Dave Perry: Gamers ignore Wii's 'sloppy' controls

I know I will be whitted out for saying this but I actually agree with perry when it comes to the sloppy motion controls.

BTW joystiq: Your not talking about motion controls in MP3 and Resident Evil beacuse those use the IR triangulation. The motion controls are sloppy and innacurrate in all Wii games.

http://blog.wired.com/games/2007/09/tgs-2007-exhibi.html

I really wish Game|Life had gone into more detail on this booth at TGS. All I can gather is that it proves that the motion sensing in the Wii Remote is far, far more accurate and precise than any game now currently demonstrates.

"The motion controls are sloppy and innacurrate in all Wii games."

No, they aren't. When the developer actually puts the time and effort into it, the motion controls actually work very well. There's a difference between "waggle" (Red Steel, Zelda's unfortunate swordplay) and accurate, three-dimensional tilt control (Excite Truck, Rayman, and WiiSports all show evidence of this).

Amen! I still don't give a damn what Perry thinks. I am shocked if someone, other than mommy, does.

And all the replies to my post show the self dilusional Nintendo finatics ignoring the truth just like perry said.

Oh yeah, I am a delusional nintendo fanatic. Assume much?

Okay, so I give you a link to a piece of empirical evidence, therefore I am a delusional fanboy? It is EVIDENCE that the Wii Remote is actually ACCURATE, therefore it is developers who are botching things up.

"And all the replies to my post show the self dilusional Nintendo finatics ignoring the truth just like perry said."

God, you are such a fucking troll. Also, your spelling is poor. Oh, and I seem to remember you defending Lair, Shaggi, so I think your opinion on motion control is pretty much invalid in any case. All these attention whore anti-Wii trolls like you and Dave "Enter the Matrix" Perry need to get a grip and stop nitpicking at a goddamn controller when the real blame lies with lazy developers trying to make a quick buck by porting their latest PSP game.

@Shagittarius
If you like Perry so much why don't you marry him

ooooo

I think it is hilarious Dave Perry is complaining about "bad controls" he should go play his shining turd "Enter the Matrix".

As I said last time, what has Perry done LATELY? Nothing. He makes shitty games and has no place in the industry now.

so he can fight Jack Thompson

They aren't. Note how often they disagree with him in the article. They are posting it out of spite to get fanboys to blast him and generate traffic.

Cause no one is allowed to hate the wii. PS3 and 360 fine, but not the godbox

We always put pussies on a pedestal. /movie reference

Dave Perry huh? Never heard of him.

Pointing and tilting are two different things. More than likely, by "waggle" people refer to the accelorometers.

Metroid Prime 3, while a great game, made little use of the tilt sensors.
1) Twisting some control interfaces (I've had no problems doing this)
2) Jumping in Morph Ball mode (I've had a lot of problems with this)
3) Casting out the Grapple Beam (I've had a little bit of problems with this, but not much)


And there is the Classic Controller, too. Several games do support this as an option.

As easy as this guy makes it to trample all over his arguments, lets think about what he's implicitly stating. I think we all agree that a bad use of motion controls is when gestures are used to replace button presses. On the other hand, when someone mentions good motion controls, they often reference games like Resident Evil or Metroid, where the Wiimote is essentially used as a mouse with more degrees of freedom. But isn't that in itself a very limiting control scheme? There are genres that you simply couldn't control naturally with a mouse, even with a keyboard (or analog, in this case) in your other hand. Isn't that the reason games use tacked on motion controls? Because it would be nigh impossible to apply a natural Wii control scheme for that genre? In other words, does the control scheme limit the types of games that can be made well on the Wii? Is this innovative, new way to play actually even more limiting than the old "press A to jump?"

I wanted to ask "When was the last time Dave Perry made a good game?" too, but I think he actually makes a reasonable point, even if inadvertently.

"I think we all agree that a bad use of motion controls is when gestures are used to replace button presses. "

Not really. It's a matter of what's more appropriate. You can assign a button press to anything (and in the past, you did, obviously).

