Bizarre clarifies DVD limitations remark

Am I just daft, or has no game been released as dual sided?

I mean, all games that have been released thus far have the one side for the game, and the other side for the label. You can't have one side be a label AND contain information right?

So there is a whole other side of the DVD9s that hasn't been tapped into yet. Right? Or, as I said before, am I just daft?

A few points I'd like to make, and they are pretty good ones.

The original post that started this stated that they worked around the problem of not having room to recreate every texture in the whole game by adding different weather conditions. Taken literally, weather was a result of a lack of space.

To build on that point, it isn't like the dev team just quit working for 3 months if/when they ran out of space. They were still using every possible resource to make this game as good as possible. So while that doesn't 100% make up for a lack of night courses, the manpower was used elsewhere and will certainly have a positive impact on the game elsewhere, like weather in this case. It isn't a 100% loss of something. You still want the dev to do whatever they want with ample space, but they aren't going to circle jerk if they run out of space either. My point being that anything that gets left out is not 100% lost because work is getting put into the game elsewhere.

This game has double the tracks, multiple weather conditions, and motorcycles over PGR3, which was a solid racing game. It will be better than any high capacity storage disc racing game this fall, due mainly to the small userbase and year delay stemming from Sony's choice to push an HD format through their console.

Be careful what you wish for. Everyone wants more space. I want more space on the discs. More space in itself is a great thing. However, I don't want to pay an extra $150 for my 360 to have an HD-DVD drive.

If they were going to jack the price that much, I'd much rather have an extra Gb of RAM and a slightly more powerful CPU and/or GPU built into the console. Maybe even an HDD boost. You can do a lot of crazy shit for the same cost as an HD drive (even more for the cost of a Bluray drive). Keep that in mind as well.

Nobody in their right mind will say there is zero need for more capacity. It absolutely is an advantage, just like RAM or shaders or anything else. But it isn't absolutely critical, either. It isn't like 360 games won't get any better from now on and PS3 games will suddenly get awesome somehow. And unless you want HD movies, there is no way that the HD drive is worth it to gaming. Devs could do a lot more with extra RAM, HDD, CPU, GPU, etc. Take your pick. I mean, devs are being held back by the RAM, CPU, and GPU of the 360 as well.

Hell, put in two DVD drives, release everything on two discs, cut load speed in half, and have enough to throw an extra gig of RAM in there. Now that would make everyone happy. Disc space up, RAM up, and load speed up. Nobody could argue that, right? Well, except the lameness of two drive games.

Oh yeah, and Mass Effect is f-ing bigger than anything on bluray. Lets stop being so presumptuous until something hits the PS3 that makes you go "holy shit you NEED bluray". Just put that in there because Vid loves that argument. Should get him a fumin'.

I'm surprised by the number of people who actually see this as what it is; PR stepping in to redirect the statement previously made, without really denying what was said. I'd figure we'd have a lot more fanboy reactions.

While their lighting/weather system is a beauty for sure, the need for different textures is apparent from looking at the windows and signs in the city; while they could do that with just lighting alone, that would be a hell of a lot of independent light sources and techniques all being rendered and interacting in real-time. It's not happening on that scale this generation.
There's more to a night-scene than just the overall lighting conditions, and as good as the game looks in it's different scenes, that becomes apparent in all of the city-based tracks.

The point you're missing is that nothing is free.

You can't just magically increase storage size without increased cost, decreased read speeds, removal of other components, potentially higher failure rates from newer technology, etc.

To stick within MS's planned console price, they had to decide against HD-DVD, and while small comments like these seem to point out a problem with DVD storage space, these problems wouldn't compare with the ones MS would have to deal with on half the RAM, more expensive pricing, greater production problems causing even smaller available stock (critical around launch time), and other unforeseen consequences.

I'm betting history will show, all factors considered, that Microsoft made the right decision.

BC,

My guess is that 360 devs more have to limit their design to the size of the budget they have for a game than anything else. That is number one.

In addition, they have to limit it to the RAM, CPU, and GPU, and yes disc size offered by the platform.

You can look on the shelves and find that devs right now are limited more by budget than anything. This gen's games are the same size and length as last gen, yet cost more to make and sell to a smaller userbase.

If you had 100 million PS3 users, you may be able to make a really massive game (by more than textures and audio). But to ask devs to make a game significantly larger and better than 360 devs are making on the system with better tools and a larger userbase is definately a tall order. The proof is sitting on game shelves.

High capacity storage is a definate advantage, but I have yet to really see a $150 example of it. Once I do, I'll be buying the PS3. Didja hear that Sony?

If bluray wins, Sony made the right decision too.

http://www.joystiq.com/2007/07/30/bizarre-confirms-pgr4s-cities-comments-on-dvd-constraints/
http://kotaku.com/gaming/xbox-360/bizarre-disappointed-with-rushed-pgr3-vow-no-pgr4-before-its-time-280935.php

yes i completely understand now...ms totally f this one up.

I'd just like to point out that the most graphic intense game on the near horizon is coming out for the PC, not the PS3 or 360 and it's called Crysis.

I'd also like to point out that it looks to be shipping on a single DVD9 disc.

I agree with Jake, blu-ray is cost prohibitive both for consumers AND developers at this point in time. It adds $200 to the entry price of console gaming and for developers it requires finances directly proportional to the amount of GB they create to fill that potential space. Devs can't just add 10GB of extra content to a game for free. A triple A title with 20GB of content would cost double of what the dev would've spent on a 9GB game. The problem is that there are multiple systems that support a 9GB game (any console that has a DVD drive) while ONLY the PS3 has the capability to play a game with 20GB of content and has a VERY limited user base right now. So for a dev to spend twice the amount on a game for a system that only has a few million users, it can be very difficult to be profitable. Whereas a game on DVD9 costs half to make and has twice the consumer base (roughly, only counting new gen systems).

Anyway, all that said to say this:

HD media isn't needed for great games, better programming is.

WOW Does this bring out the Fangurls or what!

All I have to say is: OWNED!

I have another theory: DVD's size limitation is an excuse to save money on producing fewing textures.

Instead of having an artist hand-shade multiple versions of every texture for day and night, they use a computer-generated lighting model. They exchanged a lot of artist man-hours of work, for a few programmer hours to add same shaders. It sounds more like a cost-saving measure than a technology issue!

Rofl @ Microsoft.

Bizarre's point can and should be summed up as simply this: If you're an artist, you make beautiful art with whatever canvas you have.

Picasso makes a masterpiece on a napkin. Sure there's a nice big canvas out there with 40 times the room to create, but if it's Picasso, who cares? It's still a masterpiece. Some other artists have all the canvas in the world and can't make a thing worth looking at.

MAKE.
THE.
FUCKING.
HARD.
DRIVE.
MANDATORY.