Tomb Raider dev: PSN less constraining than Xbox Live
by Alexander Sliwinski 
{ Jan 3rd 2008 at 10:57AM }
Cooper is basically talking about Xbox Live Marketplace's size restrictions more than the service. He believes console games being sold online is inevitable and the gates are slowly opening for that to happen in various channels. While he's right that digital distribution is going to keep getting better, we still want to see some additional savings for consumers if we're not getting boxes, manuals, and all the other incidentals. We had the cost-reduction dream for advertising in games too, but ad-heavy and no-ad games are still the same price.
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
dsub @ Jan 3rd 2008 11:01AM
I would like to commend this Tomb Raider developer on pointing out the obvious. Thanks for telling us what we already knew.
SoulBlade @ Jan 3rd 2008 11:03AM
ha you already beat me to it.
I
E.J. @ Jan 3rd 2008 3:15PM
While his comments are obvious and I whole-heartedly agree with, you can't help but to laugh at his baseless points:
"BELIEVES the PlayStation Network WILL offer more flexibility than Xbox Live for delivering content in the FUTURE."
He's talking like a Sony PR rep.
bearxor @ Jan 3rd 2008 11:03AM
While I currently agree, I feel that Microsoft wouldn't have a problem changing some policies if the industry moves in that direction during this console's lifespan.
Carlos @ Jan 3rd 2008 12:38PM
"While I currently agree, I hope that Microsoft wouldn't have a problem changing some policies, if it's in their benefit, during this console's lifespan."
See what I did there? It's as if you wrote for Gamespot.
rom @ Jan 3rd 2008 11:07AM
It's only a matter of time till XBL gets rid of the size limit. The "Xbox Originals" section is proof of that. I believe that they will eventually add 360 games in that section, or games made specifically for the service kind of like "Warhawk" on the PSN.
Princess Skittles @ Jan 3rd 2008 11:44AM
The size limit is ONLY for Xbox Live Arcade games and it's really only there because they screwed up putting a console out there without a hard drive so they could say "Xbox 360 starting at $299!"
Xbox Originals, Phantasy Star Online expansion pack and the Tomb Raider Anniversary "expansion pack" are already proof that they're opening the gates for other (bigger) things.
rom @ Jan 3rd 2008 11:58AM
Yes, the size limit was ONLY on XBLA games. However, before "Xbox Originals", the ONLY way you could put a FULL game for sale on their service was through the XBLA. That, in essence, restricted all games released on LIVE to be within the MS target size.
Princess Skittles @ Jan 3rd 2008 12:59PM
Phantasy Star Universe: Ambition of the Illuminus came out two weeks before Xbox Originals did. While it is an expansion and could skirt the argument on a technicality, I thought it was a step in the right direction myself for this (not that I personally want a full game download service if the prices are the same as retail, to be honest).
puffin @ Jan 3rd 2008 11:08AM
Of course the size limit is an arbitrary number placed only on Arcaded developed titles. Live seems to handel demo, videos, and even full versions of console games just fine (despite the Xmas bog down).
Maybe the Tomb Raider developer should spend his time coming up with a new IPO rather then worrying about the capabilities of Xbox live.
FidliousWong @ Jan 3rd 2008 11:16AM
I'm always amused by comments like this. Someone talks about the issues of whatever service, no matter who, and the initial reaction... someone always attacks the person, not the point that was made. I just love imagining this kind of scenario in the political race.
Kerry: And I feel a unified Health Care system would better benefit our elderly and underprivelaged.
Bush: Now what would you know about Health Care while wearing those pants?
mcatrage @ Jan 3rd 2008 11:27AM
He attacked the point then he attacked the guy.
Zeus the God @ Jan 3rd 2008 5:36PM
@jason maybe its because PSn is almost never down 14 items so far off of PSN. Superstar dust, everyday shooter, gripshift, flow, toy home,warhawk, mortal combat, super puzzle fighter all awesome and the download speed isn't that bad just wished it installed directly.
Jason @ Jan 3rd 2008 11:09AM
Yeah... and I am sure its easier to put stuff on to a network that hardly anyone uses... really... there are hardly ANY good games for the PS3... There probably arn't that many people actually using the network. XBOX Live, when its down for a second people come out of the woodwork on the Internet complaining about it.
They need to use the bandwidth on the PSN for something... right?
People also like being able to trade in their games... digital distribution would eliminate that kind of stuff... plus you can't lend them to friends, etc...
Phranctoast @ Jan 3rd 2008 11:28AM
your argument is stale.
FidliousWong @ Jan 3rd 2008 11:32AM
I'm not going to touch the obvious ignorance displayed in regards to PSN, I'm just going to say if you HAD a PS3, you'd realize how close you are to becoming a special olympiad. But I will attack this...
