Croal: Metroid should never have gone 3D

Am I the only person that didn't have a problem reading the wire frame maps..?

No, I found them very easy to read..

I completely disagree. I've heard Croal mention in passing that he has difficulty finding his way around in the Prime series, due in part to the complexity of a 3D map, but also seemingly because the guy has no sense of direction in a 3d environment from a first-person perspective. Sounds like he'd have trouble getting anywhere in real life. He says that in first-person shooters he knows which way is forward because that's where the enemies are. I say forward is the way that has the door that is not the one you just came in through.

Anyway, bashing the 3D map is dumb, honestly. It's not an easy thing to pull off, so considering that, I think it works perfectly fine. And how the hell can you complain about a map in the first place when the first two Metroids didn't have maps at all? Maybe you should go back to making your own maps if you don't like those that are provided for you.

And as far as the Metroid Prime games not being REAL 3D Metroid games... Seriously, that argument is SO last-gen. So you don't do a flip every time you jump forward, big deal. It still has the best platforming ever achieved in a first-person game, and nearly every other aspect of the 2-D games has been retained perfectly, or improved upon in some way.

Prime is a great series, and a great addition to the Metroid saga. It is a true Metroid experience in every way that a 3D take on the series can be. I've got lots of respect for Croal, but he shouldn't blame the game if he's got issues with navigation.

I have to disagree, I thought that Prime 3 was the closest thing we've ever seen to a 3D version of Super Metroid. Still not completely there perhaps, but between the wall jump, space jump (though the 5 jump limit sucks), etc it felt very familiar and good. The 3D maps are a bit counter-intuitive, but I feel like thats a UI issue more than a problem with the idea, perhaps a future version will allow for a more intuitive way to navigate the maps. The area that gave me by far the most trouble there was the Space Pirate planet, definitely a few areas I had to zoom, pan, rotate extensively to fully grasp the paths I needed.

Like Bioshock, MP3 is a game so incredibly polished that its weaknesses might feel a bit glaring at times, but thats only because they stand in such contrast with its strengths. I think its more than a bit too strong to say it should never have been made.

I love MP3, but the truth is that my wife won't let me play if she's at home because she get all dizzy watching it.

I don't know if I'm not very good at it, or if the movement is too much. All I know is that I have to pretend I'm sick to stay at home and play!! ;-)

I totally agree. I played Super Metroid on VC recently and then went to play Prime 3. I felt something was definately lost.

For those of you jonesing for a more classic backtracker (I call it a "prerequisite puzzle"), go play the side-scrolling Castlevanies starting at Symphony of the Night and going forward.

I much prefer the Prime games. "We admit we have big problems with the 3D maps, too, which hampers exploration significantly" Cmon, those maps were easy to read. I had more problem reading the maps in Super Metroid. And creating a bigger 3D world really puts the player into the situation and feeling of desperation and loneliness at times. Metroid is easily better in 3D.

"The emphasis on storytelling (via scanning) and the reduced platforming required of a first-person game make for a fundamentally different experience from a real Metroid game."

Super Metroid Storyline: Weapon upgrade, weapon upgrade, suit upgrade, ooh a crashed ship, I wonder why that's there? Weapon upgrade, suit upgrade, final boss, end.

Log scan lore (and actual conversations with NPCs in Prime 2/3) are a damn sight better than having some faceless planet that I land on and kill everything before leaving. Super Metroid is still one of my favorite games but the Prime series tells a story, which I would much rather have.

You're just wrong Wii Fanboy... You are simply wrong.

Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly (with the other commenters...). I can see where people may think that backtracking is better with a side-scroll view, but I know that in "Super Metroid," I've still had to travel a _long_ way back to find something I'd missed earlier. I'm having to do a heck of a lot of backtracking in "MP3" right now, but I'm now going to places I hadn't gone before, or hitting things I'd missed because I didn't have the correct weapon upgrade. Sure, I have to watch a few loading screens before going back, but having different weapons almost makes each planet a bit newer when I visit them again.

