Man, are we sick and tired of the cavalcade of praise being heaped on BioShock. "You will never look at a blah blah blah the same way again." "It's one of those monumental blah blah you'll never forget." OK, OK, we get it, the game's amazing. But surely it must have some flaws, right?Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw sure thinks so. He goes off on the game in his own inimitable web video style in the Escapist's latest Zero Punctuation feature. While Croshaw thinks that the game is overall pretty good, he points out some flaws that tend to get glossed over in the media lovefest. Among the major gripes:
- Familiarity -- While inspiration is one thing, Croshaw argues that BioShock "isn't like System Shock 2, it is System Shock 2" only "everything that was cyberpunk then is steampunk now."
- It's way too easy -- "You trip over ammo, money and medkits" and "dying is a momentary annoyance" with all the free vita-chambers strewn about.
- The moral choices aren't very interesting -- The controversial decision to save or harvest the creepy Little Sisters pretty much becomes a choice between "Mother Teresa or baby eating," with nothing in between.
(Page 1) Reader Comments
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The only thing that might be considered shallow is the choice to save or harvest the little sisters, but that is such a small part of the game it's an injustice to judge the entire game as shallow for it. (IMHO)
Bioshock is a total letdown. It should've been $40, not $60.
How you choose to approach this game is up to you. If you choose to shoot, reload, and occasionally use a plasmid - that's up to you. I sure as hell don't play like that. I use my plasmids far more than just occasionally. I love setting up traps, enraging enemies, electrifying them when their in water, burning them when their near gas, freezing then shattering them, turning security against them, using telekinesis to harness a rocket turrets ammo, tricking them with a target dummy, getting a big daddy for a body guard... and that's just at the top of my head. If you can't see the diversity in that then I think our definitions of "diversity" are completely different.
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Also Bioshock suppose to keep things fun,If you want challenge play all the game in hard with just 3 plasmids without using the Vita chamber which is pretty much what I'm doing.
I thought the rate at which he spoke would be annoying at first but it added to the humour of the piece.
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But the choice issue, I'm right there. Often these games that talk about choice of being good guy or bad guy and the choice is ultimately the players. Yet you take one choice and you're ultimately punished for being a bad guy rather than the game saying "So... chose bad guy, huh?" and rolling with it. That, and the moral questions posed are often represented in such a simplistic A or B manner that there's really no thinking about the choice and the ramifications that come with that. Now these choice games have gotten better recently with SUPPORTING more evil choices but you're still punished. I still have bad dreams of Neverwinter Nights and my constant affairs of needing to kill homeless people between missions just to stay in alignment.
Note to Game Designers: If I have the choice of being Chaotic Evil.... then goddamit, support my decision rather than punish me front of the game to the back.
Of course that rant is more directly attached to RPGs than most games but the video man mentioned it, I merely remarked further...
As to Bioshock, cannot say for certain whether it's overly hyped yet or not (right now I'm leaning towards yes) but I can say it's just like Resistance to me in how I cannot marathon game on this title. I eventually have to stop then I'm back to either Disgaea 2 or DJ Max Portable 2 right now.
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My biggest gripe with Bioshock is its way too easy compared to Metroid Prime 3. Maybe Bioshock should've been released on the "casual" Wii, while Prime 3 should've been released on the "hardcore" 360 ;)
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Sounds like an idea, but I'm not sure MP3 would be the same without the motion controls...
Meh, what do I know, my stupid brother is playing it non-stop on MY Wii. LOL, I had to buy a game (for a different system) to tide me over... It's Final Fantasy IV, I wanted VI because I heard it was very good. But they didn't have it. Is FFIV any good?
BTW this is my first Final Fantasy... Random battle/turn based RPGs FTL (this one has active time though...)
Sounds like an idea, but I'm not sure MP3 would be the same without the motion controls...
Meh, what do I know, my stupid brother is playing it non-stop on MY Wii. LOL, I had to buy a game (for a different system) to tide me over... It's Final Fantasy IV, I wanted VI because I heard it was very good. But they didn't have it. Is FFIV any good?
BTW this is my first Final Fantasy... Random battle/turn based RPGs FTL (this one has active time though...)
Final Fantasy IV is pretty good, but Final Fantasy VI is one of the greatest games ever made, you should try getting your hands on VI, it's easier to play then IV too, easier to get into I mean.
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...
Deja vu. Same article above, same picture of Yahtzee's even same reply above...
http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa81/hvnlysoldr/d73db189.jpg
But as he says up front, people want him to criticize, not praise.
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There are plenty of tough and complex FPSes. The point of BioShock seemed to me to be to create a believably consistent (and disturbing) visual, auditory, and physical environment and to tell a story (and perhaps make a point or two). And it succeeded in those quite well - the first part better than any game I can think of, the second much better than most games. I don't mind it losing inventory management (rearranging potato chip bags in a little grid that pops up when you hit tab) so it doesn't get in the way of that.