"People also like being able to trade in their games... digital distribution would eliminate that kind of stuff... plus you can't lend them to friends, etc..."
Most DLC games are $10 releases, which means you lose out on the whole $1.20 Gamestop would have given you. But on the upside, suddenly the option of buying used off Ebay won't kill the margins of smaller developers who, due to the used game market and piracy, usually have to choose between closing shop or joining one of the bigger studios that will halt all creative work being done so they could work on Spongebob Squarepants.
Go fig...
Smoke_Dawg_187 @ Jan 3rd 2008 11:33AM
I'll agree with you Jason. But I'm sure in a few more year the network will get a lot more use.
I'll have to agree with Michael Pachter that these consoles aren't going away for a long time because they are so powerful. I can see MS licensing out the console tech to other CE companies to help continue to extend the life of the system.
Trev @ Jan 3rd 2008 11:50AM
I, on the other hand, WILL touch on the obvious ignorance displayed in regards to PSN.
@Jason
Try being less butthurt because someone implied that /one aspect/ of another service has advantages over your precious XBL. There wasn't an overall superiority mentioned, just that PSN has less restrictions than XBL.
PSN does allow developers greater freedom than XBL and is a more open network, while XBL provides a more unified service BECAUSE it's so highly regulated and locked down. To force consistency is to place constraints and allowing freedom gives the freedom for a bad developer to provide a shitty service while it allows a good developer to do something innovative and unique to their game.
I can't say I have an opinion on which network is superior overall. PSN provides less, but is free, doesn't use convoluted points and many games have the lag-free centralized servers that XBL lacks. XBL on the other hand provides a more robust service and a wider variety of content available for purchase, but you're being charged for something that's free everywhere else. Advantages and flaws on both sides.
Oh, and the "lol no gaems" thing is just stupid at this point. You're going to have to try harder.
maylon @ Jan 3rd 2008 11:59AM
I am totally an xbox fanboy, and even I know there are great games onthe Ps3, whoever says that there arent is just in denial. I mean, SonyHAS made a console or 2, stop being idiots and just admit othersystems have good shit. Sorry that was off topic, its only that I amtired of the 'Ps3 has no good games' argument.
Snatcher (MDF - Halo Ring) @ Jan 3rd 2008 12:09PM
I have an XBOX360 and a PS3. XBOX Live is better by far. Not to mention Microsoft actually packages a mother-f'in headset with their console for online gaming. Digital distribution is fine and dandy for XBOX live titles and smaller fare but I dont see it EVER becoming mainstream until we develop better delivery technologies. I'm not waiting hours for a title to download.
Basically I have to pay the same price as retail AND I have to incur the cost of having to power my PS3 for the whole time. The developer doesnt have to manufacture, ship, or pay for retail space and they charge the SAME FU**ING PRICE? I'd rather have the media in hand so I can build a catalog. Plus if my HD craps out then what. Redownload ALL of my downloaded games again??
samfish @ Jan 3rd 2008 2:30PM
Personally, I think there are more good games on the PS3 than the 360.
Although that looks to change by the end of the year.
TK00 @ Jan 3rd 2008 7:56PM
Fideous:Do you think that digi-distribution will be the end of piracy? It will not drop in the slightest. Whatever DRM they wrap it in will be cracked in a nano-second; we'll probably see an increase in piracy.
This doesn't even touch on the fact that world is EONS away from the bandwidth to easily distribute multi-gig games.
xFenixKnightx @ Jan 3rd 2008 11:12AM
Uncharted DF>Tomb Raider =)
Yea they do need a new IP
Phranctoast @ Jan 3rd 2008 11:31AM
I hope Tomb Raider stays the way it is. Legend and Anniversary were great. Uncharted and Tomb Raider are so different that comparing them doesnt seem fair to either.
TR is 90% platforming, and 10% action, while Uncharted was 10% platforming, and 90% action.
xFenixKnightx @ Jan 3rd 2008 11:48AM
Very true is what you speak of my young padawan.
Im just saying alot of ppl see these games as being the same and probably go for the action in U DF over puzzle solving and platforming of TR
Phranctoast @ Jan 3rd 2008 12:17PM
its such a shame that having the ability to hang from a ledge automatically gets your game compared to tomb raider of prince of persia, yet every other game that comes out seems to be a friggin fps and thats forgivable.
speaking of... I want another prince of persia. Assassins creed wet my pallet enough.
samfish @ Jan 3rd 2008 2:33PM
I prefer Tomb Raider...at least the last two.
They're more old school like that.
NATO_Duke @ Jan 3rd 2008 11:14AM
MS has already changed their policies a little, and as the market opens I would bet the release the gates and let a lot more size on their downloads.
