Jim Preston: games as art debate is meaningless

by Scott Jon Siegel on Feb 12th 2008 9:00AM

Are games art? It's a question that comes up more and more, as the medium slowly grows out of its awkward, teenage years. EA producer Jim Preston thinks the debate is a meaningless one, as he explains in an incredibly well-thought-out feature on Gamasutra.

Preston takes his time to remind of us the state of art in general, and how art is continuously judged by its relative place in culture: a urinal can be art if Marcel Duchamp says so, and places it in an art gallery. Since it's all a matter of perspective, Preston argues that we shouldn't be bickering with Roger Ebert over whether games can be art, but instead spending our time improving the medium, and awaiting further artistic recognition from the community at large.

Makes sense to us. We'll stop waiting by the mailbox for our invite to the arty party, then.

[Image via this post]

Source

Tags: art, roger-ebert, rogerebert

Reader Comments (44)

Goddamn that dog is scary.

...Bear?

It's a brown Newfoundland puppy with fake horns on its head (at least I think those are horns, my monitor at work is horrible)... how could anyone think it's scary? Besides that guy riding his horse full speed away from it at the bottom of the picture (Is there a person on that horse, again, I can't tell what is going on there because of my blurry, old CRT monitor).

Shadow of the Colossus, anyone?

Ben, it seems that what you lack in a sense of humor is made up in an abundance of useless dog knowledge.

Hahahaha...I love that picture.

If Jackson Pollock could program video games, what kind of video games would he program (i'd reckon they would smell of fish.... i see what i did there)

Honestly, some of the best art isn't art...

Dada... my Anti-art. If you just call Videogames Dada, there is an excuse for the so called "Lack of Artistic Value", because it's Dada, it's not art... but it's art...

Everyone wins? No? Fine...

Lets ship Mr. Preston a copy of Shadow of the Colosus, a PS2, and a Strategy Guide (since he'll probably need it ;)) and see what he thinks of games as art then...

also: @WiNG

It looks like a horribly giant evil demon-spawned puppy...

Well, Marc Ecko is a fashion designer and I'm sure many people would consider that art... his "entertainment studio" (Marc Ecko Entertainment) worked with the developer Human Head to create Prey. I think he had a big role in the creation process... Not that I've ever played it, or had the desire to.

Excuse me, gotta run to the Museum of Modern Art and check if they have a video game on exhibit. They have an iPod.

Of course games are art. Ebert is just being parochial. Once the gaming generation grows up, they will consider games as stores of cultural value, i.e. art. Its actually happening already with all the 8bit music.

I once saw a gigantic mario-based video installation in a SoHo gallery and thought it would be cool to have at my house for a party.

This art argument again?

hmmm.

Games have only just started to challenge the players viewpoint of the world. And isn't that what art is?

But, as most gamers have noticed, as the consoles have become more powerful, the games produced are becoming less adventurous and more "realistic". "Realistic" translates to browns and greys and dark greens. If there is any art in games, artists really have to step out of the mould and avoid the convergence that is taking place. There really is too much sameness. Too much to be even calling for a debate.

I think it's hard for traditionalists (that is to say, a traditional artist) to see games as art, because they only focus on the visual. Visually, no, games are not art, they are not meant to be art, if someone manages to sell a screen of centepede for $10,000,000 i'd kill Mr. Atari...

The art in videogames is the same art in programming, it's the neatly timed choriography of bits and bytes dancing around... umm... something...

You get what i mean right? Games are not art in the traditional sense, they are art because of the interactive aspect...

or not... i don't know anything about art...

I understand.

Saying that games are "just data" is like saying that writing is "just ink" or "dots on a screen". What's important is the effect on the viewer/listener/interacter. Games can be massive collaborative projects, does this preclude them from being art? Hell no. How can people entertain the thought that it isn't a complex form of expression? Surely that's what art is.

Art is anything that has substantial recognized cultural value. Its a roadpost on the road of cultural exploration. A support beam of the cultural superstructure. To the extent games reflect our culture and are valued as orienting us in our culture, games are art. If not, then not.

There is a bit of a relativism in art too. Art is what people say is art. But its more than that because art is a cultural communication device, so a substantial portion of a culture's members need to agree that something is art. Sort of like that a certain word has meaning. It does cause a lot of people understand what the word means.

So in a culture where games are perceived as cultural orientation devices (such as the college boys dorm culture) games are already art. For American society, arguably yes, but is 20 years very likely yes.

