NPR takes a condescending look at stories in games
Near the beginning of the interview, Joffe-Walt asks Staten, quite sincerely: "Isn't gaming all just, like, shoot-em-up? Why do you need story?" Clearly, she might not have been the best choice to do a piece on video games. In the future, NPR, please leave the video game stories to Heather Chaplin, whose recent piece "Video Games that Got Away" offered a positive and mainstream-oriented look at games, as opposed to a negative, narrow-minded one.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
ThornedVenom @ Jan 10th 2008 7:05AM
Dear Chana Joffe,
Games are becoming more complex and mainstream: deal with it, bitch.
Pimliconite @ Jan 10th 2008 9:31AM
A very complex and mainstream statement. You showed them.
GRANTED @ Jan 10th 2008 10:33AM
you are missing the point: anyone that loves halo enough to read NOVELS based on a hackneyed and very stereotypical video game-based story deserves to be made fun of. halo fanboys who Just.. Cant.. Get.. Enough.. are being taken advantage of by a writer and publisher who specialize in this kind of crap, and it's funny.
how can you tell if it's crap? if you wouldn't touch the book if you were not enthralled by the games.
aristokrat @ Jan 10th 2008 3:58PM
I thought the Halo books were highly enjoyable, coming from someone who has read the likes of Infinite Jest and Gravity's Rainbow. Though they weren't high-brow literary fare, they told a pretty decent story with good characterizations, etc. They were definitely better and less hackneyed than anything Dan Brown ever wrote, and look how well his books sold. I think the Halo books deserve a little more slack than all the haters are giving them.
SoxFan13 @ Jan 10th 2008 7:07AM
Maybe this is for all of Luke and Frankie's jabs at "Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me" on the Bungie Podcast.
Psaakyrn @ Jan 10th 2008 7:11AM
Step 1: Define Video Game
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Headache
Seriously, until someone writes down a proper definition of Video Games, the arguement of whether games contains stories as an essential part of their core mechanism will continue to be debated with no final result.
Scott Jon Siegel @ Jan 10th 2008 7:36AM
I hear what you're saying here, but let's go with the argument "some games contain stories," and criticize Joffe-Walt for not even being aware of the possibility.
Kenofthedead @ Jan 10th 2008 7:16AM
Poor gaming, still such a stigma attached to it despite all these years.
So sad to think the first real gaming worlds were MUDs, which involved nothing but reading, not that anyone cares.
Of course, this stigma isn't anything new. People not used to radio believed people would stop reading during the 20's and 30's.
Same for the tele when that become strong.
Comics were a supposed death blow to novels for children.
Lucky for us, gaming is becoming more main stream all the time and it will be accepted just as tele is.
Psaakyrn @ Jan 10th 2008 7:23AM
The problem is that while all the formats you mentioned are essentially communicative formats, video games are in another group entirely, since they're not always cummunicative mechanisms. (example: Wii Sports: No one is going to say that it tells a story in the traditional definition of a story.)
Zach S @ Jan 10th 2008 1:13PM
Yeah, because I Love New York is pure communication :P No, television and radio, especially in their birth, were major methods of entertainment, as is gaming.
Bob @ Jan 10th 2008 7:21AM
I've got some breaking news for you: except for very few exceptions, video game stories SUCK and video game writing SUCK.
The Halo series isn't one of those exceptions.
Psaakyrn @ Jan 10th 2008 7:30AM
For that matter, most video game developers don't understand that video games aren't suited for linear stories, and should stop writing linear stories for a video game. (Basically, if the story can be told in an identical fashion in a movie/cartoon by just removing all gameplay elements, then WTF are you making a game to tell it? Key word: identical)
(This goes especially for JRPGs. Chrono Trigger was like the last good videogame JRPG ever made)
Psaakyrn @ Jan 10th 2008 7:33AM
(For note: I still dislike the RPG elements in Chrono Trigger. The saving grace is that even by removing all RPG elements, it still makes for an amazing adventure game)
Psaakyrn @ Jan 10th 2008 7:33AM
(For note: I still dislike the RPG elements in Chrono Trigger. The saving grace is that even by removing all RPG elements, it still makes for an amazing adventure game)
animeman_59 @ Jan 10th 2008 9:19AM
I've got some breaking news for you: except for some very few exceptions. Stories in novels suck, stories in movies suck, stories in theatre suck, the writing in music sucks, and pretty much the majority of the written word sucks.... except for a few exceptions
We gamers pretty much had only 20+ years of our medium to produce classics. While everything else has hundreds of years. Movies for 100+.
