Microsoft confirmed at Gamefest 2007 that developers working on server-based MMOs for Xbox 360 are allowed to request use of the hard drive. This is one of those "duh," but not explicitly ever stated things. Microsoft will bend the rules for these HDD required games on a "case-by-case" basis, but now with more ground rules compared to the Final Fantasy XI days.
The way it will work is developers will have to say how much space they expect their game to take and it will have to be explicitly stated on the box. Even if they don't think they're going to require all the space in the beginning, they're supposed to give the expected upper limit they'll need. As Ian Lewis, software design engineer at Microsoft said, "Feel free to require 30GB for your game; that's just going to make your potential audience a lot smaller."
Microsoft says designers can get around the console space issues by offering up lower resolution models and textures, make areas off-limits and stream assets from their server. Silver Xbox Live users will not be required to purchase a gold membership, however everyone will have to pay for the MMO's subscription fee separately from the Live membership. An MMO with a separate subscription fee still sounds like a tough sell on a console, but for the right game, anything is possible.
Reader Comments (78)
Posted: Aug 14th 2007 11:21AM FrankTheCrank said
Games are so intense today, having a hard drive is a must. I think most developers are using hard drives to store cache data. Optical drives are still to slow and hard drives allow data retrieval at much faster rates.
VF5(PS3) eats up about 2.5GB of HDD space.
Get rid of the CORE360 already, drop the Premium to $299.
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VF5(PS3) eats up about 2.5GB of HDD space.
Get rid of the CORE360 already, drop the Premium to $299.
Posted: Aug 14th 2007 11:58AM falcomadol said
Are you kidding me?
Your argument that every 360 should ship with a hard drive boils down to: "The PS3 is incapable of running a simple 3d fighting game that doesn't even feature online play without eating up 2.5 gigabytes of hard drive space, so you should have to have a hard drive for your games too?"
Please.
There are lots of good reasons to have a hard drive on 360 (backwards compatibility requires it since the Xbox had mandatory storage, you can't do much with the marketplace, XBLA, or video marketplace without it, and a large number of compelling games are on the XBLA right now), and you can make a strong argument that Microsoft should at some point ship a hard drive with every unit, but the mass market is dominated by people who pick up a new console when it hits $200 and only buy Madden every year. These people do not need a hard drive on 360 any more than they needed it on PS2.
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Your argument that every 360 should ship with a hard drive boils down to: "The PS3 is incapable of running a simple 3d fighting game that doesn't even feature online play without eating up 2.5 gigabytes of hard drive space, so you should have to have a hard drive for your games too?"
Please.
There are lots of good reasons to have a hard drive on 360 (backwards compatibility requires it since the Xbox had mandatory storage, you can't do much with the marketplace, XBLA, or video marketplace without it, and a large number of compelling games are on the XBLA right now), and you can make a strong argument that Microsoft should at some point ship a hard drive with every unit, but the mass market is dominated by people who pick up a new console when it hits $200 and only buy Madden every year. These people do not need a hard drive on 360 any more than they needed it on PS2.
Posted: Aug 14th 2007 12:36PM (Unverified) said
please keep in mind that the PS3's disc drive is actually a lot slower than the Xbox's 360s, as far as seek times (remember the oblivion devs?)
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Posted: Aug 14th 2007 11:22AM chuckrich81 said
I played EQoA on PS2 and it's save file took up about 3 MB on the memory card. So it's entirely possibly these games will have very low HDD requirements. It's good they're lifting the restriction though.
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Posted: Aug 14th 2007 11:29AM (Unverified) said
Take that Core owners.
I knew this was going to happen. As soon as they said, we will make sure that developers only make games that can play on any 360...etc. that they were lying.
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I knew this was going to happen. As soon as they said, we will make sure that developers only make games that can play on any 360...etc. that they were lying.
Posted: Aug 14th 2007 12:37PM (Unverified) said
yeah...take that Core Users, now your $280 machine is totally worthless.
unless you buy a hardrive of course and still end up paying less than $400 altogether..
.
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unless you buy a hardrive of course and still end up paying less than $400 altogether..
.
Posted: Aug 14th 2007 12:57PM (Unverified) said
So essentially, they're forced to pay Premium price to not get everything in the Premium package.
Man MS is really giving the farm away to these core users.
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Man MS is really giving the farm away to these core users.
Posted: Aug 14th 2007 1:10PM (Unverified) said
what aren't they getting? the headset? chrome tray?
