GDC08: XNAnswers at the bloggers breakfast
by Justin McElroy 
{ Feb 21st 2008 at 12:30PM }
Yesterday's announcement of XNA Community Games was exciting, but it wasn't exactly heavy on answers. Today we sat with a breakfast table full of Microsoft bigwigs and pummeled them until they gave us the information we crave, no matter how many pleas for mercy they offered up. ... Well, we pummeled them with questions. ... And what they offered up was delicious bacon, not pleas for mercy. Check out what we learned after the jump.
- Only members of XNA Creators Club will be able to upload games to the service. They'll also make up the review squad for games that will vet them for IP infringement, adult content, etc.
- Games will not be rated by any body like the ESRB, but those groups have been asked for their opinion on Microsoft's rating system.
- Microsoft's not talking about how the system will be monetized (or even if it will) while they're in this beta phase.
- Games will be on the Marketplace blade, but you'll also be able to search a web page for games that you'd like to play. Creators will be able to post comments about their games as well as downloadable videos.
- At the moment, the file size limit of games is 150 MB, but Microsoft is open to increasing that if need be.
- Both silver and gold members of Xbox Live will be able download XNA games.
- Microsoft isn't particularly worried about XNA cannibalizing XBLA sales. As Xbox Live VP John Schappert said, "I think at the end of the day, empowering consumers to create their own games is better overall. I think it will be a nice compliment.
- At the moment, you won't be able to see what your friends are playing, but that's something Microsoft would like to fix.
- There won't be any Achievements on XNA.
- Creators will be able to choose which regions they want their work in.
- Creators will retain the rights to their work.
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
squeedom @ Feb 21st 2008 12:35PM
according to 1up yours podcast, You have to pay $100 dollars a year to be in the creators club, and after this ccurrent 17 day trial period is over, only creator club memebers can play games in the xna community thing. Its at the very beginning of their latest podcast.
Justin McElroy @ Feb 21st 2008 12:39PM
No, that's not true, as far as I can tell. I think it's reversed, with CC members getting to play the games first.
squeedom @ Feb 21st 2008 12:46PM
Im just repeating what they said. And the guy who said sounded very confident that he was mislead at the press conference only to be blind sided later.
http://www.1up.com/do/minisite?cId=3149993
Jcarpio @ Feb 21st 2008 1:44PM
really? shane seemed speculative. It looks like joystiq found the real answer at the blogger breakfast.
E.J. @ Feb 21st 2008 2:31PM
Shane Bettenhausen should be the last person you ask or listen to about MS stuff.
Edog Lost @ Feb 21st 2008 12:35PM
I like what you did in the title there with the XNA Answer thing, Clever. That is why they pay Justin the big bucks.
gRasole @ Feb 21st 2008 3:01PM
If you do a little searching you can find that students can get a free year of XNA Game Studio 2.0. https://downloads.channel8.msdn.com/Default.aspx
kevinski @ Feb 21st 2008 7:22PM
Actually, anyone can get it for free...permanently. There's an express version of Visual C# that'll allow you to make games.
http://creators.xna.com/
Kalroy @ Feb 21st 2008 8:45PM
XNA Game Studio Express 2.0 is free. It's an add on to the Visual Studio C# Express. Frankly that's all you'll ever need at our level.
Kalroy
Yubastard @ Feb 22nd 2008 12:33AM
yes, but, for us indie devs, Xbox 360 is where the fun's at (constant next-gen power, configuration doesn't change), and that, unfortunately, is not free.
I'll be sure to check that free student thing, though.
Fernando Rocker @ Feb 21st 2008 12:40PM
I donwloaded Dishwasher and there was a grayed out option that says Achievements... I guess it will be removed.
Cyro @ Feb 21st 2008 12:49PM
How was it ? The game I mean ?
Worth downloading?
Fernando Rocker @ Feb 21st 2008 12:51PM
Yeah... nice style... bloody... a little repetitive, but it's very good. Better than a lot of Live Arcade games.
Crono (NDF - Knight of the Old School) @ Feb 21st 2008 12:59PM
I freaking loved jelly car. The best part is that all the sound effects are a guy speaking into a microphone. Hilarious.
DSK UK @ Feb 21st 2008 1:53PM
The reason that has acheivements is because that game is coming to XBLA as it was the winner of that competition. The game was to demonstrate what XNA could bring to the community games.
Yenian @ Feb 21st 2008 11:25PM
Dishwasher was selected as a winner in last years DreamBuildPlay competition. As such, it's actually being produced for XBLA. (The prize was an XBLA contract for the XNA produced games.) It's not going to release under the XNA umbrella, but under the official XBLA one, and as such, will have achievements, leaderboards, etc.
Since it was an XNA title, I'm guessing they're using it as a preview of the Community service.