Psaakyrn @ Jan 10th 2008 9:32AM
You lost the point entirely. The problem is not of the story sucking, it's that the story adds NOTHING to the game, and the game adds NOTHING to the story. Remove the game, you get a non-interactive movie. Remove the story, you get a dungeon crawler. Forcing the two together without thought of the inherent interactivity that video games are supposed to employ is the problem.
bm @ Jan 10th 2008 12:26PM
But I enjoy an RPG with a great story more than that same RPG without a story or the story by itself. What is this "problem" you speak of?
Some people just seem to always be looking for negatives when there really isn't much to complain about.
bm @ Jan 10th 2008 12:27PM
But I enjoy an RPG with a great story more than that same RPG without a story or the story by itself. What is this "problem" you speak of?
Some people just seem to always be looking for negatives when there really isn't much to complain about.
And what the fuck is wrong with joystiq's comment system lately?
ill trooper @ Jan 10th 2008 12:42PM
I gotta agree with Bob, his sentiment is exactly how I feel. The 'high art' isn't always there. The Halo story is cliché upon cliché. Seeing some of the comments on here with the worst spelling and incorrect word choice ("your/you're/there/their/they're"), I concur: it's apparent that some gamers DON'T read that much. I'm not judging, just mentioning what's obvious.
People trying to tell you about how games are art is like one of those lame, uncomfortable situations where your friend is trying to play you three albums from a band in 10 minutes and can't stop telling you about how amazing they are... Sometimes you just need to put it out there and give your reccomendation, and that's all you can to do. If the other party is interested, they'll see it. But you can't always waterboard culture down someone's figurative throat.
I mean, I don't expect much out of all of this; video games are a pass-time. A glorious, ever-evolving, amazing pass-time. It's one of the most fun and easiest ways to spend your time. Sometimes clever writing and good story-telling is involved. When both defensive gamers and skeptical critics try to make it more, it's a big eye-roller. Let's just have faith people will notice the good, expect more from the weak, and play these games.
Psaakyrn @ Jan 10th 2008 1:26PM
@bm
Still missing the point. You might enjoy a RPG with story more than one without. But did the gameplay add anything to the story, or would it have been better to watch the story and take out the tedious battles inbetween?
(oh, and random battles must die. Lousiest game-extending mechanic ever.)
Psaakyrn @ Jan 10th 2008 1:30PM
@bm
Still missing the point. You might enjoy a RPG with story more than one without. But did the gameplay add anything to the story, or would it have been better to watch the story and take out the tedious battles inbetween?
(oh, and random battles must die. Lousiest game-extending mechanic ever.)
@ill trooper
Theres' no point arguing with you, if only because the definition of video games is unclear. Based on your definition, that's all videogames will be. I prefer to see video games as a format in itself, and what you put inside determines what you get from it (leisure, educational, torture, etc)
A Pissed-off English Gamer @ Jan 10th 2008 2:16PM
I think you're the one missing the point; the story adds purpose to your tasks; the music adds atmosphere to your environs; the graphics and presentation define how you take in all these aspects as well as influencing gameplay. Every aspect of a game is as important as the last. Of course genres differ in what is involved in their content, but why should they all be unifrom?
Saying RPG elements serve no purpose in telling a story is to say that RPGs should not exist alltogether. Forego the music, graphics, and gameplay mechanics just because you can't take in more than one aspect of a game at a time? Hell no.
Mr Khan @ Jan 10th 2008 4:38PM
I'd say Fire Emblem is an example of a perfectly linear, story-driven title
Story in those games actually impact how i play the game. Characters i prefer (often based on their personalities) are characters i will use more often or cultivate. The biggest example of this was all the attention i gave to Jill in one Path of Radiance runthrough, i liked her story and her support conversations, so i made her into a goddess of battle
feh, i'm rambling...