From my perspective, "MP3" is as much a "Metroid" game as any 3-D version can be. If Croal wants to play an on-rails shooter that doesn't involve any exploration, perhaps he should pick up an old copy of "DOOM"...or "Halo 3," for that matter... :-P

You and Croal are crazy fools. That is all. Doesn't feel like you're playing a Metroid game, lol! I agree with PaulAtredies; "You're just wrong Wii Fanboy... You are simply wrong."

No way. I admit that maybe this latest edition has added new emphasis to combat, and maybe at the expense of exploration... but I don't think there's anything inherently unexplorable about 3D. Quite the contrary, 3D is the best way to emulate real life exploring -- the challenge of looking around for something you might not have noticed.

I miss the jumping. But it's still there in toned down form. And kind of like the morph ball scenes, there's no reason they couldn't re-emphasize them as some kind of 2D-3D hybrid.

These games, you're moving between entire planets, finding passages every which way...

Nah, you're just way off. If Metroid has become less exploring-oriented, it has nothing to do with 3D.

C'mon guys, you're being really immature now. Just cause you disagree with them (and me) doesn't mean you have to flame them. Respect their opinions.

And acctually, I agree. For some reason I find it harder to navigate in Metroid Prime and I find the map kind of stupid too. I feel like MP's different "rooms" are dull and lack detailed and therefore they don't stand out.
I never get the feeling I get when playing Super Metroid either.

It's hard to explain why but I just find Metroid Prime to be kinda dull and slow. Sorry, but that's my opinion.

I love the Metroid Prime Series. That said, I have also loved the others. I think I would be very happy if they continued making these games, but they are taking a Metroid break over at Retro Studios. Oh well. In the mean time, I think a DS sidescroller in the same vein as NSMB would be awesome. As in, 2.5D. I am a big 2.5d proponent. As far as I know, NSMB is the only one for DS. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Anyone else wish there were more 2.5d games?

Yeh, we all know that Metroid Prime sucks. I mean it's only ranked 3rd best game of ALL time. This guy is an idiot! Of course going from 2D to 3D is gonna be different, but Retro did an amazing job with the transition. I love both Super Metroid (Metroid Fusion, Zero Mission, and the redunculously hard original Metroid) and Metroid Prime (1&3, and I guess 2). I think they should continue to release both 2D (handhelds and Wiiware) and 3D Metroid. Pretty soon this moron is gonna start talking about how stupid Zelda Ocarina of Time is because of the 2D to 3D transition.

To those of you who read the post and offered thoughtful responses, either in agreement or disagreement: thanks! Discussion is rad.

To those of you who thought I said that Prime sucks, and responded accordingly, go back and read again. Not everything's binary, duders.

The Metroid Prime series is completed, and what a series it was.

I wouldn't be against Nintendo taking the reins again and making a 2.5 D game at this point, for the Wii or the DS. The Metroid franchise should be flexible, like Zelda or Mario. Invent, explore, innovate, use the franchise to flagship new gaming experiences. Look at Mario 64, DK Jungle Beat, Zelda: Phantom Hourglass, and Metroid Prime for great examples of how Nintendo takes an established franchise and uses it to push the limits of (or re-invent entirely) a particular genre.

Nintendo has always used their great franchises to do this.

Really, Metroid Primes aren't "real" Metroid games? The only Metroid game I like more than Prime is Super Metroid. Obviously it's all a matter of opinion, but I think Fusion deviated from the Metroid core way more than the Prime series ever did.

I can agree with them that Metroid shouldn't have gone 3D if you look at the Metroid Prime SERIES, but the very first Metroid Prime game was very much a Metroid game to me. The other two... not so much.

Metroid Prime was EVERYTHING a Metroid game is, complete with different beams and weapons, a non-linear environment, and a BUNCH of hard to find suit expansions (it was actually THIS YEAR that I decided to FINALLY 100% that game).

