Dave Perry: Gamers ignore Wii's 'sloppy' controls
by Jason Dobson 
{ Sep 25th 2007 at 1:58PM }
Much ado has been made of recent comments spat by Shiny founder David Perry regarding the Wii's longterm success and ability to draw players away from the crisp graphics and high-defness of Xbox 360 and PS3. Now the always outspoken development veteran has called out Nintendo fans themselves in an interview, stating that while he is himself a Wii owner, Perry still believes that "there's just many issues with the Wii, and the fans just don't want to hear it."He does offer the Wii kudos for its accomplishments so far, but adds that he finds it "interesting to see how people turn a blind eye to its flaws." What flaws exactly? Perry specifically takes issue with the Wii's 'sloppy' waggle control, and he's "surprised" that players are willing to accept this level of inaccuracy in their games.
While we agree that the Wii experience is definitely a mixed bag, it seems unfair to lay the burden of imprecise controls at the console's feet when games like Resident Evil 4 and Metroid Prime 3 make such strides to validate a full range of motion controls. Still, he does have a sliver of a point when it comes to what players are willing to accept in the face of innovation.
[Note: source is in PDF format.]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
T3H WICKERMAN @ Sep 25th 2007 2:05PM
You will not get funding for your crappy games this way. Really the only reason we enjoy hearing you run your mouth is because it shows us how pathetic, bitter, and washed up you are. What they didnt want earthworm jim on the virtual console? Is that it?
Shagittarius @ Sep 25th 2007 2:53PM
I know I will be whitted out for saying this but I actually agree with perry when it comes to the sloppy motion controls.
BTW joystiq: Your not talking about motion controls in MP3 and Resident Evil beacuse those use the IR triangulation. The motion controls are sloppy and innacurrate in all Wii games.
megaStryke @ Sep 25th 2007 3:11PM
http://blog.wired.com/games/2007/09/tgs-2007-exhibi.html
I really wish Game|Life had gone into more detail on this booth at TGS. All I can gather is that it proves that the motion sensing in the Wii Remote is far, far more accurate and precise than any game now currently demonstrates.
AstroZombie @ Sep 25th 2007 3:20PM
"The motion controls are sloppy and innacurrate in all Wii games."
No, they aren't. When the developer actually puts the time and effort into it, the motion controls actually work very well. There's a difference between "waggle" (Red Steel, Zelda's unfortunate swordplay) and accurate, three-dimensional tilt control (Excite Truck, Rayman, and WiiSports all show evidence of this).
NATO_Duke @ Sep 25th 2007 3:20PM
Amen! I still don't give a damn what Perry thinks. I am shocked if someone, other than mommy, does.
Shagittarius @ Sep 25th 2007 3:39PM
And all the replies to my post show the self dilusional Nintendo finatics ignoring the truth just like perry said.
NATO_Duke @ Sep 25th 2007 3:43PM
Oh yeah, I am a delusional nintendo fanatic. Assume much?
megaStryke @ Sep 25th 2007 3:53PM
Okay, so I give you a link to a piece of empirical evidence, therefore I am a delusional fanboy? It is EVIDENCE that the Wii Remote is actually ACCURATE, therefore it is developers who are botching things up.
AstroZombie @ Sep 25th 2007 4:14PM
"And all the replies to my post show the self dilusional Nintendo finatics ignoring the truth just like perry said."
God, you are such a fucking troll. Also, your spelling is poor. Oh, and I seem to remember you defending Lair, Shaggi, so I think your opinion on motion control is pretty much invalid in any case. All these attention whore anti-Wii trolls like you and Dave "Enter the Matrix" Perry need to get a grip and stop nitpicking at a goddamn controller when the real blame lies with lazy developers trying to make a quick buck by porting their latest PSP game.
JanJan @ Sep 25th 2007 4:28PM
@Shagittarius
If you like Perry so much why don't you marry him
ooooo
Obie @ Sep 25th 2007 4:46PM
I think it is hilarious Dave Perry is complaining about "bad controls" he should go play his shining turd "Enter the Matrix".
required @ Sep 25th 2007 2:06PM
why does joystiq keep putting Perry on such a pedestal?
