We understand why Stephen Totilo at MTV's Multiplayer blog is concerned about the lack of rap music in rhythm games like Guitar Heroand Rock Band. He noticed that when playing drums on "Sabotage" (the closest thing that Rock Band has to rap) he was bored by the lack of structural changes in the song. Totilo says that he's not the first to realize this: Even Harmonix chief Alex Rigopulos has said that some big changes would need to made to the Rock Band formula to accommodate rapping.
But we would submit that both need to do some outside-the-rock thinking. There are lots of rap tracks that we think could be fun. We present the above video as Exhibit A. If your tastes run a bit more Old School, we've got another after the break. What would your picks be?
Rap can be good, in fact it's good as often as any other rhythmic or lyrical device in music. To me the most important things are melody and harmony (big Debussy fan here), but that certainly doesn't discount rap.
What you find in the chart's might be termed RnB, but I prefer Crunk or Urban Pop as terminology. Basically the record studios have taken things we as a society at large associate with black people (basically they're characterised as Neanderthals), allowing them to market incredibly simple music as cultural.
The crunk game would be the easiest game in the world. Press a continuously, while shouting one of four lines into the mic!
Rhythmically applied poetry has a place anywhere though. Ironically, Indigenously African music is some of the most complex in the world, though that's a big pool to be dipping my toe into.
Got a bit into sociology there, but to summarize, I think you're missing out Fernando.
I'd have to agree with Fernando here. Rap doesn't usually fit into categories such as "Rock" Band or "Guitar" Hero. *IF* a rap song happens to have a guitar in it, it is usually a looped riff which wouldn't be very difficult or fun to play. As for incorporating rap into ROCK Band, while the vocals could be challenging and the bass substantial, the drummer would be bored as hell.
First, +1 to "Granted" for putting K-Os on the list. He is one rapper who you could easily put into a game like (like, not specifically) "Rock Band".
Second -1 to Fernando. People are always on you about your allegiance to all things Nintendo. Normally I am ambivalent about a lot of the things you say. But something about your overall attitude towards rap music has rubbed me the wrong way. You have a really myopic viewpoint when it comes to rap. Although I can't fault you for only being exposed to mainstream rap, there are tons of good rap artists out there. You need to be more open to that fact, instead of lumping all of the rap industry into one dustball and throwing it in the trash. Might I recommend the following artists for you to listen to:
Mos Def Talib Kweli The Roots K-Os Common Cee-Lo (Specifically, "Cee-Lo Green and His Perfect Imperfections", although Cee-Lo as Gnarls Barkely is suitable as well) Slum Village A Tribe Called Quest
Once you sample some of the above artists, it would be great to see if your opinion regarding rap has changed...
I think most rap is awful, but I think there's a lot of potential for a really awesome hip hop music game. Just look at what people have been doing with the Wiimote and DJing and such for proof of that.
I'm not entirely sure how you could incorporate that into a Guitar Hero/Rock Band set up, though. The vocals would be simple enough to do, but, as many have noted the bass track and drums would become a bore in the majority of cases.
Personally, I'd be interested, at least (even though I'm not big on rhythm games) in a hip-hop that featured artists like Wyclef, the Roots, A Tribe Called Quest, Nujabes, Michael Franti/Spearhead, De La Soul, Talib Kweli, Beastie Boys and others. They could even spread it out to include bands like Jamiroquai, the Chemical Bros or even branch it off in Reggae/SoCal fusion style territory.
But Fernando, how do you define an instrument? That's such a broad tone?
Is it an instrument just because you can hold it in your hand? What about the vocalists out there, doing incredible things. They should not be considered musicians?
Is it an instrument because it makes music? My MicroKorg hooked up to Orion Platinum makes wonderful music. Although due to the nature of the software and instruments, I could never perform live.
Or is it an instrument because it keeps a rhythmic flow? In which case the GOOD mc's have an instrument since a skilled rap artist could create music even without the backbeat.
Some of my favorites tunes are from the Nes (Megaman) and Super Nes too... and that songs was created in a synthesizer because of technical limitations of the hardware...
I'm 100% sure that this songs was first created in a studio, with people playing their instruments.
@Fernando: Although I am not 100% sure like you, I will accept your point for the sake of argument. Let me also point out that the music on the records a DJ spins was also originally created by people playing real instruments.
