BioShock gets the Zero Punctuation treatment
Man, are we sick and tired of the cavalcade of praise being heaped on BioShock. "You will never look at a blah blah blah the same way again." "It's one of those monumental blah blah you'll never forget." OK, OK, we get it, the game's amazing. But surely it must have some flaws, right?Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw sure thinks so. He goes off on the game in his own inimitable web video style in the Escapist's latest Zero Punctuation feature. While Croshaw thinks that the game is overall pretty good, he points out some flaws that tend to get glossed over in the media lovefest. Among the major gripes:
- Familiarity -- While inspiration is one thing, Croshaw argues that BioShock "isn't like System Shock 2, it is System Shock 2" only "everything that was cyberpunk then is steampunk now."
- It's way too easy -- "You trip over ammo, money and medkits" and "dying is a momentary annoyance" with all the free vita-chambers strewn about.
- The moral choices aren't very interesting -- The controversial decision to save or harvest the creepy Little Sisters pretty much becomes a choice between "Mother Teresa or baby eating," with nothing in between.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
blooh @ Sep 6th 2007 8:09PM
nice pic of the daddy
joepsu777 @ Sep 6th 2007 8:10PM
I like bioshock, but it is in fact, shallow. There isn't THAT much to it. Good game. Not an incredible game.
rom @ Sep 7th 2007 2:55AM
I still don't understand how people can think this game is shallow. The story is well thought out and very deep, the combat is incredibly diverse, and I do think the game is challenging. Right now I'm doing hard mode without using the Vita-Chambers, and it has lead me to many reloads as I get my ass drilled by the Bouncers and Rosies.
The only thing that might be considered shallow is the choice to save or harvest the little sisters, but that is such a small part of the game it's an injustice to judge the entire game as shallow for it. (IMHO)
funkonaut @ Sep 7th 2007 10:15AM
The combat is diverse? Are you kidding me? There are only 3 types of enemies in the game: splicers, big daddies, and turrets. That's it. You just shoot, reload, fire a plasmid or two, rinse, repeat, for the entire game.
Bioshock is a total letdown. It should've been $40, not $60.
rom @ Sep 7th 2007 12:36PM
"You just shoot, reload, fire a plasmid or two, rinse, repeat, for the entire game."
How you choose to approach this game is up to you. If you choose to shoot, reload, and occasionally use a plasmid - that's up to you. I sure as hell don't play like that. I use my plasmids far more than just occasionally. I love setting up traps, enraging enemies, electrifying them when their in water, burning them when their near gas, freezing then shattering them, turning security against them, using telekinesis to harness a rocket turrets ammo, tricking them with a target dummy, getting a big daddy for a body guard... and that's just at the top of my head. If you can't see the diversity in that then I think our definitions of "diversity" are completely different.
Arturo @ Sep 6th 2007 8:13PM
awesome game IMO, but i do wish there were a greater penalty for dying. hard mode really doesn't seem all too hard because of it.
Casper32 @ Sep 6th 2007 8:15PM
It definately shouldn't be recieving the praise it's gotten after release. Bioshock is still one of best games this year, but I agree that it's heavily overhyped.
abstract_visions @ Sep 6th 2007 8:15PM
I, too, dislike the vita-chambers. It makes the Big Daddies much less imposing when you can throw yourself at them a dozen times to kill them.
ssuk @ Sep 7th 2007 9:04AM
You say that with a FFVII avatar...
blooh @ Sep 6th 2007 9:41PM
you could just reload saves if you wanted to make it harder...
Word of the street. @ Sep 6th 2007 10:43PM
I never used the vita chambers,Also What is the difference with using the Vita chambers or reloading the game?
Also Bioshock suppose to keep things fun,If you want challenge play all the game in hard with just 3 plasmids without using the Vita chamber which is pretty much what I'm doing.