Toasty @ Jan 10th 2008 5:18PM
"For that matter, most video game developers don't understand that video games aren't suited for linear stories, and should stop writing linear stories for a video game. (Basically, if the story can be told in an identical fashion in a movie/cartoon by just removing all gameplay elements, then WTF are you making a game to tell it? Key word: identical)
(This goes especially for JRPGs. Chrono Trigger was like the last good videogame JRPG ever made)
(For note: I still dislike the RPG elements in Chrono Trigger. The saving grace is that even by removing all RPG elements, it still makes for an amazing adventure game)"
Um, I'm not sure how to put this...but, I'll give it a shot. WHAT? This makes no sense. According to your reasoning, putting gameplay elements into a story, regardless of whether it's good or not, is wrong. But, if you remove all the RPG elements from Chrono Trigger, that's a-okay, even though the story could have been better if it wasn't a game at all.
I gather that you liked Chrono Trigger's story, in which case either you hate RPG gameplay in general, or you hate playing a game and experiencing a good story at the same time. In the first case, why would you suffer through gameplay you hate when many books/movies have stories that are just as good or better? And if the second is true, what's wrong with you?
Apparently it's impossible to enjoy a good story and fun gameplay at the same time. WOW, that's exactly what I thought I was doing for years! Thanks for showing me how wrong I was.
I'm sure you have a real opinion in there somewhere, but try making some sense next time.
Psaakyrn @ Jan 10th 2008 8:20PM
I've never said putting gameplay elements into a story is wrong. But the problem is that in most JRPGs, the gameplay elements has NOTHING to do with the story.
Taking for example, FF6.
Random battles: ??
Battles: Occasional story elements.
Battles without story elements: ??
Levelling system: ??
Equipment system: ??
Stealing system: ??
Inventory other than key items: ??
RTS section: first: ??, second: understandable
Basically, every battle except battles with story elements serve only to make the game/story artificially longer. The same can be said for most JRPGs (the strategy ones usually have story elements on every battle, so that's acceptable)
To give an example of where the gameplay elements actually messes up the story, FF7's "WTF can't I use phoenix down on Aeris" moment.
It's one of the same reason why WoW sucks: Too many time-sink elements just for the same of time consumption. (Well, more applicable at lv 70 really. @#$% fight dungeon 50 times to fight next dungeon another 50 times..)
Korova @ Jan 10th 2008 7:29AM
Not all games have or need a story. Does soccer have a story? No, but its still fun to play and watch.
Gamifying a story just help transport the listener/viewer/gamer into the tale. A good tale can carry along weak gameplay, and strong gameplay can carry through a weak story.
A strong story with great gameplay makes magic. Civilization I did it for me, cause I am a history buff. There are some others.
generic @ Jan 10th 2008 7:33AM
She sounds like she's a spoiled 14 year old who's brother plays too much. Why do they even let people with voices like that on the radio? Maybe I'm just spoiled by the CBC, but if that's an effective summary of NPR, then you guys down south are getting screwed out of your airwaves.
This piece confused me, as she's all over the place. She puts down gamers directly, then defends the backstory, but then ridicules the characters and content of that story. At first I thought it was just terrible production; that they edited her piece to seem more "edgy", but her intonation gives it all away. Her questions, while condescending, seem to slightly lean towards the defense of the back-story (in book form at least), in that they seem engineered to pull in cynics and reform them, à la Andy Rooney. Like Andy Rooney though, they fall flat and are obvious products of arrogance and old-man-bitch-rant. In the end, I wasn't so much angry with her portrayal of games, as I was left wondering how she got the job to begin with. That was borderline human interest fluff, with personal bitterness and ignorance written all over it.
shinsnake @ Jan 10th 2008 7:47AM
Yeah, that's exactly what I want. I want only people who will give a "positive and mainstream-oriented look at games." That's the dumbest thing I've heard today, but it is still early so perhaps you'll be topped. The only path to art is criticism. When something is not looked at with an eye and considered to be good or bad, it can not be considered art. Though that alone does not make it art, it can't be art without that. You want games to be accepted as art, you better hope like Hell that more mainstream press takes a critical eye towards it. And seriously, did you honestly expect NPR to offer a fair or balanced look at anything? Have you never listened to their coverage of politics? Have you never listened to their coverage of anything?