@Josh* "Oh god, here come the middle class white kids. "play an instrument or gtfo!""
It's pretty widely known that a HUGE majority of rap album sales come from middle to upper class Caucasians. Don't remember the % I read (in several places), but it was around 60-70. So... you're stupid.
I remember Paraper good times. It proved that rap could be used in rhythm games and rock band lends itself well to rap. Using the rock remixes of rap songs would fit pretty easliy into Rock band but it wouldn't work well on GHIII.
Your exhibit A does more to reinforce my point that to contradict it. Your old-school pick is more convincing. That one WOULD be fun to play. Hey, that song even has a Master Chief reference, so it has to come to games at some point
Well, hate to say it but there is already a game that would lend itself very well to hiphop music games. Tragically, it requires Konami to get their ass in gear and not continue to bungle their current Benami support. It's called Beatmania. You have the turntable, you have the tones you bring into the track. It's an excellent DJ sim but because it IS Benami, it's current focus is more along the lines with Dance, Trance, and Euro music.
I mean, frankly, a Korean developer needs to get into this mix. Why? Well, aside from Harmonix, most US developers can't make a music game to escape a bear trap. Japan is... well, Japan. Look only as far as Benami for an explanation. But Korea, both Andamira (Pump It Up series) and Pentavision (DJ Max series) embrace rap and hip hop as part of their distinctive styles. Get a Korean company focused on a hip hop game and you'll get results.
But American deved games? Let's just put it this way... 50 Cent Bulletproof, 25 to Life, True Crime, Saints Row. An American developer would get too wrapped up in "thug lyfe" than the actual music. Hell, the artists are the same way but still.
Although I STRONGLY prefer the current focus of Beatmania IIDX, I agree that the game would work very well for hiphop and rap. (As seen in the original Beatmania games =p)
s256, I'm not complaining about the current trend of IIDX. Far from it. I recently ordered my copy of 13th from Play-Asia. But you and I, having both played IIDX in it's full glory must both admit Beatmania's debut, like DDR, in the US was just tragic and sad. And since Konami still hasn't properly launched the series in the US yet, why not make that a focus for the US mixes? But sometimes I forget.... this is Konami. The only one who could take a sure fire hit like Guitar Freaks and release only 1000 copies.
Dammmnnnnn. That would be next to impossible (I'm still on Medium on drums). But playing some ?uestlove beats would be a treat. I've even got a drumstick from a Roots show that I use for Rock Band. Yeah, I'm lame.
Yes, the Roots do play instruments. But to the original point, they mostly play repetitive beats. That's not to say they don't have talent or aren't good to listen to, just that simulating their repetition in a video game might not be so fun.
Damnit, Chris! Here I was, looking down the comments, delighted I might be the first one to point out how unbelievably hot it would be to emulate ?uestlove in Rock Band, and you beat me to The Roots reference. Damn you! (Of course, you live in Philly, so I'll let it slide.)
Normally, I'm not to happy with the way you wield the banhammer around here, but I've warmed up to you now that you mention that you listen to The Roots. Mos Def, Talib Kweli, K-Os (as mentioned earlier), and The Roots are pretty much all the rap I listen to. All of the manistream rap which is uninspired at best, is what chokes ingenuity coming from groups like The Roots.
But I really don't agree with this whole 'wouldn't work, repetitive beats' thing, ALL music has repetitive parts, normally in two-bar or four bar groups, then returning to it after another group of four or eight bars. And it's only emphasized when you simplify a song to 5 colored buttons, that you're doing nothing but hitting on time. If you think some of the songs we're all playing on 'Rock Band' aren't repetitive (especially the last 16 or 32 bars of some of the songs) then you're not being honest with yourself. ALL songs on these games have some repetition, from verse to chorus to verse again, and in that sense you're just being naive if you think hip-hop doesn't follow tried-and-true pop-music song structure.
The difference would come in the lyrics and the ability for the mic/software to detect if you were really hitting the verses, which is a big part of what 'rap' is in the first place. That other 'hip-hop' game that came out about 3 years ago was fun, but once you discovered you could just go 'Rah ta ta taaah rah bah maa ma maaa' into the mic at the same cadence as the song you were supposed to be 'spitting,' it was a severe bummer.