Ghede @ Sep 7th 2007 4:45AM
The difference between reloading and Vita-chambers is vita-chambers don't reset enemy health or respawn them either. If you kill one enemy and another kills you, you walk back there, one is still dead and another is ripe for killing. Theoretically you could kill a big daddy with no plasmids or mods with a wrench if you were patient enough. The only part that removes this crutch is the final boss, and you probably don't need it for the battle anyways.
mr mobius @ Sep 6th 2007 8:21PM
Forget the criticism, which I can't agree or disagree with having never played either game, but that video was hilariously presented.
I thought the rate at which he spoke would be annoying at first but it added to the humour of the piece.
Neebs @ Sep 6th 2007 8:21PM
So far, this guy has reviewed two of my favorite games, Psychonauts and Bioshock. No matter how he rates them, he is hillarious.
sheppy @ Sep 6th 2007 8:23PM
Haven't died yet so I can't make comment but I'm only to farmers market.
But the choice issue, I'm right there. Often these games that talk about choice of being good guy or bad guy and the choice is ultimately the players. Yet you take one choice and you're ultimately punished for being a bad guy rather than the game saying "So... chose bad guy, huh?" and rolling with it. That, and the moral questions posed are often represented in such a simplistic A or B manner that there's really no thinking about the choice and the ramifications that come with that. Now these choice games have gotten better recently with SUPPORTING more evil choices but you're still punished. I still have bad dreams of Neverwinter Nights and my constant affairs of needing to kill homeless people between missions just to stay in alignment.
Note to Game Designers: If I have the choice of being Chaotic Evil.... then goddamit, support my decision rather than punish me front of the game to the back.
Of course that rant is more directly attached to RPGs than most games but the video man mentioned it, I merely remarked further...
As to Bioshock, cannot say for certain whether it's overly hyped yet or not (right now I'm leaning towards yes) but I can say it's just like Resistance to me in how I cannot marathon game on this title. I eventually have to stop then I'm back to either Disgaea 2 or DJ Max Portable 2 right now.
Patrick @ Sep 6th 2007 8:30PM
He is way too right.
My biggest gripe with Bioshock is its way too easy compared to Metroid Prime 3. Maybe Bioshock should've been released on the "casual" Wii, while Prime 3 should've been released on the "hardcore" 360 ;)
Raikage @ Sep 6th 2007 8:42PM
New and exciting!
Sounds like an idea, but I'm not sure MP3 would be the same without the motion controls...
Meh, what do I know, my stupid brother is playing it non-stop on MY Wii. LOL, I had to buy a game (for a different system) to tide me over... It's Final Fantasy IV, I wanted VI because I heard it was very good. But they didn't have it. Is FFIV any good?
BTW this is my first Final Fantasy... Random battle/turn based RPGs FTL (this one has active time though...)
Raikage @ Sep 6th 2007 8:42PM
New and exciting!
Sounds like an idea, but I'm not sure MP3 would be the same without the motion controls...
Meh, what do I know, my stupid brother is playing it non-stop on MY Wii. LOL, I had to buy a game (for a different system) to tide me over... It's Final Fantasy IV, I wanted VI because I heard it was very good. But they didn't have it. Is FFIV any good?
BTW this is my first Final Fantasy... Random battle/turn based RPGs FTL (this one has active time though...)
Patrick @ Sep 6th 2007 8:52PM
Metroid Prime 3's story is better damn nice, I think it would be a great game on any of the systems, the motion controls just make it an ever better game.
Final Fantasy IV is pretty good, but Final Fantasy VI is one of the greatest games ever made, you should try getting your hands on VI, it's easier to play then IV too, easier to get into I mean.
David @ Sep 6th 2007 8:36PM
I really love those videos. This one is all accurate, too. Including, of course, "probably one of the best games of the year."
Shmil @ Sep 6th 2007 8:47PM
pretty funny yet painfully true
hvnlysoldr @ Sep 6th 2007 8:59PM
Put a white Mario hat on them and you've got a great avatar. ...
...
Deja vu. Same article above, same picture of Yahtzee's even same reply above...