Neebs @ Sep 25th 2007 2:50PM
As I said last time, what has Perry done LATELY? Nothing. He makes shitty games and has no place in the industry now.
Kn1ves @ Sep 25th 2007 2:58PM
so he can fight Jack Thompson
Tahiri @ Sep 26th 2007 2:42AM
They aren't. Note how often they disagree with him in the article. They are posting it out of spite to get fanboys to blast him and generate traffic.
Cause no one is allowed to hate the wii. PS3 and 360 fine, but not the godbox
ThornedVenom @ Sep 26th 2007 3:53AM
We always put pussies on a pedestal. /movie reference
Friday_Knight @ Sep 29th 2007 3:32AM
Dave Perry huh? Never heard of him.
vinny @ Sep 25th 2007 2:07PM
its kind of hard to ignore something when you have no other choice with the system
Bidoof Protection Military @ Sep 25th 2007 2:14PM
Pointing and tilting are two different things. More than likely, by "waggle" people refer to the accelorometers.
Metroid Prime 3, while a great game, made little use of the tilt sensors.
1) Twisting some control interfaces (I've had no problems doing this)
2) Jumping in Morph Ball mode (I've had a lot of problems with this)
3) Casting out the Grapple Beam (I've had a little bit of problems with this, but not much)
And there is the Classic Controller, too. Several games do support this as an option.
upz @ Sep 25th 2007 2:45PM
As easy as this guy makes it to trample all over his arguments, lets think about what he's implicitly stating. I think we all agree that a bad use of motion controls is when gestures are used to replace button presses. On the other hand, when someone mentions good motion controls, they often reference games like Resident Evil or Metroid, where the Wiimote is essentially used as a mouse with more degrees of freedom. But isn't that in itself a very limiting control scheme? There are genres that you simply couldn't control naturally with a mouse, even with a keyboard (or analog, in this case) in your other hand. Isn't that the reason games use tacked on motion controls? Because it would be nigh impossible to apply a natural Wii control scheme for that genre? In other words, does the control scheme limit the types of games that can be made well on the Wii? Is this innovative, new way to play actually even more limiting than the old "press A to jump?"
I wanted to ask "When was the last time Dave Perry made a good game?" too, but I think he actually makes a reasonable point, even if inadvertently.
samfish (MSDF- Nurse Outfit!) @ Sep 25th 2007 2:58PM
"I think we all agree that a bad use of motion controls is when gestures are used to replace button presses. "
Not really. It's a matter of what's more appropriate. You can assign a button press to anything (and in the past, you did, obviously).
So which makes more sense:
1) pressing a button to swing a sword
2) swinging the Wiimote like a sword
1) pressing a button to punch someone
2) swinging the Wiimote to punch someone
1) pressing a button to hit a ball
2) swinging the Wiimote to hit a ball
That's not to say that there isn't such a thing as poor implementation of appropriate gesture controls. If you're going to punch someone, it would probably be more well suited to make the player make a punching motion...but they could just as easily make you flick the Wiimote around. THAT would be inappropriate and more like replacing a button press.
And it works the other way around, too. You could very damn well make a 2D game where in order to make the character jump, you flick the Wiimote up. But it would be easier to gauge, I think, by using a button press.
so...no. Saying that Wii's motion controls shouldn't replace button presses is 100% incorrect, if you ask me.
Crono (NDF - French Taunting from Holy Grail Ring) @ Sep 25th 2007 3:07PM
My ideal wii game is one where the wii remote functions as your right hand, and the nunchuck functions as your left. Everything else in the game is dependent on what your "hands" are holding.
So if I pick up a gun in the game, trigger becomes "shoot". To reload, I move my real left hand to my real right hand, push c or z to "grab", pull the clip out, release c or z to release the clip, push c or z to grab a new clip, move the clip into the gun. Yeah, its a long process, but thats how you would reload a real gun.