Oh, by the way: people not liking genres of music and then trying to explain it on the internet is lame.
While the percentage of bad music in rap is among the highest in any genre, and it is perfectly understandable if someone decides to avoid all rap, generalizations like this do not hold water.
Someone like you, enduring years of 'Nintendo is a kiddie system', should appreciate that.
@Fernando: The dictionary definition you link to includes vocal virtuosity. Clearly, I was not referring to the backing track on this one (for that, I would second Christopher Grant's recommendation of the Roots).
For reference, I am a guitarist myself, my biggest heroes being Robert Fripp and Allan Holdsworth. So yes, I would say I am familiar with the term.
"Musicians focused on virtuosity are commonly criticized for overlooking substance and emotion in favor of raw technical prowess."
Everyone has different tastes. Some people actually like Dragon Force ( I find it boring and hearing them live hurts the ears ) but whatever. Some people just like hearing pure shredding on guitars while others like something simple and melodic.
When it comes to rap, I have to agree and say that about 95% of the stuff you hear, ESPECIALLY on the radio, is crap. Good rap can be likened to good poetry because it'll actually have a deep meaning and speak from the soul. Problem is, most good rap is not mainstream.
Either way, enjoy what music you like, and stfu about whatever you don't like. That approach works best.
Party like a rockstar Party like a rockstar Party like a rockstar Party like a rockstar Party like a rockstar Party like a rockstar Party like a rockstar Party like a rockstar TOTALLY DUUUUDE
I mean has anyone heard that Ay Bay Bay song. I want to drive a nail deep into my ears every time I hear it.
And then there is that Stronger Faster Longer or whatever the f song that the NFL and every other damn sports show is shoving down our throats. I hate that song!
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 6)
Fernando Rocker @ Nov 28th 2007 10:36AM
I hope not.
ChickenSmasher @ Nov 28th 2007 11:23AM
"I don't like it so its not music!"
Whenever anyone even mentions rap. So annoying.
Ethan @ Nov 28th 2007 11:42AM
Rap can be good, in fact it's good as often as any other rhythmic or lyrical device in music. To me the most important things are melody and harmony (big Debussy fan here), but that certainly doesn't discount rap.
What you find in the chart's might be termed RnB, but I prefer Crunk or Urban Pop as terminology. Basically the record studios have taken things we as a society at large associate with black people (basically they're characterised as Neanderthals), allowing them to market incredibly simple music as cultural.
The crunk game would be the easiest game in the world. Press a continuously, while shouting one of four lines into the mic!
Rhythmically applied poetry has a place anywhere though. Ironically, Indigenously African music is some of the most complex in the world, though that's a big pool to be dipping my toe into.
Got a bit into sociology there, but to summarize, I think you're missing out Fernando.
rTwelve @ Nov 28th 2007 12:00PM
[insert my prior rant about console fanboys here, except replacing "console" with "music genre"]
Spartacus @ Nov 28th 2007 12:32PM
I'd have to agree with Fernando here. Rap doesn't usually fit into categories such as "Rock" Band or "Guitar" Hero. *IF* a rap song happens to have a guitar in it, it is usually a looped riff which wouldn't be very difficult or fun to play. As for incorporating rap into ROCK Band, while the vocals could be challenging and the bass substantial, the drummer would be bored as hell.
Now jazz or R&B, that's another story...
3cubed minus 3squared plus1 @ Nov 28th 2007 12:41PM
It actually wouldn't be a bad idea. Jay-Z and Lil' Jon have remixes with rock bands so its plausible.
But what I really want to see is Rock Band Latin Edition. Oh man it would be so awesome if it included an accordion!
GRANTED @ Nov 28th 2007 1:20PM
K-OS.
Crono (NDF - Knight of the Old School) @ Nov 28th 2007 2:17PM
Oh man, I would kill for Jazz Band.
ThornedVenom @ Nov 28th 2007 3:55PM
Just make a game wth a mic and a music sampler.
teenagertc @ Nov 28th 2007 9:03PM
First, +1 to "Granted" for putting K-Os on the list. He is one rapper who you could easily put into a game like (like, not specifically) "Rock Band".