Shmil @ Sep 6th 2007 11:51PM
i would like to unfortunately in my current location i can't operate paint well enough with touch pad mouse and i lack photoshop
hvnlysoldr @ Sep 7th 2007 1:23AM
Meh
http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa81/hvnlysoldr/d73db189.jpg
Sizer @ Sep 6th 2007 8:54PM
While I would agree with him that a) it's too easy, and b) it's pretty much System Shock 2 gameplay (which is a good thing), he misses that the narrative in this one is far above SS2's. There was absolutely nothing in SS2 to compare with the 'artist level' in Bioshock for storytelling, level cohesiveness, and creepiness. And I loved SS2, so that's no ding on it.
But as he says up front, people want him to criticize, not praise.
Sizer @ Sep 7th 2007 4:44AM
I know, replying to my own comment is a little cheap, but after rereading it tonight I see I sort of didn't state my point well. If you're looking at BioShock from only a gameplay mechanics standpoint then yes, maybe it's not the greatest FPS ever. However, this is a bit like going to see _The Princess Bride_ and complaining that there weren't enough car chases and explosions.
There are plenty of tough and complex FPSes. The point of BioShock seemed to me to be to create a believably consistent (and disturbing) visual, auditory, and physical environment and to tell a story (and perhaps make a point or two). And it succeeded in those quite well - the first part better than any game I can think of, the second much better than most games. I don't mind it losing inventory management (rearranging potato chip bags in a little grid that pops up when you hit tab) so it doesn't get in the way of that.
Someone else asked if BioShock really deserved better reviews than Ocarina of time, Oblivion, GTA and Resident Evil 4, which is a fair question, and I think it does - or at least equal. Oblivion is probably the best comparison - it's obviously nowhere near as large or varied as Oblivion, but it's not trying to be. The climax of BioShock about 2/3 through (everything after that leading up to the end boss fight is just denouement)impacted me far more than anything in of these other games did, and I would again claim that nothing in any of those games, as great as they are, are as brilliant as BioShock's artist level. It's not trying to be a huge epic game, it's trying to be a small but incredibly rich game storywise (which also unfortunately hurts the replay value - since you know the story, replay involves trying different mechanics next time through like only being a wrench jockey, but this was a deliberate design choice).
BioShock is also the most moving and convincing 'discussion' of Objectivism I've ever seen. It is far more thought provoking and convincing to play it than to read someone else droning on about it (pro or con).
Complaining about gameplay mechanics, as long as they aren't horrid, is valid (this is still a game) but mostly missing the point - especially where the game deliberately does so to streamline the game so you can pay more attention to the environment and story. The single complaint I've seen that involves the game actually falling short of what it was trying to do is that the 'choice' whether or not to harvest the little sisters isn't that hard a choice, and that's too bad. Also, possibly even the NEED to have an endboss fight just because it's expected is a failing.
David @ Sep 6th 2007 8:55PM
I don't think I laughed harder during a review. Can anyone give me the Psychonauts review as well? I would love to see it and probably split my sides. Thanks in advance.
Kazi @ Sep 6th 2007 9:31PM
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/editorials/zeropunctuation/1368-Zero-Punctuation-Psychonauts
Kazi @ Sep 6th 2007 8:55PM
All so true. I keep telling my friends everything he said in this video as far as comparing System Shock 2 to Bioshock. Bioshock was painfully dumbed down (Though, I actually enjoyed the hacking even though it didn't fit with the game at all). Still an outstanding game though.
I miss the screams of the midwifes D:.
Firestorm2117 @ Sep 6th 2007 8:57PM
I hate to say it, because I really enjoyed Bioshock, but I agree completely with the review (excluding the System Shock 2 thing, since I never played it).
Especially the part about the moral choices (or 'choice', rather). Deciding between killing or harvesting little sisters added a nice level of emotion and stuff, but it didn't really affect the game except dictating which final cutscene you get (and both were pretty lame IMO). This left a pretty bitter taste in my mouth after my second playthrough. I was all excited about seeing what would be different, but the only change I saw was an evil (and quite stupid, IMO) ending.
Though it was a good game overall, I have a feeling many copies of Bioshock will find themselves in the "used" bin sometime in the next few months.
dsub @ Sep 6th 2007 10:16PM
Obviously. The game has no multiplayer mode.
