Silicon Knights makes motion to dismiss Epic counterclaim
SK's lawyers say that Epic's interpretation of an "operable" engine under the license they signed is that Epic could deliver nothing in return for SK's payments, which is what they alleged happened. They also say that Epic's claim that it's in their best interest to support UE3 licensees is a fallacy because "the profits Epic assured for itself by having Gears of War as the marquee title for the Xbox 360 dwarf any gain Epic would receive from Silicon Knights purchasing a subsequent licenses for the Engine." No word yet when a judge will rule on the motion to dismiss.
It's all looking too bad for SK really. The success of BioShock and Ken Levine's own words on the matter of the UE3 show that working with a cutting-edge engine is tough, but that's the path you walk with (at the time starting development) an unproven engine. Epic may have screwed SK, but as more games come out using the UE3, it just seems to highlight SK's ineptitude to manipulate the technology like everyone else seems to have had to do.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
blooh @ Sep 14th 2007 6:15PM
great pic
unosturgis @ Sep 14th 2007 6:28PM
haha looks like when my cats are going at it
kinshadow @ Sep 14th 2007 6:26PM
SK's problem is that they were working on a different type of game than what the other licensees were doing. GoW and Bioshock are both claustriphobic shooters, while Too Human is isometric, more open, and has more enemies visible. UE3 was just oversold to them and not appropriate for their type of game.
hvnlysoldr (NDF - Wind Ring) @ Sep 14th 2007 6:27PM
Which Epic was still all too happy to sell to them.
Zeus the God @ Sep 14th 2007 6:33PM
Uh, UT3 is going to have gigantic, open maps. If they can do it, why can't SK?
AoE @ Sep 14th 2007 7:01PM
Okay, so what about Fatal Inertia? Lost Odyssey? Mass Effect? I could go on and on, take a look at the list of games being developed using the unreal 3 engine:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unreal_engine#Unreal_Engine_3_2
Sure there are a lot of shooters, but there are plenty of other genres represented as well, and even the shooters are not all claustrophobic. No, they weren't oversold on the engines' capabilities... rather their team apparently doesn't have the talent that say Koei for example does (which is sad). If the talent of the team was directly proportional to the size of Dyack's ego, we'd be playing Too Human already. But honestly... I doubt many talented people would want to work with someone like him (at least based on the way he represents himself to the public, he can't be a fun boss to have) so I doubt the best of the best go to SK.
their engineers clearly suck, but it's far easier to point fingers than to man up and admit you blew it.
Anticrawl @ Sep 16th 2007 10:47AM
A0E, all 3 of those games suffered many delays due to developement problems. Coincidence? I think not.
unosturgis @ Sep 14th 2007 6:30PM
To Silicon Knights:
If you want something done right, you got to do it yourself!
sheppy2.0 @ Sep 14th 2007 6:31PM
Engine =/= Game.
Seriously. The engine is 100% how the computer interprets the information and handles the programming. Our own engine is currently handling two games of VERY different styles.
Let's just put it this way. An Engine is like a pencil. A pencil can draw a stick figure, write a letter, or even stab fellow classmates in the eye. But in the end, it's the pencil you purchased, not the drawing, not the writing, and certainly not the intent turn your classmates into cyclops. Silicon Knights was sold a pencil. Their own ineptitude to use the pencil properly is not the fault of the pencil maker.
Attila @ Sep 14th 2007 6:55PM
I thought that in addition to buying a tool, you are also buying support of that tool. It is my understanding that it's the support (or lack thereof) that they are unhappy with.
It seems conceivable that SK got lossy support while other clients got good support.
Fernando Rocker (NDF - Water Ring) @ Sep 14th 2007 7:05PM
Thats teh best pencil analogy evar...
Fernando Rocker (NDF - Water Ring) @ Sep 14th 2007 7:12PM
Thats teh best pencil analogy evar...
sheppy2.0 @ Sep 14th 2007 6:31PM
They've been trying. Too Human is almost as long in the tooth as Duke Nukem Forever.
unosturgis @ Sep 14th 2007 6:36PM
that's true..wasn't this supposed to be an N64 title??
Ian @ Sep 14th 2007 6:49PM
PSX title in 99, then a GC title in 2002 and now a 360 title in never.
Mr Khan @ Sep 14th 2007 7:48PM
And then 2 sequels!
syco @ Sep 14th 2007 6:50PM
Just because 2K managed to hack a good game out of the engine doesn't mean that SK is making stuff up. If Epic did not fulfill their contractual obligations with regard to the engine (either through lack of focus in assisting 3rd parties like SK due to being focused on Gears of War, or due to inherant deficiencies in the engine that, for example, 2K hacked around because they didn't have Microsoft's legal resources at their disposal), then SK is entitled to sue them to get what they paid for.
Example: Say Apple markets an iPod as having two headphone jacks, but when you actually buy it, you only find one. Well, some people are just going to buy a splitter and be done with it, but others will be rightly upset that they were sold one thing and given another.
This is basically where SK is coming from here.
sheppy2.0 @ Sep 15th 2007 12:31AM
Fact of the matter, syco, Silicon Knights entire basis is going into the idea that Epic focused entirely on Gears Of War instead of UE3. Which is to say, false. Many developers have come forward and given the official stance on UE3 and it's usuages. As a licensee, you have completely free access to their FTP server which contains up to the minute revisions of of the UE3 that are not a sure thing when it comes to stability and access to a biweekly "stable" drop. Silicon Knights says, because Gears Of War was able to be finished and their own 1999 Cyberpunk Samurai magnum opus turned norse mythology game has so many issues, obviously it's not their fault and Epic neglected to support "Make Magic Awesome Happy Game Fucking Work" command in their API.