Many scans, save for bosses, are actually OPTIONAL. What advantage it did have though, was that it replaced the X-ray visor's, and Power Bomb's role in Super Metroid in that when you use it, you can tell what objects in the room are destroyable with what weapon.

Even though the game told you where to go if you wanted it to (There IS an option to turn off the hint system), there was A LOT of exploration to do. Each room you went into felt new, exciting, and a little scary. Given that it wasn't a hallway (even if it was sometimes), you would wonder, how would I get past this room? Are there any suit upgrades here? What lies beyond this room? And you would enter rooms with many different pathways. It was the least linear of the three Prime games, staying true to its roots as a Metroid game.

There were a few things that Prime 2 and 3 added to attempt to get closer to a Metroid game. Prime 2 added the Screw Attack which added the Space Jump and Wall Jump with it. A good addition, though late in the game and in a game that offered less exploration than the first Prime (though I'd have to say Prime 2 had a MUCH larger map than Prime 1 and Prime 3, from what I remember). Prime 3 added the stacked beams idea from the 2D Metroid games, though Prime 3 was EVEN MORE linear than Prime 2 and felt like the worlds were small in itself (you do realized that the most of the time you're spending in each room is due to the fact that there are a BUNCH of enemies annoying you).

Had Prime 1 had the Screw Attack, stacked beams, and didn't have, what IGN calls, the "fetch quest", it would have been EXACTLY Metroid in 3D. It even had an "escape from space station" scene, which was easy, but really stayed with its roots... I'd say, combine Prime 1's non-linear gameplay and suits (Varia and Gravity, the latter of which we missed in Prime 3), Prime 2's really large areas and tough bosses, and Prime 3's weapon system and Wiimote controls, stick Mother Brain and an escape scene at the end, and you have Super Metroid in 3D... I mean... if that's really what you want.

HUh, Metroid Prime was everything classic 2D metroid is...in 3D. That and so much more. I still believe it's one of the best examples of a 2D to 3D translation ever made. this is not an easy thing. Looking at Castlevania that never truly made a great jump to 3D. The reality is Metroid Prime IS Metroid. The Wiimote controls solidifies this. I'm hoping Nintendo re-releases Prime and Prime2: Echos with wiimote controls. I'd play through them again just for the superior controls alone.

Croal...such a funny funny guy....you sir...are totally wrong

Strongly disagree...having played a couple of Metroid handheld titles and Metroid Prime (have yet to get very far in 3, no time), Metroid Prime is very much the closest experience to Super Metroid. Big drama, isolation, backtracking, excitement on weapon/upgrade collection, great bosses. I think Metroid Prime (I didn't like the second one very much) is very much a Metroid title.

I was a huge fan of the 2D series and when I heard about them going 3D I thought "ugh, why?!?! that can't be good!" I thought it would be impossible to keep the 'feel' of the old games in a 3D environment.

Well I was wrong, and so is Wiifanboy. When playing Metroid: Prime, I was shocked to discover the feel was very very close to the original series. It's an amazing transition of a 2D series. It keeps the feel and mechanics of the old games, but took it to a new level. And it keeps an homage to the 2D series when it switches to 2D mode while doing ball-form puzzles.

The Prime games are not just good games, but good Metroid games.

Metroid Prime's maps were infinitely easier to read than Super Metroid

If only because they ACTUALLY SHOWED DOORS on the MP maps, not just rooms like in Super Metroid.

But seriously, that is easily the easiest statement to disagree with since "If it can't fit, you must acquit"

I could not disagree more with Croal. While I loved the original metroid games, they did not come truly into the realm of masterpiece for me until they entered the realm of the additional dimension. They are simply the best translation of two dimensions to three I have ever seen.