Blunt @ Sep 6th 2007 9:23PM
I love Yahtzee's humour "with a 'u'". He's the best British/Australian Game Reviewer ever made by man.
Also, if you want to see more of his stuff, go to The Escapist, which is also a good site for gamers to poke around in.
muppetmeth @ Sep 6th 2007 9:38PM
System Shock 2 was great. I've only played the demo for Bioshock.
SS2 needs to be remade...
dsub @ Sep 6th 2007 10:13PM
"It's way too easy -- "You trip over ammo, money and medkits" and "dying is a momentary annoyance" with all the free vita-chambers strewn about."
That's because Bioshock is all about what a good storyline can do for a single player game. Bioshock took 25 hours to beat while it was this easy. Just think of how long it WOULD have taken had they taken away the vita-chambers and made you restart from your last savepoint ala Dead Rising...and what did people do then? They labeled it as flaw in the game. My point is, there is no common ground. People will always complain. Look at Ninja Gaiden. For some reason, people bitch and moan about it being too hard. In my opinion the difficulty of a game should solely be based on how the developer wants their game to be experienced by the end-user. In Ninja Gaiden the goal was to make everything seem like an amazing feat or accomplishment. In Bioshock the goal was to make the player feel immersed within the world and storyline. It's kind of tough to get into a story when you have to stop and back track for 30 minutes every time you die. Get it? This way the story never stopped. It just kept going, making you want to keep going.
"The moral choices aren't very interesting -- The controversial decision to save or harvest the creepy Little Sisters pretty much becomes a choice between "Mother Teresa or baby eating," with nothing in between."
Well, considering that this is really the first game to place such a dramatic moral choice on the player, I'd say they did a pretty good job. What more did you want? There are only two things you can do with the little sisters. Did this guy want another option that allowed you to send them to purgatory for a bit? You can't half-way kill something. You either kill it or you don't There's life and there's death, no middle ground. You'd think that an adult would know this. I guess not. Apparently this guy believes that there is some mystical in-between death and life state that we should have been able to choose from.
Blah. This happens every time a game comes out that deserves such a great rating. There's always some rebel who nitpicks the game to death to point out stupid things that he dubs "flaws" in the game's design.
Kazi @ Sep 6th 2007 10:19PM
The in between ground would have to be you get more adam and the girl still lives, but you give her AIDS. The obvious in between ground. Or she loses a body part, which ever floats your boat.
There's always a grey area, it doesn't matter what it is. What you learn when you grow up is that it's not just black and white.
Word of the street. @ Sep 6th 2007 11:11PM
KAZ WTF?, Aids, LOL.I don't know you but that sound even more creepy than actually killing the little sister.
In that case the ending should be, you conquer the earth with all the powers you gain from the Adam but you die from Aids 3 weeks later. Hey that’s what happens when you inject yourself with stuff you found on the streets. Hehehe.
Seriously I agree you Dsub in everything, Bioshock tells a great story while being an extremely entertaining game, I also feel the same about the people criticizing this kind of games, why don’t they develop a game and show us how its Done?
sheppy @ Sep 6th 2007 11:15PM
"Well, considering that this is really the first game to place such a dramatic moral choice on the player, I'd say they did a pretty good job. What more did you want? There are only two things you can do with the little sisters. Did this guy want another option that allowed you to send them to purgatory for a bit? You can't half-way kill something. You either kill it or you don't There's life and there's death, no middle ground. You'd think that an adult would know this. I guess not. Apparently this guy believes that there is some mystical in-between death and life state that we should have been able to choose from. "
Okay, quick... turn off your console and use your PC for more than downloading Animaniacs porn. Seriously. These tough morale questions have been posed to gamers for a long time. Just rarely on consoles. I mean, fucks sake, billy. You want high morale consequences to your actions and decisions....
http://www.peacemakergame.com/
Fact of the matter is they made a big, big deal about this being some ubertough choice on the gamers, but there was a zero middle ground. You cannot harm a little sister in misfire. Facing facts, all you can do is simply Harvest or Rescue. Which wouldn't be that big of a deal if they gave you those same morale questions in regards to the entire game rather than just this aspect. I mean, hell, in the original Baldur's Gate, I convinced a man to commit suicide just so I could loot his corpse. Here we are, nearly ten years later, and fuck all if we've progressed past this point.
