Lair dev berates motion controls ... in other games
by Kyle Orland 
{ Sep 18th 2007 at 12:28PM }
What's good for the goose is good for the gander, they say, but what's good for the dragon isn't necessarily good for the jet fighter. At least that's what Factor 5 president Julian Eggebrecht seems to be saying. In an interview with GamesRadar, the Lair developer said the motion controls in Incognito's Warhawk are, and we're quoting here, "eurgh!!"Eggebrecht explained that while desperately twisting the controller like a goon is a perfectly fine way to control a dragon, it just doesn't work for Warhawk's high powered jets. "I see motion-sensing as a complimentary, additional new step in terms of controls and where it fits you should use it and where it doesn't fit, don't force it," he said. "Please don't force it." Interesting he should put it that way ... while Warhawk's motion-sensitive flight controls can be turned off in the options menu, controller twisting is the only option for Lair's dragon flight. Forced indeed.
Eggebrecht isn't just hurling insults, though -- he seems to really believe in this plane/dragon control dichotomy. In a separate GamesRadar story on the vague possibility of a new Rouge Squadron game, Eggebrecht said he didn't think the motion controls would work for the series' futuristic flying machines. "If I was to do a game with an X-wing, I don't know if I'd necessarily use motion control," he said. "It might be [analog] stick, because that is how you'd be controlling the craft - it might be more appropriate." But for dragons? Fuggedaboutit!
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Shagittarius @ Sep 18th 2007 12:33PM
How about instead, 'Don't put casual controls in a hardcore game!'
megaStryke @ Sep 18th 2007 12:34PM
Damn. Shagi wasted NO time pissing about motion controls across the board without any leeway whatsoever. Very open-minded.
Ska Oreo @ Sep 18th 2007 1:19PM
sigh,
I'm not gonna waste my time.
Zertoss @ Sep 18th 2007 12:33PM
Hahahahaha stfu Eggman.
T3H WICKERMAN @ Sep 18th 2007 12:37PM
Shut this fuckin frog up! Hes just trying to get attention for lair I guess. You mad 1 good rougesquadron and thats it asshole you are not david jaffe, or anyone else. you and the earthworm jim twat,suck it and shut up.
Fullmetal Salchemist @ Sep 18th 2007 12:42PM
Actually, they made two good Rogue Squadron games, and one that was "aiight."
Fullmetal Salchemist @ Sep 18th 2007 12:41PM
Actually, they made two good Rogue Squadron games, and one that was "aiight."
T3H WICKERMAN @ Sep 18th 2007 1:10PM
The controls on the cube sucked,imo. Not to mention it was hard to see distant fighters in space, and I hated having to use the night vision i mean nav comp to see em. Hassle. Had a few good missions but was sullied by these things. Rouge Squadron 64ftw!
pwnetheus @ Sep 18th 2007 12:43PM
At least Warhawk is playable... and fun...
Poisoned Al @ Sep 18th 2007 4:21PM
...and isn't over-hyped or has a huge stiffy for itself.
WiseGuy @ Sep 18th 2007 12:44PM
Ha ha. That's funny. Didn't WarHawk recieve better reviews than Lair buddy?!? Seems someone is a little worked up over lack of development effort on their own game.
SamTheHappyEmo @ Sep 18th 2007 1:07PM
Actually, I'm more prone to suggest it's due to sub-standard technology and pressure from Sony to implement the controls.
Also: because you can't express an opinion on the internet without stressing your position, I don't have and have no interest in obtaining a PlayStation 3.
JL @ Sep 18th 2007 3:10PM
And I base this on absolutely nothing.
F1 @ Sep 18th 2007 12:46PM
Such a petty effort...
aristokrat @ Sep 18th 2007 12:46PM
In all fairness, a plane is controlled with a joystick (or joystiq?), so there is a correlation to the motion of the analog stick, whereas a dragon would be controlled with reins, so if one wanted to replicate the motion, controller tilting does make some sense. Just because his particular implementation of it didn't work, doesn't make the point less valid necessarily.
hvnlysoldr @ Sep 18th 2007 1:01PM
I think gamers want to control dragons not be dragon riders.
OnimushaSoki @ Sep 18th 2007 12:48PM
Oliver: "This isn't a war; its an extermination. This is like humans fighting maggots. Or dragons fighting wolves. Or humans on dragons throwing wolves at maggots."
Phranctoast @ Sep 18th 2007 1:52PM
nice. gotta love scary movie 4.
aristokrat @ Sep 18th 2007 12:48PM
In all fairness, a plane is controlled with a joystick (or joystiq?), so there is a correlation to the motion of the analog stick, whereas a dragon would be controlled with reins, so if one wanted to replicate the motion, controller tilting does make some sense. Just because his particular implementation of it didn't work, doesn't make the point less valid necessarily.
aristokrat @ Sep 18th 2007 12:49PM
Yay for the double post!