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Posted: Aug 14th 2007 11:31AM SoulBlade said
m$ is still hosed - they still will require devs to code to the lowest common SKU which is the core, so most devs won't have this luxury.
I love this part: "Microsoft says designers can get around the console space issues by offering up lower resolution models and textures, make areas off-limits and stream assets from their server." Yea... make the game worse because they screwed up.
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I love this part: "Microsoft says designers can get around the console space issues by offering up lower resolution models and textures, make areas off-limits and stream assets from their server." Yea... make the game worse because they screwed up.
Posted: Aug 14th 2007 11:35AM VampireHunterZ said
I really don't see the reason for loading an entire game on HDD. The only thing they need the HDD for is updates and expansions. I can't imagine that going over 5GB. Reading the game from DVD is more than enough.
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Posted: Aug 14th 2007 11:47AM FrankTheCrank said
You haven't played FEAR on the PS3.
The game requires 2GB of free HDD space or it won't play. I can only imagine that this data allows the large levels to load wayyyy faster than optical would have.
VF3 load times are almost non-existent, thanks to the hard drive.
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The game requires 2GB of free HDD space or it won't play. I can only imagine that this data allows the large levels to load wayyyy faster than optical would have.
VF3 load times are almost non-existent, thanks to the hard drive.
Posted: Aug 14th 2007 12:15PM (Unverified) said
FrankTheCrank,
you're really much better off playing F.E.A.R. on the 360. even without the hard drive.
.
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you're really much better off playing F.E.A.R. on the 360. even without the hard drive.
.
Posted: Aug 14th 2007 12:54PM VampireHunterZ said
I've only played the demo of FEAR. The thing is demos are stored on your HDD and I don't see any noticable loading speed. Download and play any demo from XBLM and you're still treated to a loading screen almost as long as any game on DVD.
Jumping between maps might be the only concerned. But with programming techniques like streaming this stuff can be invisible.
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Jumping between maps might be the only concerned. But with programming techniques like streaming this stuff can be invisible.
Posted: Aug 14th 2007 11:36AM (Unverified) said
The lack of a hard drive in every 360 is still the single biggest mistake MS made this generation.
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Posted: Aug 14th 2007 11:55AM (Unverified) said
Just another reason why I wont be getting another xbox, how long before games are coming out with a HD DVD drive needed to play? the whole idea of a console is that you should be able to play any game on any console straight out of the box, the 360 is showing signs of heading down the pc route of people having to update repeatedly if they want to play the latest games
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Posted: Aug 14th 2007 2:10PM (Unverified) said
I think you're confusing the 360 for the PS3 which requires install this install that, hook up keyboard and mouse, change your HDD... Even Krazy Ken called it a 'super computer'
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Posted: Aug 14th 2007 11:38AM (Unverified) said
It's weird to own a 360 without a hard drive anyway. The people that don't have the hard drive probably just need to go ahead and get with it.
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Posted: Aug 14th 2007 11:38AM CommentSystem said
"however everyone will have to pay for the MMO's subscription fee separately from the Live membership."
this is one of the reasons why i havent gotten a 360, even though they dont seem like u pay much, those costs compound at the end of the year :\
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this is one of the reasons why i havent gotten a 360, even though they dont seem like u pay much, those costs compound at the end of the year :\
Posted: Aug 14th 2007 12:00PM (Unverified) said
It says right in the quote that silver members can play the MMO's as long as they pay that fee. So if you are so inclined to save a few bucks a month not going gold you can just pay the MMO fee.
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Posted: Aug 14th 2007 12:00PM chuckrich81 said
Live Gold is only $50 a year. All it compounds to at the end of the year is $50. An MMO's monthly fees add up but that has nothing to do with MS or the Xbox, that's completely determined by the game maker.
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Posted: Aug 14th 2007 11:44AM (Unverified) said
Microsoft did not include a hard drive for 1 reason.
They wanted a console at the $299 price point.
They gave the illusion to the masses that their new system was only 300 bucks.
I would assume that gradually, Microsoft WILL phase out the Core model. I wonder though, will this decision come back to haunt them once Sony's big games start to come out.
Dollar for dollar (available software aside) for me the PS3 is a much better value than the 360. As a gamer, I want a machine that can last a long time, and a machine that can keep my older games from becoming useless.
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They wanted a console at the $299 price point.
They gave the illusion to the masses that their new system was only 300 bucks.
I would assume that gradually, Microsoft WILL phase out the Core model. I wonder though, will this decision come back to haunt them once Sony's big games start to come out.
Dollar for dollar (available software aside) for me the PS3 is a much better value than the 360. As a gamer, I want a machine that can last a long time, and a machine that can keep my older games from becoming useless.