Second -1 to Fernando. People are always on you about your allegiance to all things Nintendo. Normally I am ambivalent about a lot of the things you say. But something about your overall attitude towards rap music has rubbed me the wrong way. You have a really myopic viewpoint when it comes to rap. Although I can't fault you for only being exposed to mainstream rap, there are tons of good rap artists out there. You need to be more open to that fact, instead of lumping all of the rap industry into one dustball and throwing it in the trash. Might I recommend the following artists for you to listen to:
Mos Def
Talib Kweli
The Roots
K-Os
Common
Cee-Lo (Specifically, "Cee-Lo Green and His Perfect Imperfections", although Cee-Lo as Gnarls Barkely is suitable as well)
Slum Village
A Tribe Called Quest
Once you sample some of the above artists, it would be great to see if your opinion regarding rap has changed...
ill trooper @ Nov 29th 2007 5:35AM
You don't need to worry, Fernando, the Wii can't handle a game like 'Rock Band' anyway.
samfish @ Dec 1st 2007 1:34AM
I think most rap is awful, but I think there's a lot of potential for a really awesome hip hop music game. Just look at what people have been doing with the Wiimote and DJing and such for proof of that.
I'm not entirely sure how you could incorporate that into a Guitar Hero/Rock Band set up, though. The vocals would be simple enough to do, but, as many have noted the bass track and drums would become a bore in the majority of cases.
Personally, I'd be interested, at least (even though I'm not big on rhythm games) in a hip-hop that featured artists like Wyclef, the Roots, A Tribe Called Quest, Nujabes, Michael Franti/Spearhead, De La Soul, Talib Kweli, Beastie Boys and others. They could even spread it out to include bands like Jamiroquai, the Chemical Bros or even branch it off in Reggae/SoCal fusion style territory.
Also, a Jazz music game would kick ass.
Josh* @ Nov 28th 2007 10:37AM
Oh god, here come the middle class white kids.
"play an instrument or gtfo!"
Fernando Rocker @ Nov 28th 2007 10:45AM
The music is created with instruments... at least the good music.
FidliousWong @ Nov 28th 2007 11:00AM
But Fernando, how do you define an instrument? That's such a broad tone?
Is it an instrument just because you can hold it in your hand? What about the vocalists out there, doing incredible things. They should not be considered musicians?
Is it an instrument because it makes music? My MicroKorg hooked up to Orion Platinum makes wonderful music. Although due to the nature of the software and instruments, I could never perform live.
Or is it an instrument because it keeps a rhythmic flow? In which case the GOOD mc's have an instrument since a skilled rap artist could create music even without the backbeat.
unfriendly_cat @ Nov 28th 2007 11:23AM
Fernando: The music is created with instruments... at least the good music.
Some of my favorite music comes from Amiga and SNES soundtracks; would you argue that there was no good music there?
Fernando Rocker @ Nov 28th 2007 11:26AM
cat
Some of my favorites tunes are from the Nes (Megaman) and Super Nes too... and that songs was created in a synthesizer because of technical limitations of the hardware...
I'm 100% sure that this songs was first created in a studio, with people playing their instruments.
unfriendly_cat @ Nov 28th 2007 11:33AM
@Fernando: Although I am not 100% sure like you, I will accept your point for the sake of argument. Let me also point out that the music on the records a DJ spins was also originally created by people playing real instruments.
Delgado @ Nov 28th 2007 11:43AM
@Josh*
"Oh god, here come the middle class white kids.
"play an instrument or gtfo!""
It's pretty widely known that a HUGE majority of rap album sales come from middle to upper class Caucasians.
Don't remember the % I read (in several places), but it was around 60-70.
So... you're stupid.
Crono (NDF - Knight of the Old School) @ Nov 28th 2007 12:09PM
No, delgado, you are the stupid one because thats exactly what he was saying to begin with.
phihexy27 @ Nov 28th 2007 6:08PM
@Josh
I agree completely.
rTwelve @ Nov 29th 2007 12:57AM
Here's the part where I mention electronica/techno/dance
and how instruments are involved
and maybe then here a snide remark about DDR's success
here I would then say "so there!"
Vince @ Nov 28th 2007 10:39AM
maybe you're forgetting Parappa The Rapper.
Micheal82 @ Nov 28th 2007 1:44PM
I remember Paraper good times. It proved that rap could be used in rhythm games and rock band lends itself well to rap. Using the rock remixes of rap songs would fit pretty easliy into Rock band but it wouldn't work well on GHIII.