Now, same game. I drop the gun and use my right hand to pick up a pipe. Now the control emulates the pipe in my hand, where I swing the wii remote, it swings the pipe. If I want to use 2 hands, I move the nunchuck up next to the wii remote, and the character moves his left hand and grabs the pipe.
Now, same game. You have to climb a ladder or wall to escape. You reach with your right to the first rung, hold down B. Pull downward, reach with left hand, hold down c/z, release B, reach with right hand to next rung, etc.
Same game. You're forced to pilot an air plane/jet fighter. You're in the cockpit. You use the wii remote and nunchuck to grab the flight stick. You use your right left hand to control the throttle lever. Trigger fires main gun, A button fires secondary.
That is how you'd make a game with good motion controls. Instead of having gestures to replace a button press, have the gesture make sense relative to the game world itself. Make the wiimote BE your hand, make the nunchuck BE your hand. The hardware is capable of this, we just need a developer to get on board with it.
Crono (NDF - French Taunting from Holy Grail Ring) @ Sep 25th 2007 3:10PM
My ideal wii game is one where the wii remote functions as your right hand, and the nunchuck functions as your left. Everything else in the game is dependent on what your "hands" are holding.
So if I pick up a gun in the game, trigger becomes "shoot". To reload, I move my real left hand to my real right hand, push c or z to "grab", pull the clip out, release c or z to release the clip, push c or z to grab a new clip, move the clip into the gun. Yeah, its a long process, but thats how you would reload a real gun.
Now, same game. I drop the gun and use my right hand to pick up a pipe. Now the control emulates the pipe in my hand, where I swing the wii remote, it swings the pipe. If I want to use 2 hands, I move the nunchuck up next to the wii remote, and the character moves his left hand and grabs the pipe.
Now, same game. You have to climb a ladder or wall to escape. You reach with your right to the first rung, hold down B. Pull downward, reach with left hand, hold down c/z, release B, reach with right hand to next rung, etc.
Same game. You're forced to pilot an air plane/jet fighter. You're in the cockpit. You use the wii remote and nunchuck to grab the flight stick. You use your right left hand to control the throttle lever. Trigger fires main gun, A button fires secondary.
That is how you'd make a game with good motion controls. Instead of having gestures to replace a button press, have the gesture make sense relative to the game world itself. Make the wiimote BE your hand, make the nunchuck BE your hand. The hardware is capable of this, we just need a developer to get on board with it.
Bidoof Protection Military @ Sep 25th 2007 2:11PM
Dear Dave Perry,
Make a game for Wii that shows how it can be done right. If you can't, then please shut up.
Love,
BPMΩ
samfish (MSDF- Nurse Outfit!) @ Sep 25th 2007 2:23PM
I'd be happy if he made Earthworm Jim Wii with Wiimote aiming and head-whipping.
One of my dream games that'll surely never be realized.
Hashbrown_Hunter @ Sep 25th 2007 2:33PM
You could always sell it to Fox. They'll make it in to a reality show too!
Slaziman @ Sep 25th 2007 2:43PM
It can't be done right because of the hardware in the Wiimote, at least that's what he said
Bluebrake @ Sep 25th 2007 2:11PM
Yes, Dave, your prediction that people wouldn't like Wii didn't pan out, so it must be the -people- who are wrong.
That being said, he's right about the controls. Motion controls so far, outside of Wii Tennis/Bowling and a few isolated moments in other games, have been poor. They're imprecise, tacked on button replacements. Wii will only take off when developers start using motion controls to do things that -can't be done with buttons-. But I see no reason they shouldn't be able to if they ever get their acts together.
Prof_Chaos @ Sep 25th 2007 2:24PM
I'm hoping that, aside from games like RE4 and MP3 showing how to use motion controls, that games like SSBB show dev's that you don't necessarily have to use them.
Just like not every DS game using the touch screen or mic.
Ihar `Philips` Filipau @ Sep 25th 2007 3:03PM
> Just like not every DS game using the touch screen or mic.
But then you have an example of Battle of Prince of Persia which forced on you exclusive touchscreen controls - for otherwise A/B/D-pad tuned game.
