Heavenly Sword producer defends against Itagaki's jabs
by Ludwig Kietzmann 
{ Aug 6th 2007 at 3:55PM }
Oh no he didn't news now, with Team Ninja's tough-talking Tomonobu Itagaki expressing his thoughts on Heavenly Sword, September's highly anticipated PS3 kill-em-up from Ninja Theory. It seems the interactive cutscenes and corresponding button prompts didn't sit too well with the drinking designer. "I've never played a good game where the developers put a big icon of the button you're supposed to press onscreen," he told EGM (via CVG). "I look at Heavenly Sword and it seems really half-assed, because it's asking you to do all these button-timing sequences but you are not getting much payoff from it." Itagaki has every right to feel robbed -- if he's never played a good game like that, we can only conclude that he's never experienced Shenmue, Resident Evil 4, God of War or Tomb Raider: Anniversary. He's probably played Dragon's Lair though.
Not content with leaving the battle of "Ninja" developers without a fight, Heavenly Sword producer Kyle Shubel courteously defended the game's interactive events, noting that the feats accomplished in them would be frustrating to pull off on your own. "My response to Mr. Itagaki would be that the intent of the Hero sequences is to empower the player to experience events that would be nearly impossible to play in a natural platforming state... for example, making the player run down ropes, leaping from rope to rope as they're being cut from underneath you, all while dodging other objects - that would be a frustrating experience to 99 percent of our users if we were to force them to do that manually."
We'll find out next month if Heavenly Sword is a fully-assed answer to Itagaki's thrice-released Ninja Gaiden.
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Shagittarius @ Aug 6th 2007 3:59PM
I agree with Itagaki,
Not only is that style of Simon says gameplay really a lazy excuse for gameplay but defending it only makes it look worse.
It was lame in tomb raider, it was lame in god of war, its lame in Heavenly Sword, and its gonna be lame in anything else that uses it in the future.
If you were a real game designer you woulda figured out how to add that level of interaction in a truely interactive manner that existed in the regular gameplay.
But why bother when you can play simon says.
ZenGaijin @ Aug 6th 2007 4:15PM
I dunno I always thought God of War always used it rather well. Now, rather than show you a lengthy cutscene in which you have 0 interaction (Ninja Gaiden has these as well) these short sequences make you get off your ass and do something. Games are such because they are interactive without input they are movies.
Its funny in my opinion Itagaki has made one game worthy of praise and hes released it 3 times now I wouldn't take his words to harshly. I mean he released 2 xtreme beach volleyball titles and keeps cranking out that at best subpar fighter of his (my opinion this is). And now he struts around like hes the cock (rooster) of the walk.
bak8807 @ Aug 6th 2007 4:51PM
What's funny to me is that people keep bringing up DOA and DOAX as if they're bad games. If you like your fighting games complex to the point that most normal people can't enjoy them, that's fine, but don't diss DOA. It single handled kept the Xbox afloat in Japan. As far as DOAX, that's just fanservice for, you know, THE FANS. He doesn't care what the non-fans think of it.
Now if we were to talk action games, Itagaki helped create what is arguably the most acclaimed action game of the new millenium. And that was his first attempt at the genre. I think the guy deserves more respect than someone who has "Kung-Fu Chaos" under his belt. For the record, I don't think Heavenly Sword is a terrible game, but it's anywhere NEAR the Ninja Gaiden level of quality. Just wait until Itagaki shows NG2, and you will see what next-gen action is about. Certainly not pressing X when the screen tells you to.
Frowelishnu @ Aug 6th 2007 5:22PM
It can be a lazy excuse for gameplay, but sometimes it adds to the game.
I hate when it's game over if you can't get it right (RE4), but I really liked being punished for getting it wrong and really rewarded for getting it right (Indigo Prophecy).
More games should have sequences like that.
shawnpfiore @ Aug 6th 2007 7:46PM
Your stupid, go play your Wii.
rfom @ Aug 7th 2007 1:45PM
I would differ..the lamest game was actually Ninja Gaiden Sigma. I dont want games that make me feel like I am in office completing some tough assignment, just to call myself a hardcore gamer. I want games that help me relax.
Brad Lee @ Aug 9th 2007 8:15PM
I agree as well.
