old one posted... Sorry about that.

mr nimblewick @ Aug 2nd 2007 12:25PM

Same just happened to me.

Fred Willard @ Aug 2nd 2007 5:14PM

::ALERT:: ::ALERT:: ::SPIN CONTROL NOW IN FULL EFFECT:: ::PLEASE STAND BY::

fffunfarm06---xbl @ Aug 2nd 2007 12:26PM

yall are not complaining that you wish the xbox had a hd-dvd drive are you? so you want a 600 dollar xbox?

well i think we will all be happy in 3 more years when the new microsoft game system comes out.
im sure they'll use there hd-dvds and games will look awesome.
dvds are the cheapest thing.

bearattack79 @ Aug 2nd 2007 12:38PM

Well that may be true, but what if in the next 3 years HD-DVD flops. It would be interesting to see if Microsoft will put in a blue-ray drive.

SharpBlade @ Aug 2nd 2007 8:22PM

This was not spin control.. The original comment was from a forum post and should of never made headlines in the first place. Who would you believe a forum post or a official statement from the company? Of course Sony PS3tards are going to continue to wave their Blu-ray flag around while their games get crap scores and look no better than anything on DVD9.

Charron @ Aug 2nd 2007 12:35PM

I would believe a forum post made by someone who's developing the game over a release by a PR machine. But that's just me.

cc123 @ Aug 2nd 2007 12:36PM

The original comment was from a Bizarre staff member. You should go back and reread it.

Hard Gay @ Aug 2nd 2007 12:38PM

Saysaysay....Hard Gays says you got owned.....
put in your place...wwwhhhhhhhhoooooo

razer @ Aug 2nd 2007 2:43PM

Did you read the original post? That was NOT a member of the dev team.

Mr Intel @ Aug 2nd 2007 12:38PM

so in other words the stuff that couldn't fit it will appear as downloaded content that you'll have to pay for.

so if more disk space was available the extra stuff would be included and M$ couldn't make more money on downloaded content

thats why DVD9 is more than enough

DeadPlasmaCell @ Aug 2nd 2007 12:41PM

I'm probably out of line on this, but since when did you need two different textures for a lighting effect? Also I'd take lack of day/night change over some of the load times that are on some PS3 games.. like MotorStorm.. It really takes you out of the game when you have to wait like 3 minutes for the next track to load or even when you're selecting a rider, it takes like 25 seconds to load the next character.

borland502 @ Aug 2nd 2007 1:12PM

I suspect the delay times in Motorstorm are the result of programming choices. I've played a great many good games on my PS2, but the load times for Magna Carta were atrocious. The Motorstorm devs could have done better if they had made a point of it.

As for space, the argument should not be "is it useful?" Of course it's useful to have more space. I thought I'd never fill up my 1GB HD in 1995. Six months later, it was full thanks to the Internet. (don't ask)

The only question is if space is necessary balanced against the cost. I'd love a 1TB drive over a 160GB drive, but the cost is prohibitive. If 50GB is available over 9GB, then it will be used in the future if not now. This is even more relevant when considering data over movies.

But the PS3 will be more expensive than the xbox at any point. So it is a risk taken in hopes that space will prove critical within the next year or two. Plus, while the 10year plan might be optimistic, Sony does tend to think longer term.

Jake @ Aug 2nd 2007 1:51PM

Ah, but you are wrong on one thing. The PS3 will always be more expensive. Yes. It is banking on the HD format making a serious difference in gaming. Not necessarily. Think movies.

Bluray is an obvious advantage, but its cost and delay it brought will likely hurt the PS3 as a gaming machine in the long run. However, if bluray wins because of the PS3, then Sony 100% made the right decision.

You know, it is possible that MS and Sony both made the "right" decision, even though they chose the opposite thing.

BNinjaC @ Aug 2nd 2007 12:42PM

For all the arguments against PS3 and wii, at least the companies behind them matched the machine specs to their goals i.e. HD gaming = HD optical Drive, Non-HD gaming = DVD drive.

MS where very short-sighted in the rush to launch before the other two.

/my two cents

bearattack79 @ Aug 2nd 2007 12:45PM

How does the Wii fit into that comment?

BNinjaC @ Aug 2nd 2007 12:46PM

Non-HD gaming = DVD drive.

Jake @ Aug 2nd 2007 12:54PM

Where does PC fit into your analysis?

BNinjaC @ Aug 2nd 2007 1:04PM

The game is installed onto PC HDD and the CD/DVD is just used for a piracy check. Most of the time.

If MS decide to allow devs to HDD install then they bypass this issue completely.