Someone else asked if BioShock really deserved better reviews than Ocarina of time, Oblivion, GTA and Resident Evil 4, which is a fair question, and I think it does - or at least equal. Oblivion is probably the best comparison - it's obviously nowhere near as large or varied as Oblivion, but it's not trying to be. The climax of BioShock about 2/3 through (everything after that leading up to the end boss fight is just denouement)impacted me far more than anything in of these other games did, and I would again claim that nothing in any of those games, as great as they are, are as brilliant as BioShock's artist level. It's not trying to be a huge epic game, it's trying to be a small but incredibly rich game storywise (which also unfortunately hurts the replay value - since you know the story, replay involves trying different mechanics next time through like only being a wrench jockey, but this was a deliberate design choice).
BioShock is also the most moving and convincing 'discussion' of Objectivism I've ever seen. It is far more thought provoking and convincing to play it than to read someone else droning on about it (pro or con).
Complaining about gameplay mechanics, as long as they aren't horrid, is valid (this is still a game) but mostly missing the point - especially where the game deliberately does so to streamline the game so you can pay more attention to the environment and story. The single complaint I've seen that involves the game actually falling short of what it was trying to do is that the 'choice' whether or not to harvest the little sisters isn't that hard a choice, and that's too bad. Also, possibly even the NEED to have an endboss fight just because it's expected is a failing.
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I miss the screams of the midwifes D:.
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Especially the part about the moral choices (or 'choice', rather). Deciding between killing or harvesting little sisters added a nice level of emotion and stuff, but it didn't really affect the game except dictating which final cutscene you get (and both were pretty lame IMO). This left a pretty bitter taste in my mouth after my second playthrough. I was all excited about seeing what would be different, but the only change I saw was an evil (and quite stupid, IMO) ending.
Though it was a good game overall, I have a feeling many copies of Bioshock will find themselves in the "used" bin sometime in the next few months.
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Also, if you want to see more of his stuff, go to The Escapist, which is also a good site for gamers to poke around in.
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SS2 needs to be remade...
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That's because Bioshock is all about what a good storyline can do for a single player game. Bioshock took 25 hours to beat while it was this easy. Just think of how long it WOULD have taken had they taken away the vita-chambers and made you restart from your last savepoint ala Dead Rising...and what did people do then? They labeled it as flaw in the game. My point is, there is no common ground. People will always complain. Look at Ninja Gaiden. For some reason, people bitch and moan about it being too hard. In my opinion the difficulty of a game should solely be based on how the developer wants their game to be experienced by the end-user. In Ninja Gaiden the goal was to make everything seem like an amazing feat or accomplishment. In Bioshock the goal was to make the player feel immersed within the world and storyline. It's kind of tough to get into a story when you have to stop and back track for 30 minutes every time you die. Get it? This way the story never stopped. It just kept going, making you want to keep going.
"The moral choices aren't very interesting -- The controversial decision to save or harvest the creepy Little Sisters pretty much becomes a choice between "Mother Teresa or baby eating," with nothing in between."
Well, considering that this is really the first game to place such a dramatic moral choice on the player, I'd say they did a pretty good job. What more did you want? There are only two things you can do with the little sisters. Did this guy want another option that allowed you to send them to purgatory for a bit? You can't half-way kill something. You either kill it or you don't There's life and there's death, no middle ground. You'd think that an adult would know this. I guess not. Apparently this guy believes that there is some mystical in-between death and life state that we should have been able to choose from.
Blah. This happens every time a game comes out that deserves such a great rating. There's always some rebel who nitpicks the game to death to point out stupid things that he dubs "flaws" in the game's design.
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There's always a grey area, it doesn't matter what it is. What you learn when you grow up is that it's not just black and white.
In that case the ending should be, you conquer the earth with all the powers you gain from the Adam but you die from Aids 3 weeks later. Hey that’s what happens when you inject yourself with stuff you found on the streets. Hehehe.
Seriously I agree you Dsub in everything, Bioshock tells a great story while being an extremely entertaining game, I also feel the same about the people criticizing this kind of games, why don’t they develop a game and show us how its Done?
Okay, quick... turn off your console and use your PC for more than downloading Animaniacs porn. Seriously. These tough morale questions have been posed to gamers for a long time. Just rarely on consoles. I mean, fucks sake, billy. You want high morale consequences to your actions and decisions....
http://www.peacemakergame.com/
Fact of the matter is they made a big, big deal about this being some ubertough choice on the gamers, but there was a zero middle ground. You cannot harm a little sister in misfire. Facing facts, all you can do is simply Harvest or Rescue. Which wouldn't be that big of a deal if they gave you those same morale questions in regards to the entire game rather than just this aspect. I mean, hell, in the original Baldur's Gate, I convinced a man to commit suicide just so I could loot his corpse. Here we are, nearly ten years later, and fuck all if we've progressed past this point.
killing a whole family in The Sims 2 counts like a moral decision?