Speaking of constraints, I also think that Lara Croft is a bore. But hey, not like they won’t keep making the same old games with her over and over.
Greyseal @ Jan 3rd 2008 11:18AM
Lower prices for downloadable games seem unlikely... back when games shifted from cartridges to discs, the cheaper physical materials never materialized as lower prices. The extra money was eaten up by the increased development costs of modern games, and that's likely to happen again as games become downloadable.
Games have pretty much hovered around $50 for two decades, despite inflation. It's hard to accuse developers of charging too much.
FidliousWong @ Jan 3rd 2008 11:27AM
Actually, you're wrong.
Average Genesis game was a $60 release for the longest. Average SNES game was $70. Some, particularly size heavy, actually went up to $85 (Chrono Trigger, FFIII). During the Playstation vs. N64 era, N64 games were on average $15-$20 more than PSX games. Because of the media, actually. In fact, because of the size limits on cartridges, the clear graphical advantage of N64 was often lost with over anti-aliasing and excessively repetitive textures.
HOWEVER, the cost of developing games from the PSX vs N64 era has dramatically increased and defeated the cost advantage optical media had. In fact, that's why, for the first time since the 16bit wars, games are going UP in price.
Greyseal @ Jan 3rd 2008 11:38AM
I still remember most being closer to $50, but you're right about a lot of them. I remember shelling out $75 for Mortal Kombat III on the Genesis (which is absurd in retrospect).
But the point is taken. I think it's impressive that prices have remained so stable over the years. Even with the recent rise in game prices, I imagine they're considerably cheaper than they were in the 8/16 bit days once inflation is accounted for.
Geist @ Jan 4th 2008 3:57PM
I definitely remember seeing Secret of Mana for $99.99 at Toys 'R' Us, here in Canada.
Mystic @ Jan 3rd 2008 11:28AM
I'll take less contraints over the need to INSTALL demos anyday. I couldn't believe it when I realized all demos, and some games, need to be INSTALLED!
Altairio @ Jan 3rd 2008 11:24AM
I can't wait to buy your digitally distributed retail product for full price so I can have less hard drive space, no resale value, and be unable to share with friends.
Shagittarius @ Jan 3rd 2008 11:35AM
Glad I'm not the only one that hates the idea of digital distribution.
NATO_Duke @ Jan 3rd 2008 11:42AM
I like digital distribution for add-ons and small games, but the larger titles I like to have on disc as well. There is some comfort to knowing I have the full version there in physical form, without having it saved on the HD.
Jerk Face @ Jan 3rd 2008 11:48AM
Digital distribution is Baller Status. I love it - when done correctly. Steam is the best thing ever to happen to PC gaming, in my opinion. I love being able to buy a game and play it without having to run to the store. It's a really well put-together service.
Now, if game prices won't go down as a result; then fuck the whole thing. That is the idea, right? No disc manufacturing, no need to pay all those employees.. it better fucking well bring a price drop.
Otherwise once you take away the ability to resell the game when you are finished and the fact that, as mentioned, you can't share the games with friends.. well then that defeats the whole purpose.
So while digital distribution is clearly the way of the future - we the consumers need to demand that it is done right.
deaftly @ Jan 3rd 2008 12:08PM
Please dont ever say Baller Status again
Jerk Face @ Jan 3rd 2008 12:16PM
LOL
It felt so absurd typing it that I had to leave it in!
Neil @ Jan 3rd 2008 11:31AM
Can't talk about all games, but there was a lot of savings if you bought Warhawk from PSN vs. buying the retail box, still I like owning the disc as I can lend it to a friend or sell it when I've gotten bored of it.
Jhongerkong @ Jan 3rd 2008 3:11PM
Thats because the retail copies of Warhawk included a free bluetooth headset if im not mistaken.
Jason @ Jan 3rd 2008 11:42AM
FidliousWong... they devs are not talking about making $10 games on the network... they are talking about making bigger, more expensive games. Like it or not, people trade in games... nowadays if you buy a game that doesn't have a great multi-player component they are only playable for a short time... those kinds of games need to be "trade-inable"...
Oh and I played Oblivion for like 5 months until I fininshed it... it sat on the shelf until a friend of mine bought a 360 and wanted to play it... then they borrowed it for a couple of months...
Don't try to blame used games and borrowing for the loss of sales to the game companies... If you make the console play real games that you can just download you open the door to much more piracy... well see how long it takes to crack the codes on those files and put them up on the net... game studios have to close shop because they make crappy games... not cause of the used game market...
This stuff is a business... businesses buy other businesses... the owners of a small studio that just made some money off a game are likly to sell out to bigger companies... it makes life easier... running a business is hard... and small studios can go underneath larger ones and concentrate on game development... not bookeeping!