DS is less of problem - it has more buttons, DS allowed to innovate.
Wii is different. Problem is that Wii forces devels to innovate and create original games. But since it all starts from porting old franchises, we are all to "enjoy" games which have waggle glued on top - by mean of waggle gestures. (e.g. Zelda's sword combos.)
Jerk Face @ Sep 25th 2007 4:53PM
I like how you reference the Wii one day "taking off" if they can get the controls right..
I'm not sure if you heard, but so far the Wii has more units sold than the other two competitors.
And how many years did the 360 have for a head start? Ouch.
Just saying.
I'm not a fanboy, but it's a poor choice of words. The Wii IS taking off, even if sunlight makes the cursor shake like a car going uphill on bad gas.
Bluebrake @ Sep 25th 2007 4:56PM
You might be right that it was a poor choice of words. I meant it will achieve its potential as a gaming platform, not as a consumer item.
Mike Jenkins @ Sep 25th 2007 2:12PM
Test.
DarthDavid @ Sep 25th 2007 2:13PM
Hey Perry, how about you make a game?!?!.....wait when was the last time you made a great title? Whatever, that picture makes him look like a douche.
Matt @ Sep 25th 2007 2:50PM
Seriously. This is what happens when you split all your time between Glamour Shots and the EB at your local mall. You become Dave Perry.
David @ Sep 25th 2007 2:14PM
A "sliver" of a point? I agree with Dave Perry completely. The wii's inaccurate controls are a major disappointment to me. I think no game will be ABLE to make good use of motion sensing, unless the current limitations are due to poor accelerometer interpretation algorithms.
As for the pointer, it's by far the best feature - but it's not motion sensing at all! I was also sad to discover that it's much slower and less accurate than a light gun, which we've been using for decades in arcades.
I hope for a better future, but for now, I think the best thing about the wii controller is only that your hands aren't stuck together when holding it!
Ihar `Philips` Filipau @ Sep 25th 2007 3:09PM
> The wii's inaccurate controls are a major disappointment to me.
Are you referring to poorly implemented game state machines? used to recognize motion gesture? to convert to what was before key press? Well, that's problem of game implementation - not of WiiMote.
If you are referring to inaccurate targeting - then you just have to go to shooting distance yourself and try to shoot something at 25/50 meters. WiiMote doesn't make it harder - it makes it more closer to real world. And in real world it is complicated as hell to shoot anything. But we have watched just dozens too much of Holywood movies where you can easily from hundred yards shoot somebody from a handgun (provided requirement that you are good guy is fulfilled).
David @ Sep 25th 2007 3:31PM
You make a good point but I must clarify. Because the sensor bar is, by design, at an indeterminate position relative to the controller, there is no way for the wii to truly ascertain where it is pointed at. Current games require the user to move a cursor around and aim *relatively*. This is in no way more like firing a gun in real life -- where bullets go in the direction the firearm is pointed!
the real steve @ Sep 25th 2007 3:52PM
It is much easier for the light gun to be accurate.
When you pull the trigger on a light gun, the screen shows 1 frame of an all black screen with a white dot where a target is. When the program checks the gun, it looks for light (white) or no light (black). At least that is how the NES gun worked. It might be a little more complex on newer guns, but still the same concept.
You could point your gun in duckhunt at a light and it should always count a hit.
Anyways, the last time I checked, the wiimote has the infrared and the accelerometers. A programmer needs to combine all the variables that these different devices return and use them to move something in a game.
If I was programming for the wii, the first thing I would get down is the x,y and z acceleration. Map it 1 to 1. With a little buffer for each axis to smooth it out. There would be a brick on the screen and moving the wiimote would move the brick.
Are there angular accelerometers in the wiimote? Is there even such a thing? I don't think there is. I've played wiisports and it seems like you just need to move the remote forward and backwards. You don't need to actually swing it in an arch. That probably makes it a little harder.
O.K., I've lost myself in thought. /rant.
David @ Sep 25th 2007 4:29PM
I like your thinking Steve. The brick example is exactly what I want to see as the starting basis for Wii motion. A lot of people seem to be calling it "1 to 1."