So which makes more sense:
1) pressing a button to swing a sword
2) swinging the Wiimote like a sword

1) pressing a button to punch someone
2) swinging the Wiimote to punch someone

1) pressing a button to hit a ball
2) swinging the Wiimote to hit a ball

That's not to say that there isn't such a thing as poor implementation of appropriate gesture controls. If you're going to punch someone, it would probably be more well suited to make the player make a punching motion...but they could just as easily make you flick the Wiimote around. THAT would be inappropriate and more like replacing a button press.

And it works the other way around, too. You could very damn well make a 2D game where in order to make the character jump, you flick the Wiimote up. But it would be easier to gauge, I think, by using a button press.

so...no. Saying that Wii's motion controls shouldn't replace button presses is 100% incorrect, if you ask me.

My ideal wii game is one where the wii remote functions as your right hand, and the nunchuck functions as your left. Everything else in the game is dependent on what your "hands" are holding.

So if I pick up a gun in the game, trigger becomes "shoot". To reload, I move my real left hand to my real right hand, push c or z to "grab", pull the clip out, release c or z to release the clip, push c or z to grab a new clip, move the clip into the gun. Yeah, its a long process, but thats how you would reload a real gun.

Now, same game. I drop the gun and use my right hand to pick up a pipe. Now the control emulates the pipe in my hand, where I swing the wii remote, it swings the pipe. If I want to use 2 hands, I move the nunchuck up next to the wii remote, and the character moves his left hand and grabs the pipe.

Now, same game. You have to climb a ladder or wall to escape. You reach with your right to the first rung, hold down B. Pull downward, reach with left hand, hold down c/z, release B, reach with right hand to next rung, etc.

Same game. You're forced to pilot an air plane/jet fighter. You're in the cockpit. You use the wii remote and nunchuck to grab the flight stick. You use your right left hand to control the throttle lever. Trigger fires main gun, A button fires secondary.

That is how you'd make a game with good motion controls. Instead of having gestures to replace a button press, have the gesture make sense relative to the game world itself. Make the wiimote BE your hand, make the nunchuck BE your hand. The hardware is capable of this, we just need a developer to get on board with it.

My ideal wii game is one where the wii remote functions as your right hand, and the nunchuck functions as your left. Everything else in the game is dependent on what your "hands" are holding.

So if I pick up a gun in the game, trigger becomes "shoot". To reload, I move my real left hand to my real right hand, push c or z to "grab", pull the clip out, release c or z to release the clip, push c or z to grab a new clip, move the clip into the gun. Yeah, its a long process, but thats how you would reload a real gun.

Now, same game. I drop the gun and use my right hand to pick up a pipe. Now the control emulates the pipe in my hand, where I swing the wii remote, it swings the pipe. If I want to use 2 hands, I move the nunchuck up next to the wii remote, and the character moves his left hand and grabs the pipe.

Now, same game. You have to climb a ladder or wall to escape. You reach with your right to the first rung, hold down B. Pull downward, reach with left hand, hold down c/z, release B, reach with right hand to next rung, etc.

Same game. You're forced to pilot an air plane/jet fighter. You're in the cockpit. You use the wii remote and nunchuck to grab the flight stick. You use your right left hand to control the throttle lever. Trigger fires main gun, A button fires secondary.

That is how you'd make a game with good motion controls. Instead of having gestures to replace a button press, have the gesture make sense relative to the game world itself. Make the wiimote BE your hand, make the nunchuck BE your hand. The hardware is capable of this, we just need a developer to get on board with it.

I'd be happy if he made Earthworm Jim Wii with Wiimote aiming and head-whipping.


One of my dream games that'll surely never be realized.

You could always sell it to Fox. They'll make it in to a reality show too!

It can't be done right because of the hardware in the Wiimote, at least that's what he said

I'm hoping that, aside from games like RE4 and MP3 showing how to use motion controls, that games like SSBB show dev's that you don't necessarily have to use them.

Just like not every DS game using the touch screen or mic.

> Just like not every DS game using the touch screen or mic.

But then you have an example of Battle of Prince of Persia which forced on you exclusive touchscreen controls - for otherwise A/B/D-pad tuned game.

DS is less of problem - it has more buttons, DS allowed to innovate.

