Women in Games: Pinckard, Tory talk about industry, Jade Raymond

She really is so fine.

lol wtf link or its bullshit

Jesus, where have you been on the Internet this whole time? Were you not born in 2002?

http://www.gamegirladvance.com/archives/2002/10/26/sex_in_games_rezvibrator.html

My god, I didn't know they started blogging so young! Shit I imported that game before Jane's review and I still knew of it. Was the talk of the internets for months and still comes up in coversation everytime the creator of Rez's name comes up in press.

Well since you obviously know so much about what a producer at Ubisoft does, why don't you tell us where else a "real" producer's name would be in the credits?

Spielburg has got to have at least one movie where he's only recieved one credit...does that make him "just a pretty face to market it?"

Of course it does 'Nick the Hero of Canton'.

*whispers quitly at Nick to step aside and tell him something*

Guys like this get their logic from the same place Jack Thompson and Hillary Clinton do, they can't be reasoned with, just leave them be. They've already got thier punishment, which is quite an ironic punishment heh.

and it was

although it turned out that the game was pretty darn good :)


btw did anyone else see that jade raymond webcomic a month ago where she was giving bj's for review scores? lol

...One glaring problem with your post: The game /is/ good... So your logic is flawed.

Why can't people just admit she's a good producer? So many people in all of these forums just popping off with posts like yours, not even realizing that they're exemplifying exactly the type of double-standard being discussed.

You certainly proved their point, then.

Wait, the point was that Jade Redmond is really hot, right? *confused*

So the business aspect of game development means nothing and could be done by a bimbo? Huh... that's interesting. So I could just get a bunch of programers and push them into a room with computers and say "See you in 18 months!" come back and have a game as good as Assassin's Creed*?

*Note: Haven't played the actual game but I doubt it is that terrible.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000229/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0397535/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0418689/
Jackass

Who is this "Speilburg?"

I'm not so sure they put her face on everything. I had no idea who she was (and I had never seen her face) until the OP. All of the commercials, all of the hype seemed to be about a guy who knocked over bystanders in slow motion and occasionally killed someone. Obviously if you're here you read a lot of game news, but the average gamer doesn't read that much game news, so the average gamer wasn't going "buy Jade's game" because the average gamer doesn't know who Jade is.

Note: I'm not saying how they depicted Jane in the comic was right, it just erked me knowing I come from a long line of "people" who worked hard and honestly to gain the same rights and respect as others and when they got them they appreciated those rights and didn't abuse those rights or the condition of their previous status. Not saying others in my "race" didn't but my perticular family line didn't from what I know.

Maybe everytime someone pokes fun at a woman or makes sexual comments about them we should do the same for a man AT THE SAME TIME. You know, just so they realize things are fair and equal.




(For the men) Jade Ramond is hawt!
(for the women) I'd love to shine Peter Moore's dome!

Someone needs to explain rule 34 to her.

Haha, indeed. I actually saw a guy wearing a shirt that read, "Rule 34" on the front while I was taking my finals.

Jane interview was irritating at best. My focus is in gender studies, yet this was boring.

Also, for someone so focused on women's right and equality - don't post a story on your blog about getting off with a ps2 peripheral.

http://www.gamegirladvance.com/archives/2002/10/26/sex_in_games_rezvibrator.html#000141

Yeah, it wasa in the past, but you did it to your self.

@Jon

Well I haven't gotten off on the game myself, but my ladyfriend of 5-6 years has haha. Looking back at it, it was pretty immature. I mean I still make fun of her for it.

Are you kidding me? Or just absolutely delusional? I beg you to show me a comic where a male videogame producer or designer gives blowjobs to gamers in order to sell a videogame. Or something even remotely equivalent.

When a male designer makes a videogame that absolutely sucks, I have never seen comments denouncing that the only reason they have a job is their looks.

Yes, the game wasn't as great as it was hyped to be - (though, to be fair, it was far from a complete creative and technical failure). Yes, it's true, Ubisoft pushed Jade Raymond's image a bit too much. But the kind of abuse she receives goes way beyond the treatment men get.

But even if women and men were getting equal treatment, unfounded behavior that's offensive to individuals shouldn't be tolerated in the first place, whether they are men, women, gay, latino or transgendered. Gamers should be fair to everyone, including women. How can you think that asking for a stop of insulting behavior constitutes abusing their "same rights and respect"?

jeez speedy gonzalo, calm down

guys are made fun of for being horny and violent, girls are made fun of for their looks or whatnot


that's how the internet works

@ gonk:
"guys are made fun of for being horny and violent, girls are made fun of for their looks or whatnot"

yes, because the comments and graphic depictions about Jade Raymond stopped at "making fun of her for her looks". i'm sorry, but we are not talking about nearly the same level of degrading comments, aggression or offensiveness.