I didn't mind it so much in RE4, at certain points anyway. Actually, come to think of it, I didn't like it. The reason being is that most of the time I died was from a stupid button prompt, and that's a really dumb way to die.
"the intent of the Hero sequences is to empower the player to experience events that would be nearly impossible to play in a natural platforming state... for example, making the player run down ropes, leaping from rope to rope as they're being cut from underneath you, all while dodging other objects"
A cute idea in theory, but when you have to pay attention to button prompts, you can't pay attention to the cool action sequence that you "can't do manually" which kind of neglects the whole point.
The only exception is when it's very simple, like in RE4 when you have to mash the B button to cut the rope before it drowns you. But even that's frustrating. I think the first time I died in RE4 was at the end of that boss...
Brad Lee @ Aug 9th 2007 8:22PM
No wait, my mistake. I remember now. The first time I died in RE4 was to a boulder.
What's sad is I saw it coming, because I saw my brother play it first. He had to press A+B, so I was poised when I came upon it myself.
Little did I expect the buttons to be X+Y, which is significantly more difficult to press on a GC controller I'd like to add. Yep. I died.
Stupid button prompts...
bender @ Aug 6th 2007 4:01PM
Man this guy is crazier than Crazy Ken, and he's crazy.
GRANTED @ Aug 6th 2007 4:23PM
yea hes laughable. in the linked article ("drinking designer") he says "beer is just like water to me". wow, he is SO HARD lol. he reminds me of freshmen during rush week, "oh man i get blackout like EVERY NIGHT its AWESOME". well this guy is the same kind of tool, but even dumber looking because he wears sunglasses when its dark.
Abscissa @ Aug 7th 2007 1:51AM
"...but even dumber looking because he wears sunglasses when its dark."
Hey, don't be knocking it: Corey Hart pulled it off!
But I agree, comments like "Beer is like water for me" do smack of adolescent "Hey, look how cool I am!" nonsense.
marcandrer @ Aug 6th 2007 4:04PM
"He's probably played Dragon's Lair though."
Oh, I didn't know joystiq60 had the chance of playing the final build of DL. You guys rocks !!
/sarcasm
sarc @ Aug 6th 2007 8:44PM
Some day, we can all play Dragon Lair. It's probably going to be ported all over the place though, laserdisc even.
Phranctoast @ Aug 6th 2007 4:02PM
nice try with the dragons lair jab. DL started this and is a nostalgic game for a lot of people. DL 2 was the better out of the two.
The guy should shut up and concentrate on his own games.
The scenes in these other games, may it be HS, RE4, or GOW are only interactive cutscenes. I for one rather timely hit buttons at those points rather then simply watch. Lets hope MGS4 adds some of this two so you can interact with the hours of cutscenes they will have.
Player1 @ Aug 6th 2007 4:05PM
"My response to Mr. Itagaki would be that the intent of the Hero sequences is to empower the player to experience events that would be nearly impossible to play in a natural platforming state... for example, making the player run down ropes, leaping from rope to rope as they're being cut from underneath you, all while dodging other objects - that would be a frustrating experience to 99 percent of our users if we were to force them to do that manually."
Sounds like someone who's never played Ninja Gaiden. I really hate button presses on Playstations. It's hard to remember where the shapes are. There's no logic to them. At least with Resident Evil on GameCube (probably on PS2 as well) you pressed more than face buttons. I really hate those portions of games as well, unless they are really easy, but then what's the point?
Phranctoast @ Aug 6th 2007 6:29PM
You're right. they've only been the same since 95'. Really hard to memorize.
Matt B @ Aug 6th 2007 4:05PM
I like the cut scenes personally. It makes it more like a fatal combo versus just hitting something til its energy bar is low enough it just falls over. I know for GoW, if you messed up and got thrown off, when you tried the combo again, it was a different button set. It's not like the button sequences need to be memorized.
Exo @ Aug 6th 2007 4:06PM
the game IS half assed, its like they made a copy of god of war except took out any feel of control over whats happening.
you basicly mash the button and watch the character run around on screen.
Matt B @ Aug 6th 2007 4:51PM
Obviously, you never played the demo.
PSN: ummfada @ Aug 6th 2007 4:55PM
You've got your 1310, your 1490 and your 1550...its true quam
Stabface Pro @ Aug 6th 2007 5:02PM
I think you just described every videogame ever.