Word of the street(IDF-Digital Ruler). @ Sep 18th 2007 12:49PM
In soviet Russia Hypocrites criticize you!
lessbiasedthanmost @ Sep 18th 2007 12:51PM
So far I'm unimpressed with the implementation of motion controls on both the Wii and the PS3. The "hardcore" games I've played on the Wii had shitty motion controls that were indeed tacked on (Twilight Princess). The only games I've played for PS3, that had motion controls, also had their motion controls tacked on (Ninja Gaiden Sigma). So until I am shown a game that
lessbiasedthanmost @ Sep 18th 2007 12:53PM
I hate it when I do that....
Anyway, until I'm shown a good game that makes their motion controls worth a damn I'm gonna have to say motion controls are not worth the effort.
-prepares for the flames-
Fernando Rocker (NDF - Water Ring) @ Sep 18th 2007 12:59PM
Well, at least the pointer capabilities are finally very well implemented (Metroid Prime 3).
OnimushaSoki @ Sep 18th 2007 1:11PM
Mind you, it's still reasonably early for both systems in terms of motion(and soon rumble on both)controlled gameplay development ... but I'd say both systems have at least a handful of games that the motion controls were feasible.
It's always going to feel tacked on, simply because it's a "gimmick immersion" when most gamers have simply used a gamepad or joystick for the majority of their experience.
warioswoods @ Sep 18th 2007 1:18PM
Twilight Princess was, of course, developed for the 'Cube and then had motion controls added - so they are somewhat tacked on, that can be taken for granted. To see motion controls well implemented from the ground up, play Metroid.
The PS3's implementation of motion control is lazy if you ask me - it's the same design approach Sony has for everything: keep the same basic layout, and tack on new features. Motion control doesn't make much sense when you're holding a traditional gamepad. I tried that years ago when I purchased the Microsoft Sidewinder, and it was the most awkward setup imaginable. If you're going to try to push control in a new direction, you need to design the controlller with that in mind from the ground up. The Wii remote's shape makes perfect sense for motion controls - but tacking them onto a normal (sneslayout+n64analog+n64rumble) dualshock is a failure from the outset.
Vidikron @ Sep 18th 2007 1:37PM
@warioswoods
I have to disagree with you on the controller designs. I don't really see how Sony using motion controls in a traditional design is lazy and the Wii's TV remote controller is somehow better. The Wiimote's shape is better for it because it has a pointer built-in, but the PS3 doesn't use any light-gun type application.
Also, the Wiimote's overall design is crap. For example, have you played MP3? The aiming controls work great, but the game really highlights that the button placement is horrendous. Having to reach for the +/- and 1 buttons all the time is NOT comfortable. They are in horrible positions when holding the Wiimote like that. Even hitting down on the D-pad isn't the most convenient thing, though not as bad as the others. Then take a game like SPM that forces you to hold the Wiimote sideways. Holding the Wiimote sideways is another inconvenient and non-ergonomic position. The physical shape is clearly meant for holding it like a TV remote and is simply not ergonomic sideways.
Anyway, bash Sony and their remote all you want, but the Wiimote has hordes of flaws itself.
warioswoods @ Sep 18th 2007 2:00PM
No, the Wii remote certainly has flaws, but it is still far better suited to motion control than anything else on the market, and not just when pointing. Waving something that you hold in a wand-like fashion in one hand is simply more intuitive than stretching your wrists to tilt and push a gamepad.
While it has some flaws, the Wii remote still highlights Nintendo's basic strategies regarding control that I, for one, applaud. One of the most prominent of those strategies is a simple maxim: different actions in the game should feel different. The N64 controller and the Gamecube controller both received criticism from some who didn't like the odd, asymmetrical design, but it makes sense when you try it out - having one very large button that feels primary, for instance, while having a smaller secondary button you can roll your thumb over feels better than each button being identical as it is on the dualshock series. The shoulder buttons have a slow press that senses depth, while the z-trigger is faster. You get the idea - each type of action in a game feels very different when using such a controller, and it's a better experience than simply mapping a series of identical buttons to different actions.
Secondly, this reminds me a bit of reactions I've seen to the iPod in the past. It's true that other players on the market have a better list of features when you put them on paper side by side - however, that misses the appeal of the iPod and its source of success. Regardless of how many features some other player may glue together haphazardly, the features and the interface of the iPod (generally) make perfect sense. I don't care much for carrying my whole library of music around so I only have a Nano, but I see its great appeal in the interface when I'm navigating the menus rapidly with one thumb.
Features are meaningless if they don't fit together into an intuitive whole. Granted, the Wii is far from perfection according to this rubric, but I would argue that it's still far closer than the PS3. Then again, there's a market out there for both.