However, I believe that due to limitations in the design of the remote, it is barely possible even to make such a simple example. Why? Because tilting the controller registers the accelerometer in the same way that lateral motion does. Then, once the controller is in a different orientation, subsequent movement appears to the user to be along a different axis. Sadly even something as simple as moving a brick around in two dimensional space won't be resolved by the wii in a manner that gives the user the feeling they are really controlling it.
I haven't tested these hypotheses though. So I could be wrong. It's based merely on the fact that even Nintendo hasn't demonstrated such simple applications that I believe it's probably impossible.
AstroZombie @ Sep 25th 2007 4:40PM
"However, I believe that due to limitations in the design of the remote, it is barely possible even to make such a simple example. Why? Because tilting the controller registers the accelerometer in the same way that lateral motion does."
See the trophy screen in Excite Truck for just such an example. It's pretty simplistic, as you can only tilt the trophy along two axes, but it is very close to 1:1. I imagine Monkey Ball and Kororinpa work better, but I haven't played either of them.
David @ Sep 25th 2007 7:05PM
The trophy is a tilt display. I'm glad that works, but what Steve and I are describing is translation, not rotation.
I don't know of even a simple wii translation demo.
Hollywood Ron @ Sep 25th 2007 2:17PM
If it was so frustrating and such a hurdle to people, nobody would play the Wii and word of mouth would have killed it long before now. People, especially non-gamers, have an incredibly low frustration tolerance and aren't impressed by something new if they can't get the thing to work.
opifex @ Sep 25th 2007 2:17PM
dave.. you are half right, since your a retard i guessed you wouldnt of figured it out completely.
besides the FACT is that its the "GAME DEVELOPERS" fault on why the wii controls arnt good, for the current games out they are really impressive on most games. sure they are very very minor problems.. but what you must understand is
A. I and every other Wii owner knows that the wii controls are superb, we are just waiting for the devs to do something amazing with them.. for example nintendos games coming soon.
B. I and almost every other wii owner, WILL GLADLY use wii controls for realism and fun, over ANY plain control ps360 games.
jpn @ Sep 25th 2007 2:17PM
I slightly agree, but what's his point in saying it other than sounding like whining and sour grapes. I think it's cheap technology, but it keeps the price down and affordable and people like that too. I know that I have to be sitting in the right area that's not always comfortable or convenient when I play Wii, but that's partly my fault too.
David @ Sep 25th 2007 2:22PM
That's a good point. As long as it works well enough, maybe we should be forgiving of the system's limitations.
Noel @ Sep 25th 2007 2:18PM
I think a lot of people in the industry have failed to come to grips with the fact that Nintendo has stepped off the beaten path.
Quotes like the following seem off the mark:
"When a game comes out - a game like a Halo or something, something they haven’t seen before - they'll drop everything and they’ll drop their Wii controllers when it does."
I don't think you'll see my friends 60 year old father, a proud Wii owner, drop his Wii for Halo. I don't think you'll see daytime TV promote Halo to soccer moms the way they will Wii Fit (when it arrives).
Nintendo has clearly dropped out of the race to be the primary system for the hardcore gamer, but in the process they have captured a vastly larger audience.
I think it's okay to be confused about how this will change the game industry, but to fail to acknowledge that this change is happening is naive.
creid @ Sep 25th 2007 2:20PM
Ah, ad hominem attacks - I expected no more. He's exactly right in some cases. I cringe every time someone mentions that Wii Golf is done well (unless they never got to the putting.)
Geist @ Sep 25th 2007 2:33PM
Yeah well you're a stupid head. And due to this fact whatever you say is wrong. It's perfect validation!
iamtheoneyouknowbest @ Sep 25th 2007 2:19PM
The Wii is not perfect. Controls could be tighter. Maybe a more powerful machine.. maybe the most powerful console (on the market) could do a better job.. wait.. what happened with LAIR?
So, if you shine up sloppy controls.. then the controls become acceptable?
What an assbag.