AG23 @ Aug 6th 2007 6:48PM
What is half assed is people who never played Heavenly Sword or even have a PS3 like to form an opinion about a game because of their bias against the system.
Not because they played it or own it, just because they are so blinded by their own fanboyism to see that their actually are other viable options out their besides a 360 or Wii. Half the people who "claim" they have a PS3 yet constantly bash the system are full of shit. This site is full of them.
Exo, if you "actually" played the demo, you would clearly know it is not a button masher and you would know that you would not make it past a minute or two without dying.
Evan @ Aug 6th 2007 7:54PM
"its like they made a copy of god of war except took out any feel of control over whats happening."
You felt control over what's happening in God of War? I didn't. I hack, slash, hack, hack, slash, slash... until the game decides to display a circle icon over the boss' head, and then I can do a cool move. But I have no idea what that move will be; I just press arbitrary buttons and watch to see what the animation does, which really takes me out of the game. God of War looked pretty, but it felt very scripted to me. It never felt like I was battling the monster, it always felt like I was battling a health bar.
mr nimblewick @ Aug 6th 2007 4:07PM
The button pressing parts were the most frustrating parts of Shenmue, but they did help in the story-telling. Still, I get the feeling they could have been accomplished without script if Ryo had been able to move better, like say the prince of persia.
Leobebes @ Aug 6th 2007 4:09PM
Are Heavenly Sword and God of War the games that Playstation fans also use as rebuttals to the gluttony of FPS games on XBOX? If they are what is so special about hack and slash platform games, that are on rails, and use absolutely no skill using a singular button press cut scene scenario?
The arrogance of PS3 fans to think Heavenly Sword will be the answer to their unfortunate cycle of lack of games is astounding. Remember Sony fans, Heavenly Sword is an original Xbox throw away title. Heavenly Sword does not deserve the press it is getting. The hype is due to it being the only PS3 exclusive since Motorstorm.
Vidikron @ Aug 6th 2007 4:23PM
You act like the interactive power moves are all these games have. That's just stupid. Try playing GoW on one of the harder difficult levels and claim it takes no skill.
License to ill @ Aug 6th 2007 4:36PM
You are a idiot...
losttoys @ Aug 6th 2007 4:50PM
And Halo was a PC throwaway that couldn't make it as a RTS title.
It does not matter where a game originated, as long as the final result is a quality title. Go see Silicon Knights Eternal Darkness (N64 turned Gamecube) or SCEJ ICO (PSX cum PS2 title) as examples of games that failed initially, but were incredible games when they were finally released..
samfish @ Aug 6th 2007 4:10PM
"I've never played a good game where the developers put a big icon of the button you're supposed to press onscreen,"
I agree with him, more or less. I don't tend to like it when a game makes you push a button and then throws a cut scene up.
Come up with better game play mechanics if you have to resort to that.
Sometimes it's OK... liked it at some points during RE4, but others (Krauser) sucked. And some games tend to abuse it. Lookin' at you, God of War.
The only game I ever played that I liked that kind of game play element was Godhand...and technically it's TOTALLY unfair to compare that to cut scene toggle sequences like in Heavenly Sword, GOW and RE4.
Phranctoast @ Aug 6th 2007 6:35PM
GOW used it as a "fatality" more or less. When you finally hurt the opponent enough you get do the so called fatality. It's either this or the enemy simply dies. I prefer the former.
Japanese Woman @ Aug 6th 2007 4:12PM
Ninja Gaiden 2 is going to make Heavenly Sword look really old. I can't wait for its release.
Tomonobu Itagaki is the man!
g.Park @ Aug 6th 2007 5:55PM
I've got my copy of Ninja Gaiden 2 on preorder in the Land of Make-Believe.
Ritz @ Aug 6th 2007 4:12PM
heavenly will be a rental for me. but... i also find it ridiculous that this guy is attacking when hes gone and released the same game 3 times.
Lord Chako @ Aug 6th 2007 4:22PM
I find it ridiculous that people are attacking Itagaki, when they have never made a game themselves.
That logic works both ways.
Lord Chako @ Aug 6th 2007 4:16PM
I have to agree with Itagaki. Granted I haven't played every game that has used them, the concept is still the same.