Posted: Aug 14th 2007 11:47AM (Unverified) said
Sorry but what you got was a movie player, not a game console. Xbox 360 is and will be the lead Next Gen Console for years to come. Sorry POS3 Fanboy.
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Posted: Aug 14th 2007 11:51AM (Unverified) said
I game with it more than watch movies. Nice try though.
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Posted: Aug 14th 2007 11:52AM FrankTheCrank said
FenixNight,
Look in your rearview...that's the Wii and it's about to blow right by you and the 360.
I'm not a fanboy, just giving you the facts. After this Christmas, the Wii will be, like you said, "the lead Next Gen Console for years to come".
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Look in your rearview...that's the Wii and it's about to blow right by you and the 360.
I'm not a fanboy, just giving you the facts. After this Christmas, the Wii will be, like you said, "the lead Next Gen Console for years to come".
Posted: Aug 14th 2007 11:54AM (Unverified) said
I had no idea that you can predict the future. What an awesome power you must have. Please use it for the good of all humans and not for your own self gain.
Yes, I have a PS3. Yes it is a high def movie player.
It is also a game machine (8 months into a consoles lifespan is not a good way to gauge what kind of software it will eventually have) it is also a music player, a browser, a photo viewer etc.
I like the all in one aspect of this Playstation.
Of course the 360 (which I am neither a fan of or against) has a bigger more diverse game library. If should, it has been out since Nov. 2005.
Competition is a good thing for us as gamers. More competition means better games, and cheaper prices. I hope Microsoft keeps pouring more money into it's games division. It will make for better gaming experiences on the PS3 AND the 360.
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Yes, I have a PS3. Yes it is a high def movie player.
It is also a game machine (8 months into a consoles lifespan is not a good way to gauge what kind of software it will eventually have) it is also a music player, a browser, a photo viewer etc.
I like the all in one aspect of this Playstation.
Of course the 360 (which I am neither a fan of or against) has a bigger more diverse game library. If should, it has been out since Nov. 2005.
Competition is a good thing for us as gamers. More competition means better games, and cheaper prices. I hope Microsoft keeps pouring more money into it's games division. It will make for better gaming experiences on the PS3 AND the 360.
Posted: Aug 14th 2007 1:48PM (Unverified) said
but it's certainly been a long several months eh Vidi?
my PS3 is almost at 400 Folding@Home work units...and my team in the top 1000 in the world with nothing to play until this fall.
can't dismiss the perception of PS3's game drought until those games actually come out. otherwise we'd all be playing Lair and Heavenly Sword by now...
.
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my PS3 is almost at 400 Folding@Home work units...and my team in the top 1000 in the world with nothing to play until this fall.
can't dismiss the perception of PS3's game drought until those games actually come out. otherwise we'd all be playing Lair and Heavenly Sword by now...
.
Posted: Aug 14th 2007 1:20PM (Unverified) said
That's a solution they suggested for people interested in catering to those without harddrives or if they elected to limit the size of the file created. They could probably, if they chose, limit quality for those without harddrives or for those who chose to limit their file size. Anyway, MMO developers are being given the green light to do as they please. That's the point.
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Posted: Aug 14th 2007 11:49AM falcomadol said
I love how a sensible approach to file management and a consumer-friendly labelling strategy are regarded as proof that Microsoft A. Screwed up by not putting a hard drive on every machine and or B. Screwed over people who bought a core system.
Steam uses the same hive file system, it is intended to prevent massive hard drive fragmentation.
Knowing how much storage a game is going to require ahead of time is only fair to people who often aren't allowed to return games to stores except in exchange for the same title.
Aside from that, everything remains the same as it was the day that Final Fantasy XI was released lo these nearly two years ago: some games can require a hard drive, and MMOs don't require you to pay for Live to play them.
Wake me up when the Playstation 3, the "more powerful machine that is the consumer's friend for including a hard drive" uses it's massive storage and free networking to deliver even one MMO, let alone an RPG that isn't already out on 360.
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Steam uses the same hive file system, it is intended to prevent massive hard drive fragmentation.
Knowing how much storage a game is going to require ahead of time is only fair to people who often aren't allowed to return games to stores except in exchange for the same title.
Aside from that, everything remains the same as it was the day that Final Fantasy XI was released lo these nearly two years ago: some games can require a hard drive, and MMOs don't require you to pay for Live to play them.
