GDC08: flOw, Everday Shooter creators talk indie gaming

First up to the plate is Kellee Santiago who pondered the metrics used to quantify the value of a game: is it length? She points out that reviews of gaming-culture darling Katamari Damacy criticized the game's short length (while simultaneously noting its immense replayability and budget $20 price), while games like God of War seem to bypass such criticisms while charging 2.5x as much. Sandbox games are often considered a better "value" since their replayability is virtually limitless. She says this metric "assumes we have loads of time to get rid of" and asks why we don't more consider "the quality of the time that is spent." Jonathan Mak says he considers the memory of a game when considering replayability, equating the experience to a movie or book whose experiences can last with you for years.
Mak kicked off his component of the presentation by addressing what he calls "input/output theory." In short he says, "gameplay over graphics is a total misconception" and the inverse is also true, that graphics over gameplay is a similar misconception. To illustrate his idea, he says "The gameplay in Guitar Hero sucks. The game is good because the game tells you if you press the red button at the right time, we'll output rock music." He showed off an early tech demo of Everyday Shooter, pre-graphical polish, and then flipped the graphics on, noting the same "sucked" before the graphics were added. Kellee Santiago raised some eyebrows (in a room full of independently-minded persons we presume) saying that "publishers aren't all stupid." Skinning the same mechanics can lead to innovation.

Though they didn't quite say it by name, it's a lesson that isn't by any means exclusive to independent designers; we're reminded of last year's litany of incredible first-person shooters. Are BioShock, Call of Duty IV, Halo 3, Portal just simple first-person shooters utilizing the same basic input mechanic and, therefore, derivative and without value?
Is this a proponent of aesthetics over design? After saying that he didn't care much for Call of Duty 3, Mak said "What if Call of Duty 3 had Rez graphics, I would be totally all over it." He cited Japanese rhythm title Rhythm Tengoku, saying that despite enormously simple gameplay (hit the A button in rhythm) "the game is awesome because it always gives you a different output."

The final speaker's presentation was far less simple to relay (or understand, to be honest). Pekko Koskinen presented an idea to create "reality games" that aren't virtual environments but instead are "lenses" placed between a player and their real environment. His theories see the role of game design in designing player's behavior, calling it "an art of making fictional behavior." Unfortunately, his presentation stopped at the conceptual phase, never giving us any real-world examples to calcify his ideas (though we've heard the Finnish government is financing his project).
All in all, a curious panel which bandied about from one issue to the next, culminating in a project that we're struggling with identifying as a "game" despite its interactive elements.











Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
umm....hello??? @ Feb 18th 2008 4:19PM
they'd be better off comparing Atari2600 games for their input/output question. the Atari2600 sure didn't have graphics going for it---95% of it was the gameplay.
umm....hello??? @ Feb 18th 2008 4:24PM
whoops....misinterpreted that part of the article. nevermind.
flYY @ Feb 18th 2008 4:34PM
"His theories see the role of game design in designing player's behavior, calling it 'an art of making fictional behavior.'"
He's saying games should be murder simulation trainers
BigD145 @ Feb 18th 2008 4:38PM
Ok people. It's all very simple.
"You are all sheeple. You buy what you are told to buy."
I think that covers everything. These 'creators' obviously never looked at a basic business model.
aMac @ Feb 18th 2008 6:58PM
-50 points for using the word "Sheeple", even in a non-serious manor
aMac @ Feb 18th 2008 7:00PM
I of course mean 'manner' and not 'manor'.
Boy is egg on MY face.
BigD145 @ Feb 18th 2008 8:53PM
Can I get my points back for running one over tomorrow?
Fernando Rocker (Ludwig Defense Force) @ Feb 18th 2008 4:40PM
I like indie games... there are a lot of creatives designers and indie developers...
They just need a chance... just look how good games are in Xbox Live, PSN... and soon WiiWare, looks amazing... World of Goo, Eternity's Child...
Matt B @ Feb 18th 2008 6:11PM
Agreed.
BPM IIDX 8th style @ Feb 19th 2008 12:13AM
Matt B? Agreeing with Fernando?
Is the world ending? Or is this just the power of the LDF?
Brello @ Feb 18th 2008 4:46PM
Make it fun and I'll buy it. I don't care to break it down into what works, just make it fun.
Trev @ Feb 18th 2008 4:46PM
Call of Duty with Rez graphics. Jonathan Mak, you are my new hero.
CB @ Feb 18th 2008 4:49PM
WTF!
Trevor @ Feb 18th 2008 4:54PM
Since when was God of War 2 $60?
Trevor @ Feb 18th 2008 4:55PM
Oh shit, that image is of God of War *one*!
Did they forget about the days of $50 games?
PSN: KillaKornbread @ Feb 19th 2008 5:04AM
yea i was just scanning to see if anybody else had noticed this. that was the first thing i saw though. and that is God of War 1 which didnt even have a collectors edition (even though im not sure if GoW2 did either lol). i guess the point is proven either way but it is kind of annoying to me lol.
Groundskeeper Willie @ Feb 18th 2008 4:57PM
You should just admit that you're out of your depth at a developer's conference. Wait for E3, at least they have booth babes there.
BPM IIDX 8th style @ Feb 19th 2008 12:16AM
Hi, welcome to 2006 when they announced E³ would be downsized and remove the booth babes.
PSN: KillaKornbread @ Feb 19th 2008 5:06AM
pwned.
Nigeria @ Feb 18th 2008 4:57PM
GTAs and their sandbox offspring offer little replay value, but I seem to be the only one that holds this view.
These type of games deliver the impression that you're in control of your destiny with an endless amount of possible outcomes, but in reality they're as linear as most games.
Driving around virtual cities picking up hookers does not equal replayablity: it's just boring. You can do that in real life.
ALH @ Feb 18th 2008 5:04PM
the beauty of replayability in GTA comes from messing with the system, not doing it properly. once you put in a code to get infinite weapons, health and a couple of tanks its fun to set up a death trap then explode the many cars which fall into your dead end traffic jam, or grabbing a plane long before you're technically allowed to in GTASA just to see how long you can avoid the jets of the no-fly zone.
I think i had more fun getting into the other citys illegally by swimming across the rivers then making a dash for the nearest freeway to see how long i could evade the cops than i ever did doing missions and picking up hookers
oh man, now i wish i hadnt traded it in :(
Mr Khan @ Feb 18th 2008 5:05PM
Speak the truth
One standard for judging a game's value is always going to favor Fire Emblem over Calling All Cars, when both are excellent in their own right
Context needs to be established
FidliousWong @ Feb 18th 2008 5:42PM
Calling All Cars is nothing more than Hot Potato mixed with Tag. But in the end, it's damn fun with four people in a room.
ALH @ Feb 18th 2008 5:11PM
'After saying that he didn't care much for Call of Duty 3, Mak said "What if Call of Duty 3 had Rez graphics, I would be totally all over it."'
I'm guilty of this. Show me a game striving for realism and i'll get bored pretty fast, but the minute you slap a cel shader on there or make it super minimalist im on it like a fly to shit, even if the gameplay is nothing new.
The novelty doesnt always last though, even if the presentation is something special.Theres still a lot to be said for genuinely new/exciting gameplay concepts
TX2Step @ Feb 18th 2008 5:55PM
You think these indie developers are angry that they do not get enough attention. What part of "indie" in indie developer do you not understand?
hvnlysoldr @ Feb 18th 2008 7:19PM
I see their argument but respond that input of motion gameplay gives me more output reward. Of course it all comes down to design, polish, and execution. Which applies to all aspects of games.
ThornedVenom (Ludwig Defense Force) @ Feb 18th 2008 8:40PM
I actually fully agree with the theory. It's just that I've always considered the term "gameplay" as encompassing the input/output aspect.
They have my respect.
t_m @ Feb 19th 2008 10:01AM
Sandbox games are often considered a better "value" since their replayability is virtually limitless. She says this metric "assumes we have loads of time to get rid of" and asks why we don't more consider "the quality of the time that is spent."
She is my new hero, whoever she is.
Reviews ALWAYS mention replayability. I've been playing games for, what, 20 years now, and I permanently have a huge pile of games I haven't played, another long list i haven't finished, and an even longer list that I want to buy.
I can probably name the number of game that I've replayed on one hand. There are many games I've absolutely adored, but I can think of very few instances where i'd want to play them again, even if they gave different paths. A few like KotoR I've loaded up the latest save game possible and replayed the last bit.. but it was almost always a cae of rushing through as fast as possible just to get to the alternate ending.
Of course, if they made games shorter then there might be more of an argument for re playability. if system shock 2 was 5 hours long then I might have played through it in all 3 roles, but it'd probably still be too groundhog day for many people's liking.
PS/ just discovered Blast Miner on Gametap.. puzzle mode is great fun. And I still boot up tower of goo from time to time.
CM @ Feb 19th 2008 3:51PM
Not liking the God of War dig. There was no need for that on her part. It is not even that short of a game. Plenty of games are shorter and offer less polish. Quality over quantity.