"that's how the internet works"

no, that's how people LET the internet work. we (gamers) need to stop accepting this kind of behavior in forums and comments like it's harmless juvenile humor. well, juvenile it certainly is.

@Gonzalo Alonso

I'm sorry buddy but apparently you didn't read what I said or she said. I never once said it's right to insult or make fun of someone. What I was doing is reading between the lines (and sometimes with Jane there is no need for that). Actually Gonzalo Alonso if you want some comics or pictures of Producers/Developers giving said consumer "head" to buy the game then I'll give you some links. Typically companies don't parade their producers around talking about the game though, so they are usually nameless/faceless men in said comics.

She made the whole thing an issue with being a woman, not with being a respectable person or a human. She brought gender into the equation and made it a problem. She is part of the problem not the solution. Couldn't imagine how I could explain my stance any better.

If you really wanna get into it I'd much rather be protrayed sexually once than constanly mocked by the world over something (kinda like Ken from the Sony PS3 press conference, but he did kinda have it coming to him, and it was funny).

All that said I will restate that Jane made a little harmless satire into a huge ordeal about womens rights and their position in society. Not saying the comic was right but it wasn't a right thing to do to a HUMAN not just to a woman.

"harmless satire"
nope, sorry, i doubt this was harmless to jade raymond.

"if you want some comics or pictures of Producers/Developers giving said consumer "head" to buy the game then I'll give you some links"
please do. though i still won't think it's right, nor that behavior like that happens to men to the same extent as it happens to women.

"She brought gender into the equation and made it a problem."
this whole discussion IS about gender. if you believe that Jade Raymond's gender has nothing to do with the creation of that web-comic or the tons of pigheaded comments about her, then you're being incredibly narrow-sighted.

@Gonzalo Alonso

You're coming off to me as the type of guy/girl who would hit a child if she/he told you a knock-knock joke or outwitted you with a grade-school riddle. Just letting you know.

Can't we all just tolerate one another, if you're an American that is what our nation was founded on. That said if you don't like the way the internet is here or on 4chan go make you're own little corner of the internet where like-minded people can join you and everyone can have a wonderful time agreeing with each other.

Hrm, if you aren't familiar with the "sucking dick to get things done" phrases popular in satire then you probably wouldn't catch that. In fact the comment protrayed is typically directed at a man (though until now I would not have thought of them as a man or woman until you decided this was an issue of gender) whether it be spoken, written, animated or drawn depends on whos doing/saying it. For some people they can express themselves better in art than they can word of mouth or pen, and some people find their point can be made better through certain mediums, others just select one for the profound reactions.

It's because I'm aggravated. But i think my aggravation is justified. I'm sorry if this whole topic puts me in an argumentative move.

"Can't we all just tolerate one another, if you're an American that is what our nation was founded on. That said if you don't like the way the internet is here or on 4chan go make you're own little corner"
I find this more than a little ironic. I'm not the one asking you to leave. I'm just (perhaps too) seriously arguing why I consider some of your thoughts counterproductive. And I consider every comment I post in this thread today absolutely worthwhile - so I think I'll stay. But thanks for the suggestion.

Wow, people are getting pretty worked up about this. I checked out the comment, decided it wasn't all that funny, and moved on. Wasn't that hard. I'd like to think that most other people did the same. I'd also like to think that if it was me the comic was about, I'd still think the same thing. And then I'd move on. I know there are idiots out there, and I expect nothing less from them, but I don't let them ruin my day.

I'm always amazed when people parade themselves around for publicity, wanting to get their face out there (for whatever reason), and then get all worked up when the inevitable parody comes out. So what? That's what happens to everybody! Sometimes I wonder if the overreaction comes from the fact the parody hits a little too close to home.

I'm getting the impression that Ms. Raymond was indeed trying to have it both ways: I'm a FEMALE game designer and look how good I am, but when somebody points out that I'm saying that I'm a female, I accuse them of bigotry.

I couldn't care less about who designs the games. I never wanted to know the name Jade Raymond, or Cliffy B, or any of these people. Make a good game, and let it stand for itself. Or how about Denis Dyack, how gets really demeaning comics made about him all the time for being a whiny Frenchman? I've never heard him complain.

As I learned from the Breakfast club: If you mess with bull (by putting yourself out there), you're gonna get the horns (some idiot's going to say something dumb about you). Just prove yourself, don't whine about it.