Wake me up when the Playstation 3, the "more powerful machine that is the consumer's friend for including a hard drive" uses it's massive storage and free networking to deliver even one MMO, let alone an RPG that isn't already out on 360.
Posted: Aug 14th 2007 11:58AM (Unverified) said
Well NCsoft will be releasing several MMOs exclusive to PS3 (to my knowledge).
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Posted: Aug 14th 2007 11:59AM (Unverified) said
The question here is simple -
Can all the xbox360s play all the xbox360 games released?
Can all the ps3s play all the ps3 games released?
Gee I wonder why anyone would ever think MS screwed over core users.
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Can all the xbox360s play all the xbox360 games released?
Can all the ps3s play all the ps3 games released?
Gee I wonder why anyone would ever think MS screwed over core users.
Posted: Aug 14th 2007 12:07PM (Unverified) said
B13,
how did MS screw Core users?
they got a game machine for $300 and can easily upgrade at anytime, combined, for still less than the cost of a PS3.
.
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how did MS screw Core users?
they got a game machine for $300 and can easily upgrade at anytime, combined, for still less than the cost of a PS3.
.
Posted: Aug 14th 2007 12:19PM (Unverified) said
Digi, I'd be interested to know how you would upgrade a core unit to a level comparable with PS3.
Like how much would modding your MB to add a HDMI port cost?
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Like how much would modding your MB to add a HDMI port cost?
Posted: Aug 14th 2007 12:29PM (Unverified) said
wow Bl13,
so now HDMI is required for MMOs?
what won't you say?
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so now HDMI is required for MMOs?
what won't you say?
Posted: Aug 14th 2007 12:34PM (Unverified) said
"they got a game machine for $300 and can easily upgrade at anytime, combined, for still less than the cost of a PS3."
If you mean just to play MMO's, I can upgrade my PS2 to play FFXI for much less money than any model of 360, that must mean they're all bad value, right?
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If you mean just to play MMO's, I can upgrade my PS2 to play FFXI for much less money than any model of 360, that must mean they're all bad value, right?
Posted: Aug 14th 2007 12:41PM (Unverified) said
so now we're talking about PS2s?
whats your next topic, universal health care?
.
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whats your next topic, universal health care?
.
Posted: Aug 14th 2007 12:49PM (Unverified) said
So first you insinuated you can upgrade a core 360 to PS3 level for less than $200, which is clearly false, then you changed your mind and decided as long as you can play MMO who needs a PS3, to which I countered you don't need a 360 either. But yes clearly I'm the one changing the subject.
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Posted: Aug 14th 2007 1:02PM (Unverified) said
no, i said they could upgrade to the level of a 360 PREMIUM.
i mentioned it was for LESS than a PS3 only because that is its main competition and what *you* were comparing the 360 to.
we're talking about necessary items for MMOs here, and HDMI and Blu-Ray aren't.
.
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i mentioned it was for LESS than a PS3 only because that is its main competition and what *you* were comparing the 360 to.
we're talking about necessary items for MMOs here, and HDMI and Blu-Ray aren't.
.
Posted: Aug 14th 2007 1:32PM (Unverified) said
Yes you can in fact upgrade a $300 system to a $400 system without spending $500.
I only brought up PS3 since the comment I was replying to brought it up. I get your point that if you have a core 360 and want to play MMO you can just buy a hard drive and not sell your 360 and buy a PS3. If you only look at playing MMO's, then yes, that's the way to go.
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I only brought up PS3 since the comment I was replying to brought it up. I get your point that if you have a core 360 and want to play MMO you can just buy a hard drive and not sell your 360 and buy a PS3. If you only look at playing MMO's, then yes, that's the way to go.
Posted: Aug 14th 2007 1:49PM (Unverified) said
well then we might as well go back to the n64 and its disk drive and satelite system, all that should cost what $20, but itll be complete sh*t
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Posted: Aug 14th 2007 11:56AM (Unverified) said
I think the bigger issue is, stop trying to make console MMOs. The most successful was FFXI which by my count, barely beat 200k sold for consoles sales.
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Posted: Aug 14th 2007 12:02PM falcomadol said
Neptune, I should hope so, given the money Sony paid them. But, like Final Fantasy XIII, that is far far down the road as far as I can tell.
bl13: The PS2 sold 100 million systems. Can every PS2 play Final Fantasy XI?
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bl13: The PS2 sold 100 million systems. Can every PS2 play Final Fantasy XI?
Posted: Aug 14th 2007 12:10PM (Unverified) said
Yes, all of the launch units can, if you purchase the FFXI + HD bundle. Where's that bundle for core 360's?
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