GRAW developer: PS3 not harder to code for than 360
by Ludwig Kietzmann 
{ Aug 17th 2007 at 5:15PM }
Despite the steady hiss of internet pundits that suggests otherwise, Ubisoft's Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter development team doesn't believe that it's harder to code games for the PlayStation 3 compared to the Xbox 360. Yann Le Tensorer, who co-created the graphics engine powering GRAW and the upcoming Beowulf, re-ckons that any uphill development battles are to blame on the learning curve associated with newer hardware. "It's wrong to say it's harder to code on the PlayStation 3, it's just something that needs to be learnt," he told GamesIndustry.Biz. He goes on to stun the less observant by pointing out that "it's just a different console." Le Tensorer isn't the first to comment on the hardware's perceived difficulty. In June, Team Ninja's Yosuke Hayashi engaged in less subtle commentary by simply telling complaining PS3 developers to "get out of the ring." The GRAW developer goes on to state, "Developers might says [sic] it's harder because it just takes time to understand the technology, we're still early in the lifecycle."
In other words, it is tougher to program for the system, but only while you're still learning the technological ropes. It seems a fair explanation for the publisher's poorly received Splinter Cell: Double Agent port and EA's lack of frames in Madden NFL 08 -- at least from a developer's point of view. Consumers may feel otherwise as they await the PS3 arrival of Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter 2.
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
bearattack79 @ Aug 17th 2007 5:18PM
"Its just different"
Louis S. @ Aug 17th 2007 5:58PM
Hey, hey. We're talking game consoles here, not Macs.
---
Peter Moore sayz:
Bullsh- oh wait, I work for EA now. Don't Care!
Neebs @ Aug 17th 2007 5:19PM
Yeah GRAW dev, but you sucked ass at coding for the PC, to be honest.
Anonim @ Aug 17th 2007 7:00PM
All platforms have their strenghts and their weakness.
X360 has small DVD vs ease of development and all around strong hardware.
PS3 has weak GPU vs strong CPU.
PC has.... people who likes to but 500$ graphics cards?
Zeus the God @ Aug 17th 2007 8:45PM
Actually the CPU itself is fairly weak. 1 core, 512Kb L2 cache, 8 cores, 1 "dormant" SPE cell to run the OS, 1 PPE (main processor cell), 7 SPE cells to help out the PPE cell. The only thing it can do *slightly* better is AI and physics- and thats because it breaks all the code down into tiny bits.
Its because of the Cell that the PS3 is hard to program for. They have to calculate which is best way to divide code up for the Cell so you don't get massive lag or have the game bog down at complex areas.
Oh, and the funny thing is, PC games are generally easier to code for, because they are installed on the hard drive, and therefore don't have to have complex executables to read everything from the disc drive.
Neebs @ Aug 17th 2007 10:59PM
No, Anonim, what you don't know is that GRAW PC is absolute shit in a box.
By the way, generalize less.
http://secure.newegg.com/NewVersion/wishlist/PublicWishDetail.asp?WishListNumber=6614328
$640 PC that is C2D and does DX10. Tons of upgrade room. More storage than a PS3.
Try again, though.
Einhanderkiller @ Aug 17th 2007 11:42PM
GRAW and GRAW 2 for PC was handled by GRIN, a game development studio based in Sweden. Their previous works before GRAW were Bandits: Phoenix Rising, a car combat game, and Ballistics, a futuristic racing game.
Jamie @ Aug 30th 2007 11:33AM
The problem with making games for the PC is that you have to be prepared for a multitude of hardware configurations. That's one of the reasons PC games almost always have patches--they can't test for every hardware setup out there. Standardized hardware simplifies things a great deal on the consoles.
Neebs @ Aug 30th 2007 4:14PM
No, no Jamie. This was no hardware issue. It was completely different game.
LaughingTarget @ Aug 17th 2007 5:25PM
The real question is how difficult is it to simultaneously learn two systems. It may be hard for a 360 developer because they'd have to change their stance on coding to do the PS3. I'm willing to bet good money current PS3 exclusive devs will find the 360 a tough cookie.
Free Thinker @ Aug 17th 2007 5:31PM
Finally, a comment that uses common sense. Excellent point.
Digi Smalls @ Aug 17th 2007 5:39PM
not really, the 360 is a much more conventional design. identical CPU cores, and the main graphics workload goes to the GPU, like a PC (what all devs use to develop these games).
the PS3 uses multiple cores, a general core to manage them, and a GPU that is also supposed to get help from said cores. it's a much more esoteric design.
.
ExMcloud @ Aug 17th 2007 5:50PM
Digi smalls currect my good man...