Wii is different. Problem is that Wii forces devels to innovate and create original games. But since it all starts from porting old franchises, we are all to "enjoy" games which have waggle glued on top - by mean of waggle gestures. (e.g. Zelda's sword combos.)

I like how you reference the Wii one day "taking off" if they can get the controls right..

I'm not sure if you heard, but so far the Wii has more units sold than the other two competitors.

And how many years did the 360 have for a head start? Ouch.

Just saying.

I'm not a fanboy, but it's a poor choice of words. The Wii IS taking off, even if sunlight makes the cursor shake like a car going uphill on bad gas.

You might be right that it was a poor choice of words. I meant it will achieve its potential as a gaming platform, not as a consumer item.

Seriously. This is what happens when you split all your time between Glamour Shots and the EB at your local mall. You become Dave Perry.

> The wii's inaccurate controls are a major disappointment to me.

Are you referring to poorly implemented game state machines? used to recognize motion gesture? to convert to what was before key press? Well, that's problem of game implementation - not of WiiMote.

If you are referring to inaccurate targeting - then you just have to go to shooting distance yourself and try to shoot something at 25/50 meters. WiiMote doesn't make it harder - it makes it more closer to real world. And in real world it is complicated as hell to shoot anything. But we have watched just dozens too much of Holywood movies where you can easily from hundred yards shoot somebody from a handgun (provided requirement that you are good guy is fulfilled).

You make a good point but I must clarify. Because the sensor bar is, by design, at an indeterminate position relative to the controller, there is no way for the wii to truly ascertain where it is pointed at. Current games require the user to move a cursor around and aim *relatively*. This is in no way more like firing a gun in real life -- where bullets go in the direction the firearm is pointed!

It is much easier for the light gun to be accurate.

When you pull the trigger on a light gun, the screen shows 1 frame of an all black screen with a white dot where a target is. When the program checks the gun, it looks for light (white) or no light (black). At least that is how the NES gun worked. It might be a little more complex on newer guns, but still the same concept.
You could point your gun in duckhunt at a light and it should always count a hit.

Anyways, the last time I checked, the wiimote has the infrared and the accelerometers. A programmer needs to combine all the variables that these different devices return and use them to move something in a game.

If I was programming for the wii, the first thing I would get down is the x,y and z acceleration. Map it 1 to 1. With a little buffer for each axis to smooth it out. There would be a brick on the screen and moving the wiimote would move the brick.

Are there angular accelerometers in the wiimote? Is there even such a thing? I don't think there is. I've played wiisports and it seems like you just need to move the remote forward and backwards. You don't need to actually swing it in an arch. That probably makes it a little harder.

O.K., I've lost myself in thought. /rant.

I like your thinking Steve. The brick example is exactly what I want to see as the starting basis for Wii motion. A lot of people seem to be calling it "1 to 1."

However, I believe that due to limitations in the design of the remote, it is barely possible even to make such a simple example. Why? Because tilting the controller registers the accelerometer in the same way that lateral motion does. Then, once the controller is in a different orientation, subsequent movement appears to the user to be along a different axis. Sadly even something as simple as moving a brick around in two dimensional space won't be resolved by the wii in a manner that gives the user the feeling they are really controlling it.

I haven't tested these hypotheses though. So I could be wrong. It's based merely on the fact that even Nintendo hasn't demonstrated such simple applications that I believe it's probably impossible.

"However, I believe that due to limitations in the design of the remote, it is barely possible even to make such a simple example. Why? Because tilting the controller registers the accelerometer in the same way that lateral motion does."

See the trophy screen in Excite Truck for just such an example. It's pretty simplistic, as you can only tilt the trophy along two axes, but it is very close to 1:1. I imagine Monkey Ball and Kororinpa work better, but I haven't played either of them.

The trophy is a tilt display. I'm glad that works, but what Steve and I are describing is translation, not rotation.

I don't know of even a simple wii translation demo.

That's a good point. As long as it works well enough, maybe we should be forgiving of the system's limitations.

Yeah well you're a stupid head. And due to this fact whatever you say is wrong. It's perfect validation!