X @ Nov 28th 2007 10:40AM
Huh... I wonder why they wouldn't include rap in *Rock* Band. That doesn't make sense at all...
stephentotilo @ Nov 28th 2007 10:41AM
Oh Justin...
Your exhibit A does more to reinforce my point that to contradict it. Your old-school pick is more convincing. That one WOULD be fun to play. Hey, that song even has a Master Chief reference, so it has to come to games at some point
-Stephen
FidliousWong @ Nov 28th 2007 10:53AM
Well, hate to say it but there is already a game that would lend itself very well to hiphop music games. Tragically, it requires Konami to get their ass in gear and not continue to bungle their current Benami support. It's called Beatmania. You have the turntable, you have the tones you bring into the track. It's an excellent DJ sim but because it IS Benami, it's current focus is more along the lines with Dance, Trance, and Euro music.
I mean, frankly, a Korean developer needs to get into this mix. Why? Well, aside from Harmonix, most US developers can't make a music game to escape a bear trap. Japan is... well, Japan. Look only as far as Benami for an explanation. But Korea, both Andamira (Pump It Up series) and Pentavision (DJ Max series) embrace rap and hip hop as part of their distinctive styles. Get a Korean company focused on a hip hop game and you'll get results.
But American deved games? Let's just put it this way... 50 Cent Bulletproof, 25 to Life, True Crime, Saints Row. An American developer would get too wrapped up in "thug lyfe" than the actual music. Hell, the artists are the same way but still.
s256 @ Nov 28th 2007 2:02PM
FidliousWong: It's "Bemani".
Although I STRONGLY prefer the current focus of Beatmania IIDX, I agree that the game would work very well for hiphop and rap. (As seen in the original Beatmania games =p)
FidliousWong @ Nov 28th 2007 3:29PM
s256, I'm not complaining about the current trend of IIDX. Far from it. I recently ordered my copy of 13th from Play-Asia. But you and I, having both played IIDX in it's full glory must both admit Beatmania's debut, like DDR, in the US was just tragic and sad. And since Konami still hasn't properly launched the series in the US yet, why not make that a focus for the US mixes? But sometimes I forget.... this is Konami. The only one who could take a sure fire hit like Guitar Freaks and release only 1000 copies.
Christopher Grant @ Nov 28th 2007 10:41AM
What about The Roots from Philly? They've got instruments.
fyreblazer @ Nov 28th 2007 11:24AM
THANK YOU.
What I wouldn't give to see someone play the drum solo at the end of "You Got Me" on hard in Rock Band.
Christopher Grant @ Nov 28th 2007 11:39AM
Dammmnnnnn. That would be next to impossible (I'm still on Medium on drums). But playing some ?uestlove beats would be a treat. I've even got a drumstick from a Roots show that I use for Rock Band. Yeah, I'm lame.
DG @ Nov 28th 2007 12:33PM
Yes, the Roots do play instruments. But to the original point, they mostly play repetitive beats. That's not to say they don't have talent or aren't good to listen to, just that simulating their repetition in a video game might not be so fun.
riggs @ Nov 28th 2007 12:44PM
thank god someone mentioned the roots.
Ross Miller @ Nov 28th 2007 1:02PM
Damnit, Chris! Here I was, looking down the comments, delighted I might be the first one to point out how unbelievably hot it would be to emulate ?uestlove in Rock Band, and you beat me to The Roots reference. Damn you! (Of course, you live in Philly, so I'll let it slide.)
Dude, you should be cherishing that drumstick ...
kojo87 @ Nov 28th 2007 5:24PM
Rage Against the Machine is pretty close to Rap. as close as i'd want in Guitar Hero any way.
a guitar game will include rap when rap includes guitars. sound fair?
teenagertc @ Nov 28th 2007 8:50PM
Normally, I'm not to happy with the way you wield the banhammer around here, but I've warmed up to you now that you mention that you listen to The Roots. Mos Def, Talib Kweli, K-Os (as mentioned earlier), and The Roots are pretty much all the rap I listen to. All of the manistream rap which is uninspired at best, is what chokes ingenuity coming from groups like The Roots.
ill trooper @ Nov 29th 2007 5:36AM
Good catch on the Roots.
