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Posted: Oct 12th 2007 12:47PM (Unverified) said

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yeah they don't have a 1st amendment in england
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Posted: Oct 12th 2007 12:49PM dasiki said

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We don't need one. We can look after ourselves without having to go to some piece of outdated paper everytime a new issue arises.
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Posted: Oct 12th 2007 12:51PM (Unverified) said

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it doesn't look like it...
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Posted: Oct 12th 2007 12:53PM kinshadow said

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@DSK It's not a "piece of paper". It is a fundemental pillar in our government / society. Your ability to "look after [y]ourselves" is all well and good until a wing of governement exploits you. What is your recourse? Rebellion?
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Posted: Oct 12th 2007 1:02PM dasiki said

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"it doesn't look like it..."

That comment is based on what exactly??

@kinshadow, democracy means we can throw that "wing of government" out. I realize thats very idealistic and naive sounding but its worked for the past 3 centuries.
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Posted: Oct 12th 2007 1:00PM (Unverified) said

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I've never heard of anyone attempting to insult something as important as the first amendment. Haha, the internet, go figure.
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Posted: Oct 12th 2007 1:05PM AirIntake said

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Oh please. The first amendment hardly gives Americans any more freedom than Brits. Wake up people, the government can make damn near whatever law they want if they have enough support. With enough political pressure, exemptions can be made for anything. Gitmo's still operating, right? Illegal wiretaps of American citizens continue. The constitution IS a piece of paper if everybody doesn't defend it, and they aren't.
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Posted: Oct 12th 2007 1:21PM PoisonedAl said

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There's no 1st amendment in the UK because we've yet to really need one. Mostly because we don't get too many ultra-right wing bell-ends with a bible lodged in their anus trying to change the law every five minutes. We have to fall back on common sense, something that seems to be in short supply in the US. Saying that however, if enough Daily Mail readers get a hair up their arse crack it can be a problem.
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Posted: Oct 12th 2007 1:28PM (Unverified) said

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1st Amendment is a little piece of paper that really shows something about America.

You seem to be so certain that a piece of paper will protect you from your government.

What if the government takes away your piece of paper? hmm?
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Posted: Oct 12th 2007 1:34PM (Unverified) said

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That's why the piece of paper also insures our right to arm ourselves for the day the government tries to take it away without the consent of the people. How's that working out in england?

It seemed to have worked back in the days that paper was written.
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Posted: Oct 12th 2007 1:51PM PoisonedAl said

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It also lets crazy people run around schools shooting people at random.

If it really come to a point where you'd have to overthrow your govenemnt, would you be playing by the rules anyway?

*fills milk bottles full of petrol*
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Posted: Oct 12th 2007 1:52PM (Unverified) said

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Once again, England falls back on common sense.

In the UK we don't have guns and therefore don't live in crazy fear and don't have xbox-sized gun-crime rates.

But go ahead, worship your paper.
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Posted: Oct 12th 2007 2:10PM (Unverified) said

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Woo! A who's nation is better argument! Awesome! What it comes down to, yeah, America's government sucks right now. But that doesn't change that the first amendment is an amazing law. Doesn't matter how much fucking commonsense your nation has, it's still a great law. Doesn't matter what president is breaking that law at the time, still a great law.

As far as who's nation is the best. Who the fuck cares. But when nukes start flying I know where I want to be, Canada.
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Posted: Oct 12th 2007 2:14PM Crono141 said

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The only people I've ever seen in america freaking out about guns are british tourists.

This country was built on the right to free speech and religion, and we back up those rights with the right to keep and bear arms.

I can't honestly understand why british people get bent out of shape over wiretapping in america when they have audio and video serveilance on every street corner in London. "Doesn't matter if you're not breaking the law". Same goes for wiretapping, asses.

You guys are just mad because we made democracy work 100 years before you did. And we get to keep our guns.

Good luck with that freedom of speech thing when the government starts banning books and literature and political speech that it doesn't agree with. Oh wait, it already is. What the hell kind of qualifier for a BAN is "bleakness and callousness of tone"? Better ban all of Emily Dickinson's work then.

Sometimes it boggles my mind how some brits can be so blind, and then say america is fucked up.