Word of the street. @ Sep 6th 2007 11:28PM
@ Sheepy
killing a whole family in The Sims 2 counts like a moral decision?
: P
I’ll accept the Moral decision wasn’t too hard especially because Youtube,Gamefaqs and hell all the net spoiled the game, In fact the achievements give you a damn hint.
But you have to accept the 2 alternative endings are pretty cool.
*Spoilers
You have been warned.
I will continue with the spoilers saying there wasn’t a single point in the game where I was in the need of more ADAM or Harvesting Little Sisters, That is because not every Upgrade was needed, Maybe if the Power to the People terminals used ADAM I would be in the need of more ADAM also that the Bonus you get from saving the little sisters was enough. In fact there are only 2 Plasmids that are totally necessary in the game: Telekinesis and Freeze Ray because you can switch between Incinerate and Electro-ray, so you can pretty much end the game with 3 plasmids.
sheppy @ Sep 6th 2007 11:35PM
Thanks for the spoiler warning... now I can't read the rest of that post. As I said before, I only just now got to Farmers Market and I'm finding this is the type of game that I can't marathon. No clue how far I am. I play for about an hour to an hour and a half 3-4 times a week.
Word of the street. @ Sep 6th 2007 11:53PM
Sheepy if you need any help I can help you, I already beat the game, In fact I'm playing it again in Hard because I missed 4 achievements.
The first 1 is about completing the game in Hard, I screw up 2 achievements in my first play and the other one I don't know WTF?, For some reason the game didn't count it
I'm also in Farmers Market, Is actually pretty easy.
BTW you can do a Speed Run and if you have knowledge of the game an achievement Run, yet finding all the Audio files takes a long time also I like to play the game without guides.
dsub @ Sep 7th 2007 1:00AM
Hey Sheppy. I played Bioshock on my PC.
Anyways...in my opinion, convincing a guy to kill himself so you can steal his loot is totally different from killing a little girl with your bare hands just so you can steal something from her. I won't get into a morality debate here, but I for one felt morally obligated to save all the little sisters. Every time I got a reward for saving them, it made me feel good about what I had done. That is the exact feeling that the developers were trying to get the end-user to experience. I don't see how this supposed "middle ground" will change that in anyway. The only thing I can see them adding would have been the option to "hurt" the little sisters in increments to steal some of their ADAM, but yet again, one would be faced with the same moral issue of harming a child.
dsub @ Sep 7th 2007 1:04AM
Kazi-
I disagree. No matter how you pitch it, there is still just life and death. Even if you are in a coma for 10 years while infected with AIDS and Lung Cancer, your still alive and not dead. We may experience tragedies in our lives such as illness and injury, but in the end, it is black and white. You either live or you die.
Rubang B @ Sep 7th 2007 1:38AM
I haven't played BioShock so I won't be discussing it, but... a game can't claim to have moral choices when it only has one, and it's a fucking BOOLEAN decision.
ADoM is over 10 years old, and it has everything from Lawful Good to Chaotic Neutral, and even that game has 3 major endings, being good, evil, and neutral. And the evil ending isn't a PUNISHMENT, which is the main point here. Choices are pointless if one decision is rewarded and another is punished. Depending on your moral decisions you're allowed certain skill sets which are very important, and if you're evil you work for a different evil god which you try to please through different means, and you rock some more evil sacrifices. You can either save the world or take over the world, or do... something for neutrality... I'm not sure. I suck at the game ok. It's hard as hell. I've been playing it for over a decade and haven't beaten it. And that is another reason why it's the best game ever.
sheppy @ Sep 7th 2007 9:00AM
Wordonthestreet, thanks for the advice but I've yet to solve anything truly taxing. This game is more just walking along with the hand it holds out for you. But if you want, you can add my gamertag to your list. NME Se7eN.
dsub, WHAT? You're telling me using charisma and intelligence stats to convince a person life isn't worth living just so you can get his stuff isn't as evil as pressing X or Y? And a little news flash for you. In Baldur's Gate, no matter how you get his items, whether good or bad, he has the exact same items. They don't penalize you for being bad or hold back the adam when you're good.