Scott Jon Siegel @ Jan 10th 2008 8:15AM
Keep in mind that there's a difference between constructive criticism and uninformed negativity. There's nothing constructive about Joffe-Walt's piece. Hell, it's not even critical. She doesn't say anything directly bad about Halo, it's story, or stories in games, but it's how she approaches the topic that's the problem. She undermines the work of the industry's writers, and mocks anyone who takes their work seriously. And there's no way of looking at that as a "good thing," let alone constructive.
generic @ Jan 10th 2008 8:19AM
You may be correct in arguing that art needs its critics, but this radio story isn't an art critic's perspective on a particular piece. It's an uninformed, uninterested, unprofessional person's point of view being projected through poor presentation. Wow, that's a lot of alliteration.
I'd have no problem with her story if it were pure, creative criticism, but instead of being nitpicky with the picture on the canvas, she's completely disregarding the entire canvas factory. And even then, it would be creative criticism if she included the reason or formula with which she arrived at such a decision, but we're given none, and can only assume that she simply doesn't "like" games.
"Like" is not an acceptable word in the art critic's vocabulary.
generic @ Jan 10th 2008 8:19AM
You may be correct in arguing that art needs its critics, but this radio story isn't an art critic's perspective on a particular piece. It's an uninformed, uninterested, unprofessional person's point of view being projected through poor presentation. Wow, that's a lot of alliteration.
I'd have no problem with her story if it were pure, creative criticism, but instead of being nitpicky with the picture on the canvas, she's completely disregarding the entire canvas factory. And even then, it would be creative criticism if she included the reason or formula with which she arrived at such a decision, but we're given none, and can only assume that she simply doesn't "like" games.
"Like" is not an acceptable word in the art critic's vocabulary.
MrBlank @ Jan 10th 2008 9:24AM
"When something is not looked at with an eye and considered to be good or bad, it can not be considered art."
That's the worst definition of Art I've ever heard! Art doesn't exist because some critic says it does. Art exists as soon as it's created. Even all the topless furries on DeviantArt are Art. Just because a critic assigns an arbitrary, subjective "good" or "bad" to it doesn't make it any less art.
Nekura @ Jan 10th 2008 7:50AM
This is a little OT, but I've found the people who work for NPR to be real jerks. Back when I ran a big web site dedicated to local bands, the Chicago NPR folks contacted me and wanted my site to provide them tons of information about local bands (they wanted to compete with the Tribune's Metromix music and dining site). All I asked was that they mention my site. "We can't do that," I was haughtily told, "We're *public* radio - we can't do advertising!"
They were perfectly willing to let me provide them content but couldn't even bring themselves to list the source. I stopped listening and pledging after that.
The attitude of this reporter is just another example of NPR looking down on us lowly normal people with their top hats and monocles and wondering what the big fuss is. Elitist bastards.
Sesur @ Jan 10th 2008 7:53AM
Tthis bitch is so dense. Her mind may explode if she ever sees Mass Effect. Her voice makes me want to slap the shit out of her.
baby sea tuna @ Jan 10th 2008 9:10AM
...unless she's ever seen an episode of Battlestar Galactica, 'cause the story's basically the same (not that there's anything wrong with that. Playing through a surrogate BSG storyline is one of my favorite aspects of Mass.)
Cyro @ Jan 10th 2008 11:10AM
I would love to slap the shit out of this bitch. Dam she is stupid!
generic @ Jan 10th 2008 8:20AM
Dah! Double-post. Sorry, the internets and/or joystiq forums are bonkers this morning.
Psaakyrn @ Jan 10th 2008 8:27AM
It's not you, it's the doppleganger profile 0. Profile 0 is a professional time traveller who somehow manages to go back in time, take someone elses identity, and post whatever they were going to post just moments before they actually do.
(Click on the profile and see how many people he's stolen the identity of)
animeman_59 @ Jan 10th 2008 9:27AM
Psaakyrn: I am Profile 0
or maybe... we're all Profile 0
in some way
hvnlysoldr @ Jan 10th 2008 1:41PM
I still beat 0's comment numbers.