When I first heard of the metroid prime take on the legendary Metroid series in 3D I thought it could never work and was very disrespectful. I WAS WRONG, I first tried MP2:E then tried MP. Echoes was better and more difficult than prime but both i say took metroid to the next level,then MP3:C came out and made metroid the greatest fps to be made,due to the revolutionary controls and story. BASICALLY IT STAYS TRUE TO THE ROOTS, IN FACT IT MAKES A FOREST.

I'm sorry but to be honest NOTHING ELSE CAN BE DONE in 2D.

I know thats shocking but they took it all the way they could in Super. Zero Mission combined the better aspects of FUsion and Super but it was still the same game. 2d metroid is a dry well that really has very little room for improvement. 3d is such a refreshing take on series, Prime 3 how they did the different ship locations in the map helped backtracking allot, and you can lock your map in position with L which helped allot.

I'll add this to my original post.

If the Prime series doesn't have enough backtracking or exploration, it has NOTHING to do with the game being 3D. (Except maybe some kind of development cost thing, but that's pretty indirect, and you'd be grasping for straws.)

There is absolutely no reason they couldn't introduce more backtracking in future Metroid games and still have the 3D experience. You can find a certain amount of exploration in some of the Resident Evil games, some of the 3D RPGs, even Grand Theft Auto. Mario 64 was a very explorable game, with immense replay value for certain levels.

There is no reason a 3D game can't involve a lot of exploration. Maybe some of the Prime games have a little less, but that's something curable.

The only thing you're missing is the jumping. Which they could easily re-introduce. Mario 64 is all about jumping, and Metroid Prime could easily do this for certain scenes.

I had trouble with the 3D map, too. I adjust it until it's 2D, and voila. Just spin it around until it's 2D.

I generally think Croal is very astute in writing and talking about games, but his opinion is miles away from mine on this. I think the first Prime is the best game in the Metroid series since the original Metroid for the NES. It has the same lonely mood and exploration, but in stunning 3D. (Not to bash other people here, but for me Super Metroid is a good follow-up but a vastly overrated game, it is to the original game as Echoes is to Prime). I gotta think that, as Astrozombie said up in comment 3, Croal's problem is 3D environments in general, but he is putting the blame on the game.

Couldn't disagree with you more. I consider myself a hardcore Metroid fan. I relished Metroid II and Super Metroid when they were brand new, so much so that at 10 years old I begged my parents to buy me a NES just so I could play the original. When Metroid Prime came out I was skeptical that the series could make the jump but my doubts were shattered when I finally stepped into the suit for Prime. The title oozed Metroid from the enemies to the silent cut-scenes to the style and setting of the game. Scanning and first-person combat didn't step away from the Metroid formula, they evolved it. Scanning was a perfect way to deepen the story and the Metroid universe in general without losing the brilliant atmosphere that made the original titles so great. I'm not telling anyone to agree with me but the Prime series is absolutely genius as Metroid titles and on their own.

Agreed, though I think croal is just lazy , complaining that he has to do this and that in order to get the items needed or go to a certain path for prime,what's the rush its a first person adventure, and exploration is the name of the game, and it stays true to the rest of the metroid series. Plus, theres that "hint" and tell you where to go..

April Foo--- wait, it's September.

I totally agree with the other 31 comments.

I, for one, am glad Metroid made the jump to 3D. The Prime games have excellent story lines and visuals. They are so much more engaging. Plus, there is no shortage of exploration. The worlds are so much more awe-inspiring and they are very diverse. The environments in the sidescrolling Metroid games don't compare.

The Metroid Prime games downright rock.

MP3 is by far the most engaging and thrilling Metroid yet.

I suppose I get to be devil's advocate here. I think both the article and the commenters here are wrong.