Now, an Engine is not a complete project. Never has been and never will be. Likewise, and Engine is a starting point, not a finishing point, which is what Dennis Dyack claims. After all, just because you buy ZBrush doesn't mean the developer has to make your artwork and frankly speaking, to test and expand an engine, you DO need a project to work on and Gears was that project. Whether SK admits it or not, all of the UE3 liscensees benefited from Gear because getting stuff to work right there got added into the engine they licensed. Just as UT3 will be benefitting UE3.
Now, having said that, there was already a large amount of work accomplished on Too Human before they licensed UE3 so who's to say it was Epic's fault on this engine and not SK shoving their own incompatible code into the game?
Shagittarius @ Sep 14th 2007 6:56PM
Totally off topic but while looking through peoples profiles to see their first post I came across this old nugget of an article, Date, Marry, Kill...seems like we all still have the same opinion we did back then?
http://www.joystiq.com/2007/02/15/date-marry-or-kill-the-current-console-crop/1#comments
Matt B (SDF - White Gold Ring) @ Sep 14th 2007 7:11PM
I forgot about the hatred toward the PS3 3 months after launch. I didn't even have one at the time of that post. I'm so glad I didn't listen to the haters.
tactics @ Sep 14th 2007 7:13PM
(off-topic)
maybe i did start off a little shy... but i came into my own:
"Sony president says no 'immediate plans' for PS3 price cut
Joystiq
Jul 6th 2007 11:47AM i think they need to take a different strategy, actually. if they *raise* the price, they can reinforce the idea they've been driving home all along: that ps3 really is more powerful than its competitors, and that it's actually worth much more than they've been asking for it.
sony: you should raise the price of the ps3 at *least* 100$ so that the procrastinators will feel a sense of urgency and buy it immediately before it goes up again! after all, the ps3 is such an impressive piece of hardware... they're obviously short-changing themselves with this ridiculously low price point. it needs to go *up*. then maybe people will realize what a great deal it is!
a 100$ price increase is the best thing they could do to spur interest and make people finally realize the true POTENTIAL of the ps3!
-"superfan" tactics."
Fernando Rocker (NDF - Water Ring) @ Sep 14th 2007 7:14PM
Still, after almost a year since the PS3 launch, almost everyone seems to hate the PS3.
It may be a good movie player and a good protein folder machine, but a suking gaming machine. Have fun with Lair and bad framrate multiplatform games, noobs.
Mr Khan @ Sep 14th 2007 11:15PM
Well, i had to switch accounts at the conversion to a password system (for some reason, at that point, it shortened my name from Mr. Khan to Khan, something about the "." probably, why its not there now)
So i wouldn't be able to find my first post, although it think it was made in June 2006
Only way i've changed is i've become more mild, many posters have toned down quite a bit. Yourself, Shagi, and Fernando are ideal examples
Defenestrator2.0 @ Sep 14th 2007 11:43PM
Looks like PS3 is going the way of the PSP to me. Proprietary bullshit forced on you, and nothing but ports.
Ford Tang @ Sep 14th 2007 7:36PM
I can't really see how they aren't extracting decent results from the game engine. The Preview they showed looked pretty decent. Not the best, but the graphics and atmosphere looked great. If they can do that, I'm sure they can make a decent game out of it.
Diskoboy @ Sep 14th 2007 8:49PM
Time to break out the squirt bottle....... ;)
Ralod @ Sep 14th 2007 10:25PM
Lets face it, Dennis Dyack and SK are whiny bitches. First they bitch at the press, then they bitch at the fans, now there bitching at epic. It seems there in the mindset to blame everyone but themselves for the miserable failure there studio and game have become.
I am no fan of Epic, really, but the evidence of other studios using the engine, and making great games out of it has to say something does it not?
heckthor @ Sep 15th 2007 3:12AM
Why is everybody commenting on the story while all the attention should be given to the picture.... ITS PRICELESS... I Laughed for about 4mins just looking at the picture... why is everybody so caught up with stories that are not even interesting anyways... picture=PRICELESS Story= NOT SO MUCH.
King Dong @ Sep 15th 2007 3:31AM
Most of Bioshock's development was done in UE 2.5, I really wish you guys made that clearer.
ZippyDSMlee @ Sep 16th 2007 7:40AM
And it shows >>
crashes,iffy mouse support uhg...
Haritori @ Sep 16th 2007 9:52AM
@Zippy, but it still is a best selling title that rocks, and looks garphically great, so as long as were having a load of fun playing does that matter?
LaughingTarget @ Sep 16th 2007 5:40PM
BioShock has been nothing but awesome on my PC, especially since it apparently has some dual-core support. 7 second loads are nice.
Anyway, isn't this an inherent problem when a game is in development too long? Keep switching engines around, things are bound to get difficult. I seriously doubt SK scrapped everything on Too Human every time they switched platforms. I'd not be terribly surprised if PS1 code was still lingering around in there somewhere. That would defenitely cause issues. Don't put diesel in an unleaded car.
Sean @ Sep 17th 2007 11:29AM
Kitties!