Burnt Meatloaf @ Sep 19th 2007 5:06AM
It wouldn't be so bad if developers just stopped using the controller like a steering wheel.
Todd @ Sep 18th 2007 12:52PM
How about the option, motion control or analog, found among the options.
Apparently game designers loathe options.
KiraXD @ Sep 18th 2007 12:54PM
not to mention sensitivity adjustments you can use in warhawk, and the fact that its actually possible to do 180 degree turns in warhawk (very nicely i might add) oh and the option to use Sixaxis OR analogue sticks...
i love the motion controls on warhawk... in a feel like a spastic epileptic when i go from warhwawks to lairs sixaxis. (lair is a good game once you get the hang of it.... but warhawk is leaps and bounds better)
NATO_Duke @ Sep 18th 2007 12:56PM
Normal I would atack this, but now I want a job working on Lair 2!
Apparently you guys have a free hallucinogenic drug program at work.
Mark Gillespie @ Sep 18th 2007 1:00PM
Not having played Lair, I can't comment, but I have played Warhawk, and the sizaxis control works VERY well, I am stunned by how accurate and responsive it is.
I think this is just sour grapes from the developer. I really hope Factor 5 are working on a patch right now, to make Lair work as good as Warhawk with the SixAxis, it would cetaintly bump up the game scores significantly, as that's most peoples only criticism of the game.
Poisoned Al @ Sep 18th 2007 7:39PM
That and the targeting system... and the camera... and the crappy timed missions... and failing them though no fault of your own... and, well you get the idea.
HineyWipe @ Sep 18th 2007 1:00PM
Oh yeah, well stop forcing me to get your goddamn achievements with online play too. I feel like a monkey trying to get my money's worth.
20 years from now, I'll not only have motion sickness, but I'll arthritis too.
sp @ Sep 18th 2007 3:05PM
not to mention random verb omission.
ill trooper @ Sep 18th 2007 1:01PM
The motion control in Warhawk is cool... I started using it late so I'm not totally used to it, but it allows for another level of control over flight, so you can use the one joystick for gun aiming and straffing, rather than just for flight control, with an aiming reticule fixed in the direction you're facing. My friend opted to use it from day one and swears by it.
Just sayin'.
mccomber @ Sep 18th 2007 1:03PM
Only game I've played where I really enjoyed the implementation of motion controls was for the aftertouch found in Heavenly Sword. It's the only time I've found them to feel intuitive, fun and actually adding to the experience; you know, the right reasons for them to be included. And, it's also optional for those who aren't so inclined to use them.
Warhawk (at least in the beta, can't remember if it's in the final build for sure) did another thing really well with the motion controls beyond making them optional (there's that word again!), and that was giving you settings to adjust it. Sensitivity and neutral-point adjustments should be mandatory from here on out.
JL @ Sep 18th 2007 3:20PM
I completely agree with you on the aftertouch controls. That part where Kai has to protect Shen was great fun.
baby sea tuna @ Sep 18th 2007 1:12PM
Rouge Squadron? Is that like Elite Beat Agents, but with makeup? Or is it Pol Pot's special forces?
T3H WICKERMAN @ Sep 18th 2007 1:13PM
and dogs that shoot bees out of their mouths at dragons.
hvnlysoldr @ Sep 18th 2007 1:20PM
Smithers, send out the Simmons bot.
Shake Shake Shake. Shake your booty!
T3H WICKERMAN @ Sep 18th 2007 1:13PM
I love it when the reply doesnt post.
Knight Marquise @ Sep 18th 2007 1:14PM
Egg, meet face.
Cellien @ Sep 18th 2007 1:33PM
eggface.
J.Goodwin @ Sep 18th 2007 1:17PM
Rouge Squadron: it's Factor 5's game for EA, set in the Marvel Universe during the Children of the Vault storyline.
I'm looking forward to epic sky battles against Aguja.
J.Goodwin @ Sep 18th 2007 1:19PM
Bah.
That so doesn't work. I am fail.
Mr Khan @ Sep 18th 2007 5:14PM
no, no
Rouge Squadron is the sequel to Knuckles' Chaotix, a squadron of "attractive-to-furries" bats that have to hunt for treasure
gullum @ Sep 18th 2007 1:28PM
The only people who complained about the motion controls in Lair were the dimwits who couldn't grasp them. Unfortunately that ended up being people who were reviewing the game.
The controls in Lair feel intuitive and easy while the ones in Warhawk feel tacked on. He has a right to say that since its true. Not to take anything away from Warhawk, the game is a blast.
megaStryke @ Sep 18th 2007 1:43PM
The delusion continues. Apparently, EVERYONE who said bad things about Lair's controls, which wound up being, well, ALMOST everyone, must OBVIOUSLY not know what they were doing. Intuitive means that the controls are easy to grasp by the majority of people. Lair is not intuitive.