They may be ok in rhythm games, but I don't think they really belong in action or adventure games.
They were lame in Die Hard Arcade, and Shenmue, and I feel that they are still lame today.
There is something about "Hit this button now" or you lose, that detracts from the gameplay.
Triforceowner @ Aug 6th 2007 4:25PM
Personally, I prefer it if the game says, "The A button does this and the B button does this," and than you use those buttons for those specific times. Assassin's Creed pulls off these cinematic moves without putting a button on the screen, because it has certain buttons mapped to arms/legs/whatever.
Mr Khan @ Aug 6th 2007 4:25PM
Those kind of handholding tactics can be fun, as long as they are do not take the place of skill required to play the game
an example would be automatic jumping in Zelda, nobody complains about it because the game keeps you occupied with so much else. The critical issue is how much balance there will be between the handholding and the real action
rom @ Aug 6th 2007 4:30PM
I agree with Itagaki. In God of War and its sequel I found that I was paying more attention to the buttons presses than the actual action behind it. There are parts of the game I made a point to watch someone else play just to see the cool cutscene that took place behind the prompts. I would have rather just had the cutscene on its own. I loved the games despite it though.
License to ill @ Aug 6th 2007 4:39PM
He's just mad because no one bought his re-hashed sigma game...
Strider_J @ Aug 6th 2007 4:42PM
I agree with Itagaki...
single button presses for complex action sequences? lame.
don't make a full on action game if it isn't a full on action game.
look at Ninja Gaiden: you gotta do work to excel in that game. combat, jumping, dodging, etc. the premise? you gotta use skill to succeed.
Anam @ Aug 6th 2007 4:43PM
God of War rocked... but not because of the button-pressing minigames.
God of War regular gameplay
+
Shadow of the Colossus boss fights
=
Best action game ever
Edge @ Aug 6th 2007 6:22PM
God of War had NOTHING on Shadow. Shadow is fine art compared to GoW's shallow splash of bloody paint.
Anam @ Aug 6th 2007 6:57PM
Yes and no.
The boss fights in Shadow of the Colossus were the greatest things ever put into a game... but that's really all there was. If they try to make a longer version/sequel to Shadow of the Colossus, they will really need to add something more to it, preferably some new equipment/abilities and something to do in the general world area.
The minimalist style of Shadow of the Colossus was perfect for what it was: a short, to-the-point game, but if you wanted to make "the best action game ever," you'll need more to it... that's where I'd suggest using features similar to God of War for the "normal" parts of the game.
Abscissa @ Aug 7th 2007 2:01AM
Edge: Colossus certainly has at least one thing in common with fine art - it has the framerate of a Monet.
Phi Nguyen @ Aug 6th 2007 4:45PM
Yeah, the Krauser knife battle in RE4 completely sucks balls. It pisses me off every time I play it.
Anam @ Aug 6th 2007 4:50PM
Do you mean the first one or the one at the end? Because the one at the end rocks!
Phi Nguyen @ Aug 6th 2007 5:47PM
The first one where Ada interrupts. You'll die instantly from one stab, but when you actually fight him in the ruins, you can get stabbed by his gigantic arm and still be alive.
Anam @ Aug 6th 2007 5:51PM
Yeah, that one sucked.
AoE @ Aug 6th 2007 4:49PM
Based on the demo Heavenly Sword is quite a bit more fun. And this is coming from a Team Ninja/Xbox fan... who played through Ninja Gaiden, and the re-issue Ninja Gaiden Black...
KeVil @ Aug 6th 2007 4:50PM
One of the best things about the snes/mega drive generation was that the majority of people didn't have the net so fanboism was kept to close friends after a few pints/joints. Now we have to trawl through countless children who bash a game/console they probably haven't played.
You could mash the buttons on any game, you won't last long but you could still mash none the less. The Hero moments are doing particularly well in my opinion. They're much like that as seen in Fahrenheit/Indigo Prophecy. The idea as pointed out above is to include the player in the cut scenes instead of wrenching control away from them.
Personally I think Itagaki-san should put his money were his mouth instead of attacking other developers(And please god no more Ninja Gaiden remakes, its a great game but move on). His behaviour is that of an insecure child.