Vidikron @ Aug 2nd 2007 1:07PM

@Jake

The obvious difference with PC being the install procedure. Quite a few games come on multiple discs these days, but it's not a problem due to installs.

Vidikron @ Aug 2nd 2007 1:10PM

Although I should add that I don't really agree with BNinjaC's analysis. Clearly HD games can be made on DVD. The 360 and PC have tons of them. It just limits texture usage, forces audio and video compression, etc...

jsn @ Aug 2nd 2007 12:45PM

Deadplasmacell:

You're right, you don't need two texture sets. Having two texture sets would be stupid and would be an outdated way of doing things. So while two texture sets might not have fit on one DVD, that never should have been an option in modern game design. If your textures are good in the first place, the lighting can do all the rest.

bearattack79 @ Aug 2nd 2007 12:48PM

All the 360 "games" Ive played are in HD. I didnt have to purchace any cables to access HD content.

Josh @ Aug 2nd 2007 12:49PM

"Maybe it wasn't cut, but we're pretty sure they would've planned for more environments on a larger disc."

And then the game wouldn't be coming out in a few weeks, either. Time to market is a big deal.

bearattack79 @ Aug 2nd 2007 12:54PM

BNinjaC

OK I re-read your post, sorry. I see where the Wii fits into your comment.

But the 360 has proven that HD Gaming does not need an HD optical drive. Go look at the shelf.

BNinjaC @ Aug 2nd 2007 1:15PM

I get your point about the Sony cables.

What the issue boils down to is this; will 360 devs have to limit their game designs to match the limitation of last gen optical media?

It's not a question that can be answered by one devs loose lips but it's an still interesting topic. If for nothing else than the flaming ;)

J.Goodwin @ Aug 2nd 2007 12:57PM

The whole BluRay:Sony::HDDVD:Microsoft thing is nuts.

Microsoft was involved in the development of both formats, and they support both of them in Windows.

Prior to the PS3's release, subsequent dearth of games, and the rise of BluRay movies as an alternative excuse for paying $600 for what amounts to a gaming doorstop, there were plenty of arguments that indicated that HDDVD might be the dominant format:

1. The format launched earlier
2. Playback equipment was less expensive
3. Replication of HDDVD media could be done in existing DVD production facilities without massive and expensive overhauls of production lines and equipment like BluRay
4. HDDVD's scripting system was in place, formalized, and in general use before the Java based system on BluRay even worked.
5. Flipper HDDVD discs that include DVD content on one side or even DVD content on a separate layer on the same side of the disc are possible and in some cases implemented.
6. HDDVD media is cheaper to produce and typically the movies retail at a lower price than BluRay discs.

HDDVD's main failing is that Sony owns about 1/3 of all of the movie content that currently exists. They're the 1000 pound gorilla of the entertainment business. Naturally, that content is going to go to BluRay, so if you want any of it, you have to own a BluRay compatible player unless Sony abandons the format entirely.

Sony didn't have that dominance in the movie marketplace during the Beta/VHS debacle, which is a key factor in why they failed at that time.

The real irony here is that Sony is doing exactly what Microsoft had long been accused of doing: they're engaged in activities where they use their market dominance in one industry to establish market dominance in another industry. That's a classic anti-trust violation, and most likely they'll never receive even a slap on the wrist for it.

Why an HDDVD player for 360? All the reasons stated above, primarily component pricing, media pricing, and the 360's existing excellent decompression of VC-1 content which was already being used for the video marketplace and games.

There's nothing that stops Microsoft from releasing a BluRay attachment or even a revised dual-format player in the future. That isn't true for Sony, which is fully entrenched as a corporation in the BluRay format, and requires it to be the sole viable format to keep their home media divisions spinning on massive royalties and higher media pricing.

Meanwhile, BluRay's supposed studio dominance is being revealed as a sham on a monthly basis as video marketplace expands it's portfolio, cutting out the physical media middleman.

Kevlar @ Aug 2nd 2007 1:05PM

:blink:

That was a lot of text. Good point though, and I agree. To summarize: HDDVD is fairly decent, BluRay is going nowhere, Sony sux, and download movie services will kick their asses anyways.