Mighty Ponygirl @ Jan 10th 2008 8:22AM
As someone who read 727 pages of horrible Ayn Rand so that I could do an accurate comparison of BioShock to the Objectivist principles in The Fountainhead, yes, we do f---ing read.
(I like listening to NPR too, I'm surprised they ran this story).
Orenthol James Simpson @ Jan 10th 2008 8:31AM
Why do people (not the author.. but some people in these comments) totally rag on the quality of videogame stories, but almost always end up liking some of the worst, most shallow videogame stories out there, and prop them up as some of the greatest stories there are.
It's always the same type of people.
Typically play western games. Maybe they'll say they like some shallow old school RPG.
Hate anime. They hate the sixth season of Buffy. Or the fourth. Especially the fourth.
They pretty much hate any story with any depth at all. Seemingly finding all possible ways to rag on it, then they like the WORST stories out there for some reason or another.
At least 99.99% of these people also think Half-Life 2 has some hellishly awesome story that they magically concocted out of thin air.
baby sea tuna @ Jan 10th 2008 9:06AM
Good call on the 6th season of Buffy. I remember the internet blowing up about how poorly written it was and how Marti "Toxin" ruined the show and blah blah blah. I'm rewatching it now and, while it doesn't stand up with the best seasons, even the episodes I remember being "not that good" are still better written than 75% of TV shows out there.
...not that this has anything to do with video games. I just wanted an excuse to talk about Buffy.
Crono (NDF - Knight of the Old School) @ Jan 10th 2008 10:21AM
Sounds to me like you just don't like Sci-fi.
And Chrono Trigger still has the best story in a game I've ever seen.
Orenthol James Simpson @ Jan 10th 2008 11:35AM
Why would you gather that I don't like scifi? I love scifi! A lot!
Anyways, Chrono Trigger's story is incredibly shallow, with incredibly shallow characters, doing shallow things.. shallowy.
Also, to add to my previous rant, the haters mention, a word they love to throw around: Pretentious. They absolutely love that word.
"THIS GAME HAS A STORY, PRETENTIOUS!"
"THIS GAME HAS NO STORY! BEST STORY EVER!"
Tamer Brad @ Jan 11th 2008 8:52AM
Am I misreading or are you saying that anime generally has depth?
JDee26 @ Jan 10th 2008 8:34AM
I heard this story when it aired and I honestly don't know what your problem with it is. NPR assumes that it's listeners are all about 45 years old and have their own preconceived notions of what videos games are all about. Chana Joffe-Walt adopted this viewpoint to connect with her audience so she could better tell her story.
Sure, maybe it felt a little condescending to use seasoned gamers but because she posed questions to her interviewee,he was provide answers to clear up common misconceptions about gamers. So, when she asks "Do gamers read?", Mr. Staten is able to reply that they do and that they are highly literate. This is certainly not the freshest approach to game journalism but it doesn't deserve your wrath.
Crono (NDF - Knight of the Old School) @ Jan 10th 2008 10:22AM
Please. Asking if any group of people in the popular culture "reads" reeks of condescension. It shouldn't even BE a question.
thadwhit @ Jan 10th 2008 12:48PM
Honestly alot of gamers I know do not read. Yes they can physically read, but they choose not to. I imagine a vast amount of gamers choose to spend their free time watching movies, watching shows, and ... playing games. So how much time is there left to read books? I bet most of the people who bought Joe Staten's book, and rocketed it up the New York Times Best Seller List, have not actually read the book.
Now back to my reading, I'm finishing up a highly intellectual story about a Cyborg Soldier who is currently gallantly tee-bagging a n00b while lobbing a poetically placed frag grenade at an eight year old alien Elite, homophobic racist who is singing "I don't like your Girlfriend".
Diane @ Jan 10th 2008 8:38AM
I listened to this story on the way home last night, and it's not at all a negative view the way the author and many posters are saying, it was a case where clearly the interviewer was not aware of her game history and the backstories in them, and she listened to the person she was interviewing, and brought that information into the story.
I don't expect the non-gaming public to always understand what we gamers do, I thought she presented it very well, and let the author of the book speak for himself.