The Metroid series would have languished in 2D, but at the same time, an essential piece of the Metroid puzzle was lost with the Prime series. The first-person shooter aspect is just one piece of the puzzle. The game tried to be a little edgier and add some cliched plot elements like super-empowering goo. While there was plenty of backtracking, I thought the maps lacked sophistication - except for the Chozo area each map was fairly linear, particularly the mines. Adding darkness and suspense felt out of place for the series too - its something much more in place in the FPS genre. Its not something that was really present in Metroid and Super Metroid, which focused more on puzzle solving and enemies-as-puzzle-elements.

The more I hear about the supposed virtues of Super Metroid, the more I find myself agreeing with Comstock that Super Metroid is overrated.

Think of it like this. Few people would disagree that the Metroid Prime series has dumbed down the original Metroid. Admittedly, Metroid Prime, to take one of the series, is more "fun," colorful, story-filled, and atmospheric. However, the challenges are no where near as great as those presented by the original Metroid.

This tradition of making the game easier, perhaps more "playable," began with Super Metroid and reached its culmination in the form of Fusion.

Whether or not Prime is taken to be a genuine Metroid game depends on what you take to be the most essential aspect of the game itself. If you think exploration and desolation are most important, then you have to say that the original Metroid is unmatched. If you think that storyline is most important, then is it the saccharine story-line of Super Metroid or is it the intricate story conveyed through scans in the Prime series? If you think that a sustained level of perplexity (through puzzles and enemies) is most important, then the Prime series best exemplifies this. If you think an environment most conducive to and exploitative of a wide variety of powerups is most important, then is it Super Metroid or the Prime series?

The point is that Super Metroid and the Prime series are both serious contenders here. So, what is it about Super Metroid that makes it superior--not simply as a game among others, but as a Metroid game? And what is it about the Prime series that makes it something other than a Metroid game?

I should have added that I take exploration and desolation to be *the* criterion of a genuine Metroid game. This is what we mean when we declare Metroid a first person adventure. If I am right, then this makes all subsequent installments (other than Zero Mission and, as is my controversial opinion, Prime 2) adulterated versions of the game. If we think we have reason to throw out the Prime series, then we risk throwing out Super Metroid as well.

"Adding darkness and suspense felt out of place for the series too - its something much more in place in the FPS genre."

Metroid was a pretty dark game even on the NES. I'm not sure if it was intended, but I remember the game scaring me just a little when I was a kid. Didn't stop me from playing it. But the experience was kind of a lonely one. They've managed to keep that in the entire series.

The only thing they've really lost is the jumping puzzles. I wasn't crazy about that. But I feel like a few tall canyons couldn't hurt, either. There's nothing about 3D that makes jumping puzzles impossible. Mario 64 has some of the best jumping ever. Maybe we could see its return in a future game.

At any rate, the problem is not 3D. Sure there are some choices they made along the way that resulted in some changes to the franchise, but nothing was prohibited by going to 3D.

To me, the 2D Metroid games have been about mood, isolation, fast exacting motion via spot on controlls, and the sense of freedom that goes with it. They also gone out of their way to center on how awesome the powersuit is by allowing you to move distances and speeds rivaled by no other 2D game. This important distinction has not make the transition to 3D.

They 2D games (not including the new GBA releases) have also been about passive, or implied story "telling" - leaving room for the imagination, and not interupting player control. The scenes near the end of Super Metroid with the baby metroid are a perfect example of seamless "cut scenes" that still involve the player's existing set of controls. I found it to be much more immersive and engaging than the more intrusive methods of having gameplay suspended while voice or text is played back.

I find myself enjoying the prime games only because of its artwork, music, sounds, and mood - I think their artists nailed it. But the gameplay feels off. Compared to Super Metroid, the sense of speed is gone. The sense of exacting contol is gone, and all the hand holding, hints, "objectives", and spoon-fed progress all work against the sense of freedom and being all alone in an alien world. Unfortunately, this simplification and hand holding has found its way into the 2D metroid games made since the prime series. It is subtle, but signifigant. Try going back to Super Metroid and play the game for a while - see if you can feel the differences, and identify what gameplay subtleties have been lost.