: P
I’ll accept the Moral decision wasn’t too hard especially because Youtube,Gamefaqs and hell all the net spoiled the game, In fact the achievements give you a damn hint.
But you have to accept the 2 alternative endings are pretty cool.
*Spoilers
You have been warned.
I will continue with the spoilers saying there wasn’t a single point in the game where I was in the need of more ADAM or Harvesting Little Sisters, That is because not every Upgrade was needed, Maybe if the Power to the People terminals used ADAM I would be in the need of more ADAM also that the Bonus you get from saving the little sisters was enough. In fact there are only 2 Plasmids that are totally necessary in the game: Telekinesis and Freeze Ray because you can switch between Incinerate and Electro-ray, so you can pretty much end the game with 3 plasmids.
The first 1 is about completing the game in Hard, I screw up 2 achievements in my first play and the other one I don't know WTF?, For some reason the game didn't count it
I'm also in Farmers Market, Is actually pretty easy.
BTW you can do a Speed Run and if you have knowledge of the game an achievement Run, yet finding all the Audio files takes a long time also I like to play the game without guides.
Anyways...in my opinion, convincing a guy to kill himself so you can steal his loot is totally different from killing a little girl with your bare hands just so you can steal something from her. I won't get into a morality debate here, but I for one felt morally obligated to save all the little sisters. Every time I got a reward for saving them, it made me feel good about what I had done. That is the exact feeling that the developers were trying to get the end-user to experience. I don't see how this supposed "middle ground" will change that in anyway. The only thing I can see them adding would have been the option to "hurt" the little sisters in increments to steal some of their ADAM, but yet again, one would be faced with the same moral issue of harming a child.
I disagree. No matter how you pitch it, there is still just life and death. Even if you are in a coma for 10 years while infected with AIDS and Lung Cancer, your still alive and not dead. We may experience tragedies in our lives such as illness and injury, but in the end, it is black and white. You either live or you die.
ADoM is over 10 years old, and it has everything from Lawful Good to Chaotic Neutral, and even that game has 3 major endings, being good, evil, and neutral. And the evil ending isn't a PUNISHMENT, which is the main point here. Choices are pointless if one decision is rewarded and another is punished. Depending on your moral decisions you're allowed certain skill sets which are very important, and if you're evil you work for a different evil god which you try to please through different means, and you rock some more evil sacrifices. You can either save the world or take over the world, or do... something for neutrality... I'm not sure. I suck at the game ok. It's hard as hell. I've been playing it for over a decade and haven't beaten it. And that is another reason why it's the best game ever.
dsub, WHAT? You're telling me using charisma and intelligence stats to convince a person life isn't worth living just so you can get his stuff isn't as evil as pressing X or Y? And a little news flash for you. In Baldur's Gate, no matter how you get his items, whether good or bad, he has the exact same items. They don't penalize you for being bad or hold back the adam when you're good.
But the point remains that you have a clear, distinct choice that is only active after a Big Daddy dies. So what's the big deal? Let's put it this way. I place Proximity Mines in front of a Little Sister so that it activates the Big Daddy. Then I use a couple frag grenades. Despite the splash damage and such, she comes through unscathed and unharmed. Slice it however you want, that makes NO sense. If I was truly given a choice like this, I should be able to headshot the girl from across the room and watch the Big Daddy run around pointlessly and harvest her afterwards. But I can't. The game, in this regard, is limited. And it's the ONLY place where you're given moral questions so the morality of the game is limited.
A real moral dilemma is when you have 2 choices, and the rightness or wrongness of each choice is ambiguous. Thats a moral dilemma. They way this sounds, you might as well pick "good" or "evil" from a menu at the beginning.
"Every time I got a reward for saving them, it made me feel good about what I had done. That is the exact feeling that the developers were trying to get the end-user to experience."
**SPOILER**
After the encounter with Ryan, and you find out your role in the whole story, you're at your lowest point in the game. You feel used and worthless, and then you see all the little girls you saved playing in Tenebaum's hideout...that was really moving. I thought the devs did a wonderful job there.
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I'm not denying that its a good game, but for all the reviewers giving it perfect scores, none of them highlighted anything about the game that you can't find in other shooters already available.
And like I said, there are games out there like Oblivion, games like RE4, which were much more revolutionary, much more well executed, and all around of a higher quality.
Yeah is easy when you use the Vita Chambers but In my case I never used the Vita chambers, After playing Half-Life and Doom I automatically reload the game when I’m about to die.
Actually is not the Vita chamber what makes the game so easy, Is the Camera. For example before fully researching a Spider-Splinter-(Man) it was nearly impossible to kill but then after you get the +++ damage bonus is just matter of using the "Freeze+Wrench" combo.
I don’t know if a Dead penalty should be implemented or which DP would be the most appropriate for example, charging the whole Chapter like in Gears of War makes it repetitive without making it hard, the old charge and load isn’t that hard either. IMO the best dead penalty would be something like in Guild Wars where you start again but with less health and it is an accumulative penalty so I guess it will make things more interesting.
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