But I really don't agree with this whole 'wouldn't work, repetitive beats' thing, ALL music has repetitive parts, normally in two-bar or four bar groups, then returning to it after another group of four or eight bars. And it's only emphasized when you simplify a song to 5 colored buttons, that you're doing nothing but hitting on time. If you think some of the songs we're all playing on 'Rock Band' aren't repetitive (especially the last 16 or 32 bars of some of the songs) then you're not being honest with yourself. ALL songs on these games have some repetition, from verse to chorus to verse again, and in that sense you're just being naive if you think hip-hop doesn't follow tried-and-true pop-music song structure.
The difference would come in the lyrics and the ability for the mic/software to detect if you were really hitting the verses, which is a big part of what 'rap' is in the first place. That other 'hip-hop' game that came out about 3 years ago was fun, but once you discovered you could just go 'Rah ta ta taaah rah bah maa ma maaa' into the mic at the same cadence as the song you were supposed to be 'spitting,' it was a severe bummer.
Oh, by the way: people not liking genres of music and then trying to explain it on the internet is lame.
EKAJ13 @ Dec 5th 2007 1:50AM
The Seed by The Roots would actually be pretty cool. It has the instruments and it has rapping as well as just singing in the song. Best of both?
jsn @ Nov 28th 2007 10:42AM
it will happen, but god why? Rap music is the most boring, repetative nonsense out there.
Fernando Rocker @ Nov 28th 2007 10:44AM
The rap isnt even music... no virtuosity in any rap song.
FOXHOUND @ Nov 28th 2007 10:45AM
I disagree. Reggaeton is *way* more repetative and less skilled.
Fernando Rocker @ Nov 28th 2007 10:47AM
I dislike reggaeton as much as I dislike rap or hip-hop or pop.
unfriendly_cat @ Nov 28th 2007 11:15AM
Fernando: "no virtuosity in any rap song"
This is simply untrue. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-dJ6xbrWHQ
While the percentage of bad music in rap is among the highest in any genre, and it is perfectly understandable if someone decides to avoid all rap, generalizations like this do not hold water.
Someone like you, enduring years of 'Nintendo is a kiddie system', should appreciate that.
Fernando Rocker @ Nov 28th 2007 11:19AM
cat
I heard the same tune in all the song... do you even know what "virtuoso" is?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtuoso
unfriendly_cat @ Nov 28th 2007 11:29AM
@Fernando: The dictionary definition you link to includes vocal virtuosity. Clearly, I was not referring to the backing track on this one (for that, I would second Christopher Grant's recommendation of the Roots).
For reference, I am a guitarist myself, my biggest heroes being Robert Fripp and Allan Holdsworth. So yes, I would say I am familiar with the term.
pwnetheus @ Nov 28th 2007 12:37PM
Hey Fernando, virtuoso != good
Even in that link you provided,
"Musicians focused on virtuosity are commonly criticized for overlooking substance and emotion in favor of raw technical prowess."
Everyone has different tastes. Some people actually like Dragon Force ( I find it boring and hearing them live hurts the ears ) but whatever. Some people just like hearing pure shredding on guitars while others like something simple and melodic.
When it comes to rap, I have to agree and say that about 95% of the stuff you hear, ESPECIALLY on the radio, is crap. Good rap can be likened to good poetry because it'll actually have a deep meaning and speak from the soul. Problem is, most good rap is not mainstream.
Either way, enjoy what music you like, and stfu about whatever you don't like. That approach works best.
riggs @ Nov 28th 2007 12:46PM
hey thanks for helping me recognize who are the idiots on this website.
Grammar freak @ Nov 28th 2007 10:44AM
Party like a rockstar Party like a rockstar Party like a rockstar Party like a rockstar Party like a rockstar Party like a rockstar Party like a rockstar Party like a rockstar TOTALLY DUUUUDE
JL @ Nov 28th 2007 11:49AM
lol! Most rap is just like what you said there.
Repeat repeat repeat repeat.
I mean has anyone heard that Ay Bay Bay song. I want to drive a nail deep into my ears every time I hear it.
And then there is that Stronger Faster Longer or whatever the f song that the NFL and every other damn sports show is shoving down our throats. I hate that song!