@aristokrat

I appreciate the reply, I guess that's kinda what I'm trying to say only that it belittles women. She's trying to have it "both ways" as you said. Like all the perks with none of the responsibilites attached. I wasn't talking about Jade Raymond just so we are clear. I was talking about JANE, that is JANE from game girl advance. Maybe that is where things started getting a little heated and confusing. It isn't right to say such things about people you don't know, but I think it's a fair parody of what was going on. I'm not very good at putting my thoughts into words but hopefully someone understood it. They say most people "think in words", well I couldn't be sure if that is true since I "think with pictures." Thoughs are best expressed by philosophers, let them deal with these social problems.

Also it is a little silly that these producers/developers are getting the celebrity status but they are doing it to themselves. With that celebrity status you better be ready for you're name to be drug through the mud as much as it is splashed with glitter (hahaha, really "fabulous" way of putting it I know). In fact I actually find it harder to like games from Epic after it was publicly given a face by a guy with such an irritating nickname (CliffyB that is). Of course there was already Mark Rein, but he's always been a cockbite, and I can handle that.

"I thought women wanted to be treated as equals, and not special. They need to make up their damn minds. It's equal or as women were in the past. Not both."

You've missed the point. It's not a case of "one person can take the teasing and another person can't." The humor isn't equal. The satire is not on equal levels.

The comic in question does not show Peter Moore or Cliffy B giving blowjobs to reviewers, frame after frame, in a very graphic fashion, with virtually no punchline whatsoever, simply ending with cum on Peter Moore's face, or jiz in Cliffy B's goatee. There's no fucking punchline even! I'm sure that imagery would be considered weird and disturbing by many in it's target audience, who might consider that a little 'homo' for their liking, and everyone would have something like "I think he's GAY" to hold over his head like the REZ blog is held over Pinckard. So it wasn't equal.

If the comic showed Jade Raymond in the breakroom shaving her head because she thinks it's going to help her achieve some of that Peter Moore magic that he's brought to presentations, well, then that could be considered a professional satire, and maybe even funny. But this comic showing a bikin-clad Jade Raymond is just fucking lame, it's like some lame anime porn drawn by a cartoonist with a generic style, who likely gets no ass, male or female. It's really not a case of Jade Raymond over-reacting either. I mean, what the fuck? Draw Cliffy B giving blow-jobs and you'd get the same reaction from me: "This cartoonist has no ideas, and has no taste. Not using his skills very well. Go back to drawing batman on deviantart."

And Jon posts:

"Jane interview was irritating at best. My focus is in gender studies, yet this was boring.

Also, for someone so focused on women's right and equality - don't post a story on your blog about getting off with a ps2 peripheral.

http://www.gamegirladvance.com/archives/2002/10/26/sex_in_games_rezvibrator.html#000141

Yeah, it wasa in the past, but you did it to your self."

This IS EXACTLY what this discussion is about - you are essentially saying that a woman can't delve into sexuality in her blog without EVERYONE pointing back at it like it's some sort of internet equivalent of "She was askin' for it wearing that dress." But we've all seen jokes and gags about men fappy-fapping to Laura Croft. I'm not holding those guys to things they wrote about and explored in the past, saying that their opinion can't be taken seriously because they discussed sex. This is the double standard: "Women discuss sex: naughty and interesting, and promiscuous I bet! To the point of nullifying any future opinion on the topic" vs. "Men discuss sex: funny, no harm done, I'd buy you a beer, we can be buds." All proven by this and other threads on this incident.

As someone claiming to take 'gender studies,' Jon, I'm surprised that you don't even notice yourself falling victim to that biased train of thought. You can't even see the forest for the trees.

My good chum, please read more thuroughly through my comments. My post where directed at JANE from gamer girl advance and her own personal comments on the Jade Raymond thing. And what Jon was pointing out is that JANE majors in 'gender studies' or is fond of the field I believe. Not to sure about that. But I still think the comic was ment to be satire with a distasteful graphic twist to garner attention, not an attack on Jade Raymond. But let me remind you, my comments are coming from Jane's reaction to this and the over-all 'vibe' I get from her. I hate when people take advantage of their previous hardships for personal game, they are picking and choosing when to invoke one of the two status's they've had when it benifits them the most and that my friend isn't equality. That is "above equal" where the person seems to have equal rights as another person but has meaningless perks attached that they want to keep along with those rights. It's one or the other, you can't have both, well should all have the same amount of responsibility as one another. The same for the good and the bad. Affirmative action is an easy example for part of the point I'm trying to get across. It makes minorities "above equal." I'm a minority and it sickens me to think someone who deserved a job better than me might lose their opportunity because someone has to make a race quota for their company.

oh please. Satire? How is portraying Jade as a complete moron satire if it's not based on reality? Jade is smart, eloquent and has a degree in computer science. This is not satire, it's just a vindictive little comic. I'm so tired of every idiot using the internet to say the offensive crap they always wanted to say and then hiding behind "satire" and "it's just the internet". Jade was hounded with the type of creepy vindictiveness that's only reserved for women (I'm still waiting for those links to drawings of male devs being ejaculated on, Anticrawl). I assume that's what Jane meant when she said she was affected by the comic as a woman.