Pot... Kettle.
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Posted: Oct 12th 2007 3:01PM (Unverified) said

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Funny, you bridiots should face the facts about crime going down in areas with concealed carry laws. How is it living in a state that watches you cross the street and bitches at you over a loudspeaker if you miss the trashbin, where you aren't free to buy what you want, and have to pay confiscatory taxes for government services that are going bankrupt?

The difference beteween american law and british is that we trust our citizenry, whereas yours are assumed to be so stupid they can't cross the street without the nanny cam telling them they have the light.

Lastly let's not forget the whole reason we wrote our "piece of paper" is so you can't come back and try to impose your imperialistic, nanny-state type government on us again.
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Posted: Oct 12th 2007 3:36PM PoisonedAl said

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Hahah, and you still all wonder why we all think Americans are idiots. I've been to the US and I know that's not true, but seriously, comparing CCTV to wire-tapping? Jesus fucking christ on a cracker! I would point out the massive holes in your logic, but what would be the point? You're clearly an idiot. Fuck off and watch Fox News.
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Posted: Oct 12th 2007 3:53PM Crono141 said

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No, really Poison Al I want to hear your explanation of how audio and video serveilance of the common citizens on the street all the time is acceptable, but tapping lines that have made calls to known or suspected terrorists in the past is not.

Lets hear some brit logic on this, since all us americans are so stupid.

Its times like these I'm glad our forefathers kicked your forefathers asses and won our freedom, TWICE.
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Posted: Oct 12th 2007 3:59PM (Unverified) said

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American here and I can easily point out the difference between tapping someone's phone and pointing cameras at the road.

The road is public. Your phone line is private. Tapping your line is breaking your privacy. Watching you cross the street is breaking your...

Not to mention we have those road cameras too. Just not as wide spread.
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Posted: Oct 12th 2007 4:05PM Crono141 said

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So unwarranted audio and video serveilance is OK with you, but tapping lines of suspected terrorists isn't.

For the record: I don't like the video serveilance we have here on the roads either.
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Posted: Oct 12th 2007 4:09PM (Unverified) said

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The road is public ground. Cops don't need a warrant to inspect it. They don't need a warrant to watch it. I'm not saying tapping known terrorists line is a horrible deed but it isn't great either. What are the cameras going to do to you? Watch you cross the street? Give you some more incentive to obey the law while you're out in public? Catch a car accident so there's no confusion? Catch murders on tape? What? What's so horrible about it?
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Posted: Oct 12th 2007 4:15PM Crono141 said

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Its the principle of the thing, Kazi. Free governments don't spy on their citizens, even in public, for no reason. Watching "just in case something happens" is a very poor excuse for treating your entire population like potential criminals.
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Posted: Oct 12th 2007 4:16PM PoisonedAl said

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Oh yeah, your "forefathers." Bar one they were all rich landowning slavers that didn't want to pay tax. It's nice to know America isn't controlled by a small group of rich, self-serving arseholes any more... Oh wait, never mind. I won't get drawn into an a pointless argument because you can never win an argument with an idiot. An idiot can't tell when they have lost. Also playing TF2 is more fun. However, I will point out that I hate CCTV, and make rude gestures at them whenever possible. My last post was to illustrate that fact that tapping your phone is far more intrusive then watching you shop for cornflakes. That and you're a fucking moron that doesn't deserve any more of my time.

I think I'm going to be a Demoman this time.
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Posted: Oct 12th 2007 4:21PM Crono141 said

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When its a tax we had no say in paying, yes. And if you knew more history, you'd know it went beyond just the tea tax. Colonists were legally required to board British soldiers in their homes, no matter how roudy or distasteful they were, and the colonists had no say in this. The tea tax also was only leveraged against the colonies against their will (the rest of the empire wanted them to foot the bill for the french and indian war).

Point is, fast forward 200 years, we're the worlds only superpower, and your country is a small collection of islands in the frozen north of Europe.

Maybe you should join the EU, you might be more relevant that way.
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Posted: Oct 12th 2007 4:27PM (Unverified) said

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Ever hear of traffic police? Should they be rid of too? Your logic is odd.
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Posted: Oct 12th 2007 4:31PM Crono141 said

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"Ever hear of traffic police? Should they be rid of too? Your logic is odd."