The worls in MP have been a bit miyamotoized in that the puzzles are more important than suspension of disbelief. They are full of arbitrary puzzles that make no sense in and of themselves, making the prime series feel more like a string of minigames linked by FPS gameplay all wraped up in a metroid themed skin. It breaks the sense of self consistency of the world. Would the aliens build elaborate spider rail systems for themselves with a missle upgrade at the end, or use morph ball cannons to get around?

The prime puzzles are cute and clever, but in my opinion the designers should have worked harder to make them feel like they made sense existing within the world and that they were not special cases for you to use your abilities - that is, that they make sense with or without your presence there. This type of level design is great for mario where it is ok to be abstract for no reason. But for the Metroid Prime series, I find it repeatedly pulls me out of the atmosphere that the artwork works so hard to create.

And why this arbitrary limitation of where one can use the abilities of the power suit? The original spider ball allowed you to stick to _any_ surface wherever you wanted, and the original screw attack had non limitation on how high you could go, or how long you could use it - it was just a matter of skill.

The prime series has great production values, but I hope against hope that future efforts give more thought to the reasons behind the design decisions made in Super Metroid.

Wow, tons of things to address:

* 3D Maps don't "feel like Metroid": no, because the "traditional" games make heavy use of the vertical element -- some rooms were like 1 screen wide but 6 or 7 screens tall. It's hard to do the tiny crags and outcroppings you saw all over e.g. Brinstar both because it's harder to do precision jumps in 1st-person, and because people are used to thinking in 2 dimensions, so a lot of "3D" games (MP included) tend to avoid lots of vertical travel to keep the player from getting confused. Maybe this did remove an element of complexity that SM had, but I think it also removed some of the arbitrary "I'd better bomb every square on this wall just to be sure" feeling as well. I don't regret the transition, personally.

* Storytelling/scanning: As games have gotten bigger, stories have gotten more involved. Look at the Castlevania games -- the NES and SNES ones had like 10 lines of dialogue in the whole game; the GBA ones have a lot more, and the DS ones have characters who say different things (some of which have importance to the story) after every major game event. Sometimes I get frustrated that MP has *so much* stuff to scan, but I really enjoy the lore and feel it adds a lot to the "Metroid Universe".

* "space jump (though the 5 jump limit sucks)": remember, in SM you get the space jump at the very very end, because it would make almost any area immediately accessible. The way it's set up, it unlocks some areas, but there are still relatively easy ways to leave particular areas off-limits. I'd say the biggest problem is that it lunges you forward so much; before, it would let you jump out into a blind pit, then change your mind. Now, once you've committed to a space jump, you'd better be happy with the direction you're facing.


Long story short, I think the MP series is different, but not worse. I'd still shell out big bucks for a 2.5D Metroid, though -- you listening, Nintendo?

This line of thinking is just coming from old-timers having trouble adjusting.

I know this because I consider myself an old-timer, since my gaming roots were on the C64 and Atari. For the longest time, I resisted 3D non-RPG games. Example: I can't stand all the new fighting games; I'm a Street Fighter 2/Mortal Kombat veteran. The only 3D fighter that has worked for me is MK: Shaolin Monks since they retained aerial combat (most 3D fighters lost this).

People tried to get me to play Halo and Counterstrike...but I just couldn't handle it...it was too difficult to make sense of direction and get a feel for a distance. In the 2D world...this is much easier albeit limiting.

Anyway, Metroid Prime is what sucked me into FPS games. I came across some gift cards so I bought a Gamecube and MP1. It was difficult at first, but being without the manual aiming mechanic helped me concentrate on getting a feel for virtual 3D space. The exploratory helped also.

After MP, I was able to backtrack and play AVP 1&2, Counterstrike, Halo 1 & 2, and many others that I missed. It really opened up my gaming options, and I'm glad I was able to make the jump. It sounds like Croal needs to do the same.

Now I just need to work on those 3D fighters.