@how_much_I_carrot

Wether it is right or not to make such an offensive peice doesn't determine if it's satire or not. Satire usually isn't friendly and used to attack or expose people for what they may truely be based on facts and/or opinions. You may not like the satire or even be offended by it but in many cases that is a way to gauge the quality of said satire. The reactions where quite profound and everyone took notice, especially the one being "attacked/exposed." One thing that shocked me is how this came around to Jade Raymond. Only thing I can think of is the programmers working under her paid for a subscription to the Something Awful forums and was viewing that perticular thread while on the job, that or Jade is infact a forum troll haha. Also I'm well aware that the comic didn't originate on Something Awful but that's where it got it's fame.

Here are two very simple definitions that don't quite grasp the entirety of satire:

(1) Satire (n) - A literary work or illustration in which human vice or folly is attacked through irony, derision, or wit.
(2) Satire (n) - Irony, sarcasm, or caustic wit used to attack or expose folly, vice, or stupidity.

Either apply with the comic made about Jade Raymod but.....

That is a NON-ISSUE in these series of replies! I was addressing Jane Pinckard's response and mannerisms for Christ sake!

Well I'm off for my Financial Accounting Final Exam (horrible choice for an elective by the way but if you ever plan to start you're own business one day it couldn't hurt). I expect more dumb replies from people who only read one or two lines from my posts and took them way out of context.

Peace and love baby,
Chao

Quick note to add is that "satire" is not always directed at a single person or thing and is quite often used to expose/attack an idea/happening/event/belief/etc.

In this case it tried to attack the stupidity of ideas surrounding her while at the same time attempting to expose Jade Raymond for what she is based on the creators suspicion and the vice of Ubisoft for parading her around as a sex symbol to promote the game further and garner extra publicity. From my point of view the damn thing is dripping with satire and it is certainly exactly what some uninformed gamers believe and have spouted out loudly across the internet what they think of her credibility. To top it off, it got the point across and people noticed it. I could actually go on and on about how it is what it is (besides being rather cruel, as that has been abundantly clear from the start).

Sure yeah right, may not be acceptable in the modern day mainstream society but society has very narrow-minded views about what is right and wrong. Condeming things without even knowing a thing about them (SEE: Video Games).

"Either apply with the comic made about Jade Raymod"

No they don't and I think you wrote the second comment because you realize that. Satire needs to be grounded in reality. Portraying an individual as dumb when it's obvious they're not is not satire, it's a personal attack. You can't "attack or expose" things that don't exist.

"In this case it tried to attack the stupidity of ideas surrounding her while at the same time attempting to expose Jade Raymond for what she is based on the creators suspicion and the vice of Ubisoft for parading her around as a sex symbol to promote the game further and garner extra publicity."

huh? How can the comic attack the stupidity of the ideas surrounding her and validate them at the same time? Besides, there is absolutely nothing in the comic that hints at that. This is a pretty straight forward attack of Jade as a "sex sells" marketing tool.

My point is- the comic was not satire but a personal attack based on gender (Jane was definitely right about that). This would never happen to a man in the industry (still waiting for those links of Cliffy B getting bukkaked). This is why you can't claim this is equal treatment. That's what you original comment was about, right?

IT IS A MATTER OF MOTHERFUCKING PERSPECTIVE

speedy, carrot. WHAT THE FUCK. There have been web comics depicting men in the industry as not only THIEVES, MURDERERS, HOMOPHOBES, ANIMALS, fuck, EVEN SATAN HIMSELF. They been drawn taking/giving bribes, augmented sexual orientation...and so much more


So what you're saying here is thatJade being depicted performing sexual acts for reviews is SOMEHOW not even equal to, but WORSE than depicting someone like Peter Moore as EVIL, or a murderer, or John Romero (iirc) AS A GIRL

(just think of hte controversy if they depicted Jade as a man..?)

Gimme a break guys. If you have that much sand in your vagina over this issue, go open a public beach

wow... not gonna read this whole angry thread, but anticrawl: Just because it isn't the norm on the internet, doesn't mean she and/or Ubi didn't have the right to defend herself from a bullshit comic. I've heard this argument about "if you want equal rights you gotta take the bullshit of the system too!!", and there is some truth to that, but it is within a person's rights to try and change the system (for better or worse) too, and to react to situations in ways they see fit to produce the best outcome for themselves. That's just being human. The status-quo doesn't always have to be enforced just based on the fact that it is the status-quo.