LaughingTarget @ Aug 17th 2007 5:52PM
Single core processing is similar, parallel processing isn't. This is where the key difficulty learning a cross platform system will lie. When games start using two or three 360 cores, they'll have a horrible time porting over to the PS3. The question lies whether the 360 parallel processing is better than the PS3 parallel processing from a development standpoint. Since the 360 is currently sitting on the bulk of the exclusive developers, the 360 will appear more tempting. When those extra cores are used is when we'll begin to see the shift toward exclusivity and a clearly superior version in ports.
Digi Smalls @ Aug 17th 2007 6:04PM
laughingtarget, yes, you just described the question, but in more detail. which platform is harder to develop for?
those extra cores in the PS3 are highly specialized, they can't do everything a general CPU can, and they need to be told exactly what to do by the one CPU.
while learning to use the main 360 CPU core, you're learning how to use all three. as current PC games have taken advantage of symmetrical CPU cores already.
.
Smoke_Dawg_187 @ Aug 17th 2007 6:06PM
^^
Exactly! That's why the 360's is more similar to Core 2 Duo (PC)
Real Gambler @ Aug 17th 2007 6:13PM
So true!!!!! Been programming microcontroller for a few years. When you have to switch from one brand to the other, it's another world. New opcodes, new compiler, new emulator, the works. So you b1tch for a couple of months, then you get familiar with it, then you find the compiler is great, then you love it, then you suddendly have to switch brand again because they want to build a low power device not available in the previous two brand you're used too. So I know for sure, it's definitively the same feeling going from PS3 to 360 or 360 to PS3...
But hey, you sit down, you read the brick, you type a few lines of code ("hello world" deja vu) and up you go. Have to admit those guys have to create worlds though, not just say hello : )
ExMcloud @ Aug 17th 2007 6:18PM
Correct Digi which is why you will see so many 360/PC titles released simultaneously...
Joshua @ Aug 17th 2007 5:27PM
I wonder if this is just something Sony requires them to say as part of their exclusive content package for the PS3 version...
deaftly @ Aug 17th 2007 5:30PM
so why would dev's want to spend more money to develop for a system with a low install base?
Killer Loki @ Aug 17th 2007 5:37PM
cause the PS3 user base continues to grow and like any company, they want to make money
BNinjaC @ Aug 17th 2007 5:37PM
you do realise that the PS3 is selling as well as the 360 did in it's first year?
Imagine if developers gave up on the 360 in it's first year, no Bioshock, Mass effect, hell, why bother with Halo 3?
Oh wait, yeah, they'd bother because the 360 is your console of choice, right? RIGHT?
Ordeith @ Aug 17th 2007 9:17PM
Looking at VGchartz, the PS3 is doing quite a bit worse than the 360 did at this point in its life.
It started out lower, was even for a couple of weeks with where the 360 was at this point in its life, then dropped lower than the 360 sales again and stayed there.
The only time the PS3 was doing close to what the 360 did was during the weeks the 360 was supply constrained.
Try Again BNinjaC
BNinjaC @ Aug 17th 2007 10:50PM
@ Ordeith
... idiot
http://www.vgchartz.com/hwcomps.php?cons1=Wii®1=All&cons2=PS3®2=All&cons3=X360®3=All&align=1
BNinjaC @ Aug 17th 2007 5:32PM
You never played Quake 4 then? I still have it around here somewhere and it's a horrible mess of a port.
BNinjaC @ Aug 17th 2007 5:38PM
disappearing posts ftw ;p
ExMcloud @ Aug 17th 2007 5:34PM
This coming from the guy who still cant make a port of a game that came out almost 6 moths ago on the 360....LOL
Free Thinker @ Aug 17th 2007 5:37PM
Yes, a developer who makes games for a living does not know what he is talking about. But a typical anti-Sony #$%@ like you do know what you are talking about.
Why do you have to make an ass out of yourself by commenting on every single PS3 related article?
Did Sony take advantage of you as a little boy?
Digi Smalls @ Aug 17th 2007 5:41PM
and you should change your name to Three Thinker.
ExMcloud @ Aug 17th 2007 5:42PM
Funny Im so not Anti-Sony its ridiculous...I believe him in all honesty...But he's still the same guy that is making me and my friends wait for a game that should have been released on the system... The PS3 has always been a great system to me I just don't suck Sony's dick like your self...I criticize Sony when they deserve it but in this case I didn't because this had nothing to do with them...I'm criticizing the developer for talking when his actions seem to prove otherwise....Because truth be told GRAW 2 was not a 360 6 month exclusive so say what u want but I just want GRAW on PS3 sorry
Free Thinker @ Aug 17th 2007 5:58PM
...I'm criticizing the developer for talking when his actions seem to prove otherwise....Because truth be told GRAW 2 was not a 360 6 month exclusive
Did it ever occur to you that maybe just maybe they did not start on the PS3 version till much later? Or, maybe they started almost from scratch. According to Julian from Factor 5, he said it was not a good idea to bring existing code from PC's or the 360 over to the 3. He also said you are better off starting from scratch on the 3 or developing 1st on the 3 and then porting over to the 360.