Ok. Lets play a game. Lets pretend we don't have the technology for video serveilance. Would you be comfortable with a police officer following you around everywhere you go in public?

Then why would you be comfortable with this?
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Posted: Oct 12th 2007 5:09PM (Unverified) said

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If they were breathing on my neck, yes, but that's a whole different issue. If they were at every street corner, no.
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Posted: Oct 12th 2007 6:02PM (Unverified) said

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It's ok, when poisoned al continues to give up every freedom he has, like all the europeans like to do, pretty soon he will be unable to post here for obvious safety and security reasons, and we won't have to read about him rationalizing getting screwed. Meanwhile we are idiots, but his dumb ass is defending a country that is treating him like he is not able to handle playing a stupid toy.

With minds like his, no wonder the british empire met its end.
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Posted: Oct 12th 2007 11:08PM hvnlysoldr said

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Common sense isn't common.
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Posted: Oct 13th 2007 11:38AM (Unverified) said

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I'd like to point out that the majority of CCTV cameras are privately owned so your flawed logic that the 'government is watching our every move' doesn't hold much substance.

CCTV cam's set-up by local councils go in city centres and areas of high crime. It's not like I can walk out of the door and see a CCTV camera watching me from the end of the street because that just doesn't happen unless you live in an area that's been plagued by trouble for years.

If a camera stops another innocent kid being stabbed to death (or at least catches the killer) then I'm all for them.
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Posted: Oct 13th 2007 11:43AM (Unverified) said

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@Crono.

Maybe you should do some research before stating that the UK should join the EU because, last time I checked, we WERE in the EU.

China is fast becoming a superpower so, you know, good luck with staying at the top for long.

'Point is, fast forward 200 years, we're the worlds only superpower, and your country is a small collection of islands in the frozen north of Europe.'

Yup, and that small collection of islands once ruled most of the known world. Our Empire days are long over but you can't deny that British influence is what helped create the world today (regardless of whether or not it's screwed).
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Posted: Oct 12th 2007 12:49PM dasiki said

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What a complete load!! The auhtor clearly has no sense of the current political climate surrounding games in the UK, it is not a mainstream issue, people don't care if one gets banned or another doesn't. Mountain and molehill. As for a link between the politicians and Church, this is the UK not America.
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Posted: Oct 12th 2007 1:27PM PoisonedAl said

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Right. Not many here are ultra religious and the ones who are are "cake or death" protestants, who aren't really bothered by much as long as it's not chaolic.
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Posted: Oct 12th 2007 12:49PM (Unverified) said

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haha, i wonder if they banned Saw and it's sequels too. they were only rated R in america, yet are just as gory as manhunt
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Posted: Oct 12th 2007 1:06PM (Unverified) said

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Hostile was R here and there showed it in england (becaues they said it was "art"), and that was MUCH goryer and more sence of torture then ANYTHING in man hunt. Games and Movies are at double standered.
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Posted: Oct 12th 2007 12:50PM kinshadow said

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So we know they hate violence, but the real question is "do British games have more T&A"?

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Posted: Oct 12th 2007 1:39PM PoisonedAl said

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Yes, and more naughty words too. Violence sets off the sensor far more then tits and saying "fuck" a lot. To be honest are want to see tits then I want to see violence, but I'm a crazy Brit.
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Posted: Oct 12th 2007 12:54PM (Unverified) said

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Well, in the case of Fahrenheit (Indigo Prophecy in the US), yes. Sex scenes were cut out of the US release.
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Posted: Oct 12th 2007 2:12PM (Unverified) said

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That's always bothered me. As far as sex and violence go America is very backwards. Violence keeps coming and coming, yet the more harmless of the two gets cut. lol what?
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Posted: Oct 12th 2007 12:57PM (Unverified) said

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they need to make it come out on 360 instead
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Posted: Oct 12th 2007 1:06PM (Unverified) said

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As a British gamer this saddens me. It's not that I like Manhunt, I thought the original was terrible IMO and had no interest in no.2, but the fact that our government is calling for tighter controls on games is ridiculous.