FidliousWong @ Jan 3rd 2008 12:04PM
"FidliousWong... they devs are not talking about making $10 games on the network... they are talking about making bigger, more expensive games. Like it or not, people trade in games... nowadays if you buy a game that doesn't have a great multi-player component they are only playable for a short time... those kinds of games need to be "trade-inable"..."
Well, allow me to shoot this rebuttal. What DLC game doesn't have a great multiplayer portion or tremendous replay value? I mean, aside from Direct2Drive, I don't see too many services throwing single player centric experiences out the door. In fact, I have a feeling, should Shadowrun have been a $30 Downloadable only game, it would have faired a hell of a lot better.
"Oh and I played Oblivion for like 5 months until I fininshed it... it sat on the shelf until a friend of mine bought a 360 and wanted to play it... then they borrowed it for a couple of months... "
I know, what a ripoff, right? I mean, I bought Oblivion off of PSN and couldn't trade it in after I got tired of walking through fields and killing wolves. Of wait, no I didn't. Let's put it this way, the developer speaking about this issue last released a budget remake of the original Tomb Raider. Not a $60 game, a budget release. I'm sure when Tomb Raider 7 drops, it won't be built for DLC. But if they could have open channels to do more things like TRA and Sam & Max, actually episodic content, that's a good thing. Games like Oblivion, are not built around Episodic Content.
"Don't try to blame used games and borrowing for the loss of sales to the game companies... If you make the console play real games that you can just download you open the door to much more piracy... well see how long it takes to crack the codes on those files and put them up on the net... game studios have to close shop because they make crappy games... not cause of the used game market... "
So when a vast majority of the profits reaped by the Gamespot monster comes directly from used game sales and not new game sales, like they would have you believe, I'm not supposed to believe this has a significant impact on the industry at large. Especially not when this issue is constantly discussed every year at GDC for the past 7 years. These developers have no fucking clue how they could possibly be missing out on game sales when they only see $8 for the 3 total times that one copy of Halo 3 got sold. Meanwhile, Gamespot pays $24, sells for $55, and this money is totally going to the developers....
And by the way, Clover was not a crappy studio. Double-Fine is holding on by the skin of their teeth praying Brutal Legend is the hit Psychonauts should have been. Oddworld Inhabitants wonders why Strangers Wrath was a bargain bin title. Face it, kitten. Plenty of great studios constantly have to close their doors because they cannot get the mindset or sales needed to stay in.
"This stuff is a business... businesses buy other businesses... the owners of a small studio that just made some money off a game are likly to sell out to bigger companies... it makes life easier... running a business is hard... and small studios can go underneath larger ones and concentrate on game development... not bookeeping!"
You need to research publisher/developer relationships better. How about I break something down. When Volition was PUBLISHED by THQ, they had control. When they were bought by THQ, suddenly the lead character for Summoner 2 had to switch genders middevelopment because "chicks sell games." Their next project was The Punisher. Being owned by a publisher and being published are two drastically different things.
Joe Smith @ Jan 3rd 2008 11:51AM
I wouldn't expect huge savings for buying digitally. The manual, box, and disc all together only cost about $1 to $2. The biggest cost of goods in console games is the fee paid to the platform holder. You are still going to be paying for the development costs, marketing costs, corporate overhead, support, etc... Plus no platform is going to piss off retailers by charging less for online games than disc based games. They can't digitally sell you a console or accessories, so they need the retailers to be happy with them.
Eddie @ Jan 3rd 2008 11:56AM
Sony had the most successful console of the new millenium. They were bound to do SOMETHING better than MS.
maylon @ Jan 3rd 2008 12:01PM
I truly hope that was sarcasm.
Organic_Shadow @ Jan 3rd 2008 12:05PM
Haha yes, let's quickly comment negatively and move the conversation elsewhere because someone said something positive and PS3 related at the same time...
lawrence @ Jan 3rd 2008 1:13PM
sony is fucking up microsoft money and they know it so any idiot can see that by now you dont need a brain for that .oh and you think microsoft will stop charging games for will live to people are you think they will beg for mercy
deaftly @ Jan 3rd 2008 1:42PM
I tried reading your post like 5 times, now im in the hospital with a coma, thanks alot.
Leobebes @ Jan 3rd 2008 1:58PM
Do you realize you are so incoherent when you post your semblance of an opinion gets lost in translation. Just to make it easier on everyone just copy and past this on your posts..."I hate the xbox 360 and Sony can do no wrong because I want to mate with it and create wonderful protein folding cyber monkeys as a result of our holy union".
There just made it a lot easier on all of us.