But the point remains that you have a clear, distinct choice that is only active after a Big Daddy dies. So what's the big deal? Let's put it this way. I place Proximity Mines in front of a Little Sister so that it activates the Big Daddy. Then I use a couple frag grenades. Despite the splash damage and such, she comes through unscathed and unharmed. Slice it however you want, that makes NO sense. If I was truly given a choice like this, I should be able to headshot the girl from across the room and watch the Big Daddy run around pointlessly and harvest her afterwards. But I can't. The game, in this regard, is limited. And it's the ONLY place where you're given moral questions so the morality of the game is limited.
Crono @ Sep 7th 2007 9:36AM
It isn't a moral dilemma if one choice is cleary right and the other choice is clearly wrong. Everybody knows its wrong to kill little girls and take their stuff. Everybody knows its right to save them.
A real moral dilemma is when you have 2 choices, and the rightness or wrongness of each choice is ambiguous. Thats a moral dilemma. They way this sounds, you might as well pick "good" or "evil" from a menu at the beginning.
Mr Slavio @ Sep 7th 2007 12:19PM
I don't think it was as cut and dry the first time you face the decision. You have the voice on the radio telling you how they are evil creatures and a lost cause, and you're risking your own survival and trading the life of his wife and kids for this abomination. It's still a choice of kill or don't kill, but in the context of the game it's at least a little morally ambiguous.
"Every time I got a reward for saving them, it made me feel good about what I had done. That is the exact feeling that the developers were trying to get the end-user to experience."
**SPOILER**
After the encounter with Ryan, and you find out your role in the whole story, you're at your lowest point in the game. You feel used and worthless, and then you see all the little girls you saved playing in Tenebaum's hideout...that was really moving. I thought the devs did a wonderful job there.
maylon @ Sep 6th 2007 10:45PM
You people so readily agreeing with him are cattle. Are you that feeble minded? It goes from hmmm, what he says makes sense to 'this game is over hyped'. Next thing you will say it outright sucked.
Dan @ Sep 6th 2007 11:01PM
Have you played it? If you have played any other PC shooter then Bioshock doesn't offer very much different other than a medium to high quality back story. Do you really believe that Bioshock deserves the same level of critical acclaim as games like Ocarina of time, Oblivion, GTA and Resident Evil 4? Because its getting better review scores than they did!!!
I'm not denying that its a good game, but for all the reviewers giving it perfect scores, none of them highlighted anything about the game that you can't find in other shooters already available.
And like I said, there are games out there like Oblivion, games like RE4, which were much more revolutionary, much more well executed, and all around of a higher quality.
Word of the street. @ Sep 6th 2007 11:15PM
Is on youtube,what did you expected?,Why don't you go and make a video about how people agrees with anything they watch on youtube so we can all follow you like cattle?
Word of the street. @ Sep 6th 2007 11:00PM
For a second there I thought this was going to be yet another shitty video taken from youtube but it was Funny, not OMGROFLMAO Funny but Haha Funny.
Yeah is easy when you use the Vita Chambers but In my case I never used the Vita chambers, After playing Half-Life and Doom I automatically reload the game when I’m about to die.
Actually is not the Vita chamber what makes the game so easy, Is the Camera. For example before fully researching a Spider-Splinter-(Man) it was nearly impossible to kill but then after you get the +++ damage bonus is just matter of using the "Freeze+Wrench" combo.
I don’t know if a Dead penalty should be implemented or which DP would be the most appropriate for example, charging the whole Chapter like in Gears of War makes it repetitive without making it hard, the old charge and load isn’t that hard either. IMO the best dead penalty would be something like in Guild Wars where you start again but with less health and it is an accumulative penalty so I guess it will make things more interesting.