I would argue that films such as Saw I - III, Hostel and the like, are far more bleak and callous in their tone, yet they are ok for us?
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Posted: Oct 12th 2007 1:04PM (Unverified) said

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lol imports? The govrenment can say stores can sell it, but I'm sure there's nothing wroung with importing. The 360 doesn't even have region lock either, so at lest with 360's game importing is a dream.
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Posted: Oct 12th 2007 4:39PM (Unverified) said

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Don't try to Americanise British politics. I'm not going to bad mouth the amendment as i know its very dear to you. I would like to say that British politics is a very different beast but it works and has worked for hundreds and hundreds of years (give or take a civil war :p).

What the article says has a basis of truth to it but as other Brits have said its not headline news. The connection between the COE and the government is pretty weak - congregation sizes have been falling for years.
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Posted: Oct 12th 2007 1:23PM ThornedVenom said

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Better having a war over this than to have nothing at all. Think about all of the unserviced countries, not directly targeted by the industry, and who have to pay extra to play legal games regardless of the income of the area.

I'm talking about Thailand with 90 dollar DS games, for example. Oh, and while staying on the subject, Thailand has a worse censuring policy than Britain if you wanna get into the details.

This comment isn't that much constructive to the debate, it's just there to relativize the situation on different scales.
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Posted: Oct 12th 2007 1:24PM (Unverified) said

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It's a lamentable state of affairs that sees public opinion fall on the side of condoning and encouraging censorship in a creative industry. I frankly thought British society had gotten over this with the whole video nasty scare. We can only hope it doesn't get too much worse, else it'll be a truly sad time to be a UK gamer.
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Posted: Oct 12th 2007 1:25PM (Unverified) said

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Games are a big issue here in the UK?

I've watched news ever freaking day and Games get mentioned whenever Nintendo releases a huge sales figure and I heard about the Manhunt ban on the news once.

Gordon Brown did say that he's calling for tighter restrictions on games, but lets face it, if he acts like much more of a bell-end the Tories will get in. I mean trying to outlaw the 24 hour drinking? That was the only good thing Blair managed.

Basically Joystiq blew it way out of proportion and manhunt is a crappy shock-value game that no one cares about. Seriously, is anyone actually into those crappy games?
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Posted: Oct 12th 2007 1:36PM (Unverified) said

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The article seems kinda confused.

Generally the BBFC has worked pretty well for years, although they do tend to reflect current public opinion. (not that thats a bad thing).

I'd certainly take their ratings over the majority of the "cut it to pg-13" ratings they get in the US. They are also far more sensible when it comes to rating games like GTA and Oblivion, meaning that the so-called scandals had no effect here.

The first ammendment isn't some hol grail that the whole world aspires to... its a small bit of a legal document restricted to a single country. (and even that country seems to bend it sometimes. )

Heck, it can get overturned by congress pretty easily if they wanted to. (or if they get in a panic about another 9/11).

If you ask 90% of british gamers (over the age of 12) they'd support most of the BBFC's ratings.. and they'd take the british "use common sense" approach over the US "lets legislate everything then fight over it in court evermore" approach.

The real issue is that its gonna be used to attack the ESRB in the US... and i'm not sure they don't deserve it this time. Fromt he sound of it, the edits don't really do much to affect the tone of the game.
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Posted: Oct 12th 2007 1:36PM (Unverified) said

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ps. Its the 2nd game thy've rejected in 25 years. Hardly the evil empire.
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Posted: Oct 12th 2007 1:38PM (Unverified) said

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what other game did they reject? :O
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Posted: Oct 12th 2007 2:24PM Crono141 said

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I'll agree that common sense is better than "legislate then fight it out". But you've got to remember, the united states has over 300 million citizens and has a geography that touches the two largest oceans on the planet. Common sense in California is not the same common sense in South Carolina, and when we have idiot people and idiot politicians, the need to legislate a government stance becomes important.

Of course, we could all have all the common sense we wanted if the idea of state's rights and state self government didn't die right after the Civil War (remember kids, the US Civil War was fought over the rights of the states to govern themselves, not slavery)
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Posted: Oct 12th 2007 3:13PM (Unverified) said

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Wow, amazing, someone that understands federalism.

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