For me? Not yet.

his argument is lunatic. since when does cultural diversity invalidates art? it's the opposite!!!

but really, in order to say "this is art, that isn't" objectively, you have to define what art is, and that is something very subjective, to define art...

so, the question "is games art" is stupid in itself, as it is a completely subjective matter.

I thought that was a picture from a new Shadow of the Colossus game

DS Port: Shadow of the Nintendogs

I laughed.

That would be awesome.

U know, i actually thought it was a collectible item from Shadow of Colossus, which it would be so FREAKING COOL... but oh well, no Luck Here...

Do game designers really aspire to be artists? I mean, every artist I know is a total asshole (myself included). Who's life-aspiration is to be an asshole (albeit a respected asshole)?

I have no idea, but I'm an artist aspiring to be a game designer. =) (the other way around of what you just said)

I'm diggin the avatar.

babes, you sound just like McElroy.

Wow. Did Mr. Preston and EA kill your mother when you were a child? I've never seen someone so mad at a person they've probably never met. And why all the hate for EA? What have they done/haven't done? Make some great games? Some really bad ones?

I learn something new everyday thanks to the internet. =)

I think anyone who dares define what is and isnt art is really over-stepping their bounds. There really is nothing in the world more subjective. It is completely in the eye of the beholder.

Oops, I think I did it again. See posts above.

Preston is essentially saying this:

"Shut up and get back to work".

Thanks to Joystiq for the nice write up and link to my article. I think a couple of people in this thread may be mistaken on what I'm saying. I'm neither affirming nor denying that games are art. Instead I am saying that in order to even come to an agreement on what qualifies as art we need to have a common conception of what art really means. Just as we all need to have a common conception of what english is in order to understand each others' comments in this thread.

Yet I feel that most people I meet don't really have a thoughtful conception of art, but just regard it as an extension of their emotions. While the culture as a whole holds a wide variety and often conflicting conceptions of art. I simply suggest we as gamers should not even bother with the debate, but simply work on the conditions by which games will be viewed as art by the majority of the people in the culture, regardless of what their underlying conception of art is. That is, my argument is a political one, not an aesthetic one.

Thanks for the clarification, Jim. Once again, the essay was a great read, and rightly labeled by Gamasutra as an "important" one.

I agree, Jim. Games will be recognized as art by the society as a whole when they make an impact on the cultural dynamics of our society.

Too often todays games treat trite topics in a conventional way not contributing much to development of cultural values. But as programmers and designers become more comfortable with electronic technologies, they will have more leisure to contemplate social and cultural conditions and make a contribution to advancing the debate.

For now, they spend endless hours making sure a commando is able to jump over every crate in every corridor. Art requires relative technological simplicity and leisure.

Epic article Jim. Mad love. I feel you, my unrelenting apathy towards the subject stems more from the fact that half of the world is a warzone and we are all born to die. " And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." (Friedrich Nietzsche)

Are games art? They damn well better be - if they aren't art, then they aren't protected under the same freedom of speech laws that film and literature are.

they are speech, you mean

Cool pic

Preston is right. We DO need a Shadow of the Colossus sequel.

They are working on something for the PS3 they haven't said what it is yet...

Claiming the debate about whether something is or is not 'art' is meaningless is simply claiming that the term 'art' is meaningless. It is the claim one cannot define a term and thus cannot identify its referents in reality. The individual who makes such a claim removes himself from any conversation about the term and referents because he is claiming there is no such thing. Any ongoing discussion on his part is simply a blatant (and very extended) contradiction.

All I know is that I beat HL2 EP2 last night, and I don't remember the last time any type of entertainment has moved me so much.

Art = Subjective

/debate

Art = Subjective

=

Art = nothing (ie no definition/no referents in reality)

This is simply the attempt to eliminate the concept art from rational discussion.

His argument doesn't show that the debate is meaningless, it just shows that the debate is really about the definition of "art" and not about games , per se.

Shea! Like this guy once put a refrigerator in a pedestal, and called it art. I was like "shouldn't the men, woman and factory machines that made it be the artists?

Crappy art anecdotes aside, I see the point. Art=relative = videogames-as-art=relative. I HATE relativism, though...

"His argument doesn't show that the debate is meaningless, it just shows that the debate is really about the definition of "art" and not about games , per se."

Except that even the editorial introduction says his argument shows the debate is meaningless, not to mention the fact that his position is that we shouldn't be "adopting a philosophical or aesthetic strategy" - ie we shouldn't worry about the definition of art at all. (Why? See above.)

Just focus on making the games I'll be playing. Kay thanks bye.

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Jim Preston: games as art debate is meaningless

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