Again, he is a developer you guys are not. I will take what a developer says more seriously than either of you 2.
ExMcloud @ Aug 17th 2007 6:08PM
You can do that regardless of the fact nody here is correct or incorrect..Who knows what they did...Cuz regardless of the fact that cost a lot of money and you go tell Ubisoft your gonna go spend the same amount of money if not more to make a game thats already completed...Shit if it was as easy as starting from scratch don't you think most developers would do that...Why would developers wanna put out crap? He didn't say anything about starting over he just said coding for the PS3 isn't hard which I agree with him on...Why would Sony make a system that was hard to program for? They wouldnt so I believe him... But where is his proof to back it up...Thats all I'm asking
Digi Smalls @ Aug 17th 2007 6:11PM
Factor 5 is a Sony developer. what would you expect him to say? so much for "free thinking".
the original GRAW was developed from _scratch_ for the 360 and came out in feb/march after the 360 launch. it is almost september and we're still waiting for a _port_.
judging by the demo, its looking worse too.
.
nobodysleeps @ Aug 17th 2007 5:34PM
what was it someone said about the Unreal Engine being hard to code for? It's a good engine with great capabilities..of course it's going to be harder to code for a higher quality engine. The same can be said for the PS3.
The PS3 is newer and more powerful with a different type of processor. Just give it time and people will get it.
I love both PS3 and 360 and I can't wait till the real games start coming out for both systems where everyone's used to coding for them.
Free Thinker @ Aug 17th 2007 5:41PM
I am thinking the same thing. Both machines are new. The PS3 is not only new, the way you develop games for it judging from what developers are saying, is very different.
Just like the early days of the PS2 when dev's were complaining, just give it time. A year from now we will see games that make the current offerings look very early. And I am not just talking about graphics.
Killzone2 and MGS4 are early examples of the gaming goodness that await the 360 and PS3 owners.
Digi Smalls @ Aug 17th 2007 5:49PM
and you should consider changing your name to Three Thinker.
Digi Smalls @ Aug 17th 2007 5:52PM
disappearing posts FTW
mr nimblewick @ Aug 17th 2007 5:40PM
The Wii is easy to develop for, but also just "different," and look at the crap developers turn out because they are too lazy to learn about it.
So... I agree?
hvnlysoldr @ Aug 17th 2007 5:40PM
A little of Column A and a little of Column B. PS2 was harder to program for than Xbox or GCN yet when all the games were being made for it the groundwork was laid to overcome them. Just that technically the code needed for the more complex system could be spared on a less complex system for more "useful" art or mechanics.
deeppond @ Aug 17th 2007 5:44PM
I don't know if I can believe him, nothing against the PS3, but he used the word "learnt".
pwnetheus @ Aug 17th 2007 6:47PM
'Tis British English my good man.
Mr Khan @ Aug 17th 2007 5:43PM
This sounds about right. Which one is inherently "superior" is a matter of debate (what with the PS3's superior numbers but the 360's more effecient use of only slightly lesser numbers), but the inferior PS3 ports have been a product of attempting to code for the PS3 like it was any other console (something mirroring the PS3's structure hasn't really been seen since the PS1)
Digi Smalls @ Aug 17th 2007 5:48PM
the original GRAW was released on 360 four months after its launch.
while we're still waiting for a *port* of GRAW 2 on PS3, a game based on an engine that is a year and a half old.
.
ExMcloud @ Aug 17th 2007 5:55PM
Digi yet you make another good point but the original GRAW came out on the original Xbox to right...Would their dev kits be similar?
Digi Smalls @ Aug 17th 2007 6:06PM
for the multiplayer yes, but the singleplayer was an all-new next-gen engine built by Tiwak, from *scratch* in a very timely manner.
ExMcloud @ Aug 17th 2007 6:09PM
Ok that makes sense
jsn @ Aug 17th 2007 5:48PM
what a convoluted way to agree that "yes it is harder to develop for the Ps3". That's essentially what he said. It's not harder to develop for, it's just harder when you're starting out..... So yes, it's harder to develop for.
Besides, Carmack stated that the PS3 was harder to develop on. If Carmack says it, it is so.
jsn @ Aug 17th 2007 5:53PM
"The PS3 is newer and more powerful with a different type of processor. Just give it time and people will get it."
Let it prove that it's more powerful before stating it matter of factly. It is newer and it is a slightly different type of processor, but it remains to be seen whether or not it's more powerful.
horngreen @ Aug 17th 2007 5:56PM
So then it's just a piece of shit then?
Curmeo @ Aug 17th 2007 6:05PM
nope, you are.