Vidikron @ Aug 2nd 2007 1:18PM

You were doing so well till that last part. Digitial delivery is NOT ready to replace physical media at this point. A lot of people want to own movies, not just rent. And even if MS starts offering movies for purchase, where are you going to store it? There simply isn't enough room on the 360's hard drives to store a large collection of HD movies. Delivery is also an issue. Until every person that watches movies has internet connections big enough to allow them to start watching HD movies in the time it would take for them to grab a disc off the shelf there will be a place for physical media. Then you have the fact that people like to share and loan out movies to friends. Can't do that with digital delivery either. I think we'll eventually get to digital delivery at the primary method, but not yet.

why not the LS2/LS7? @ Aug 2nd 2007 1:24PM

J. Goodwin:
Almost none of that stuff is accurate.

HD-DVD replication with DVD equipment was going to be possible when HD-DVD was going to use a chirped red laser. But that didn't give them enough storage, so they switched to a blue laser like BluRay. At that point, they both had essentially the same production constraints. You can use existing facilities if you replace some of the equipment.

The playback equipment for HD-DVD is not cheaper than BluRay, when HD-DVD switch to blue lasers, the equipment specs became nearly identical.

HD-DVD discs are slightly cheaper to produce if you compare single layer HD-DVD to single layer BluRay. However, most HD-DVDs are dual layer because 15GB isn't enough. A large percentage of BluRays are still single layer, and a single later BluRay is cheaper to make than a dual-layer HD-DVD. However, really neither is particularly expensive, both cost under a buck (and dual layer BD too), not a big factor in the price of a $35 movie.

Flippie BluRays are possible (BluRay on one side, DVD on the other), just like flippie HD-DVDs (HD-DVD on one side, DVD on the other). In fact, Warner developers a disc that has HD-DVD on one side and BluRay on the other! These combos are all on the wane because the increase the price of the disc. And (to counter another of your points), the average price of a BluRay disc is lower than an HD-DVD because many HD-DVDs are combo discs and combo discs cost $5 at retail.

I don't know where your comments about Sony slinging their weight around come from. All major studios except one support BluRay, that's why BluRay is winning. It's the force of the majority on BluRay's side, and a push by one major studio (Universal) for HD-DVD.

BluRay has many hardware backers. Sony, Pioneer, Samsung (who seems to support both now), etc. HD-DVD has one hardware backer: Toshiba.
BluRay has studio support from every major studio except one, including two exclusive studios (Sony and Fox). HD-DVD has studio support from several major studios, including one exclusive (Universal), but lacks at least two of the major studios. 9 out of the 10 top grossing movies of the last 3 years are available on BluRay (some years 10/10). Less than 1/3rd of them are available on HD-DVD.

That's why BluRay is winning, not because Sony is forcing it down people's throats.

gullum @ Aug 2nd 2007 1:27PM

Wow way to stick up for your good buddy Microsoft. I'm sure they appreciate your carefully worded PR spin. Its now clear to me from your post that MS just wants to save us money and deliver the best hardware they possibly can.

borland502 @ Aug 2nd 2007 1:40PM

I have to agree with Vidikron; you made some good arguments up until the last paragraph. The Marketplace is expanding its portfolio, but in its present divx-like incarnation the service is just a console-specific pay per view.

Were Sony to provide their own dlc service, I'd still use Netflix as my primary service for HD content. I prefer their rental model to the marketplace one. Ordinary folks with HD tend to be content with cable or satellite.

And I agree that DLC has a bright future, but that future is not now. Audio has taken off, but the necessary bandwidth is lighter. And the issues with DRM and portability are 10x worse with DLC. You are witnessing the beginnings of DLC's rule, but it still has much further to go than HD-DVD or Blu-Ray.

I suspect that physical media still has this generation.

J.Goodwin @ Aug 2nd 2007 1:42PM

LS2:

How many of your counterpoints were valid in 2005, let alone 2004 though?

Many things have happened to change the scenario in the last 12 to 18 months. However, I am personally convinced that Sony's market dominance in the movie industry is a significant part of what lead other studios to support BluRay in the first place.

It's a follow-the-leader pack mentality. Most of the studios looked around, saw that the biggest studio was going that way, and followed suit.

As to replication facilities, until very recently (there is a fourth starting up in Taiwan that is not Sony owned) there were three in the world for BluRay, all owned by Sony. There are eight HDDVD facilities in Europe alone.

Even with the change in the laser format, you can still press regular DVDs on the same lines that you've upgraded to HDVD replication now, which you cannot do with BluRay, so the opportunity cost of investing in equipment that you're going to have smaller runs on for the foreseeable future (DVD keeps going strong), and which might become totally useless if your format loses out is more limited for HDDVD than it is for BluRay for the independent replicators.

Have you shopped for an HD player? You can get a Toshiba HD-A2 for under $250 on Amazon now. The lowest priced BluRay player still MSRPs for $500, and is streeting for not much less than that.