John McPoop @ Feb 21st 2008 3:56PM
@NatoDuke
Thanks for the information. Being that I do alot of animation and compositing I use Macintosh exclusively for all of that (shake & maya among others). Just to clarify I wasn't pitting LBP against this XNA suite but rather combating the rhetoric and devaluing of LBP by the regular X-Bots fernando & marty.
They are compltely different. One is a game with an advanced editor and one is a software suite to create games. Just thought I would clarify. But I wouldn't sleep on LBP (or Spore for that matter) in terms of user created content although as you said Nato it is relegated within the games universe.
John McPoop @ Feb 21st 2008 4:01PM
@Nato Duke
That response was meant for the psot a little further down...My apologies
truBlue @ Feb 21st 2008 12:45PM
Nice concept but not all gamers are creators. And most creators are not programmers. Most people are at first caught up in this 'new' service from M$ as accessible or a community social thing when in reality very few have the tech skills to do more than simply download anothers work. LBP anyone?
Marty @ Feb 21st 2008 12:59PM
Comparing XNA to Little Big Planet is like comparing Valve's Source Dev Kit to Garry's Mod.
You have no idea what you're talking about. At all.
Good day.
Fernando Rocker @ Feb 21st 2008 1:02PM
LBP is just a "dress your avatar, move object here to here thingy". You are not creating anything. You are just "rearranging".
It's just and editor.
kinshadow @ Feb 21st 2008 1:05PM
The tech and tools aren't some black voodoo unless your mentally challenged. Coding isn't hard unless your allergic to learning. MS even publishes free-to-use game templates that you can just modify. Two or three enthusiasts with mixed tallents would have no problem making something really awesome in their free time.
LBP is cool but this is a totally differnt caliber.
NATO_Duke @ Feb 21st 2008 2:32PM
Stretching to find a way to criticize "M$" aren't you. It’s very transparent.
E.J. @ Feb 21st 2008 2:39PM
In addition to MS giving you templates, there are online tutorials to help out newcomers to XNA. Thanks, early adopters!
John McPoop @ Feb 21st 2008 3:04PM
@Marty
@Fernando Rocker
What a suprise the two biggest PS3 trolls and X-Bots are already starting a smear campaign against LBP. I suggest you watch the Tech-Demos of LBP again. While you don't actually create specific materials (IE textures and models etc) you do have a level of customization never seen in an in game editor. In fact you can create content its just from pre existing content (you can make a tree from any number of leave textures, tree textures and even customize colors). While thid XNA announcement is certainly intresting the onus is on the user to create everything. With Little Big Planet any player can create anything within the world. There are also details of LBP yet to be released so who knows really what type of editing tools will be available at launch and overtime on the PSN. Fact of the matter is LBP will offer better user creation content because its done easier in game with an actual assets interface as opposed to making everything from scratch with texture limitations etc. Both ideas are amazing to me as well as Spore which ultimately give users an unprecedented amount of creative control. I am glad Microsoft finally got the hint.
How much does the software suite cost for the XNA games? I am very familiar with maya, shake, photoshop and other various Animation and digital effects suites as I have a degree in computer animation.
NATO_Duke @ Feb 21st 2008 3:27PM
I fail to see how XNA is pitted against LBP. One allows users to make entire new games while the other allows the game to be modified by the user with new levels. Both are great ideas, but not nearly the same world.
Anyway, to answer that question:
How much does XNA Game Studio Express cost? Is there a difference between Windows and Xbox 360 development?
A: Visual C# Express, the XNA Game Studio Express tools and runtime environment for Windows are all FREE. To develop, debug and/or play games on the Xbox 360, however, you must have an XNA Creators Club subscription purchased directly from the Xbox Live Marketplace. Two subscription options are available: $99 per year or $49 per four months.
http://creators.xna.com/
Marty @ Feb 21st 2008 4:00PM
@John McPoop - Calling me an X-Bot is offensive. I like my 360, but I ain't no blind supporter.
The fact of the matter is, XNA is a set of development tools, for programming. Comparing that to a silly ragdoll physics / user content oriented game is asinine. One is a game, the other is a set of development tools. If you can't understand that, you have no business posting here, fanboy or not.
John McPoop @ Feb 21st 2008 4:14PM
@Marty
If you would actually read my original post you would see the distinction I made. While LBP is a GAME and not a software suite it does allow a level of customization unseen in recent console releases. Surely even you can understand this... Marty I really think you honestly belive you are not a blind follower and you just think these are your opinions. But given the post I have seen from you in the past bashing the PS3 at every turn while praising the 360 its pretty clear to me your a true X-bot. I don't mean that in an insulting way because I hate PS3-ites just as much as X-bots. I don't understand why everyone has to turn this into a war..
Just to clarify things here is a bit from my response to Nato Duke in which I accidently posted a bit higher on the page...
"Just to clarify I wasn't pitting LBP against this XNA suite but rather combating the rhetoric and devaluing of LBP by the regular X-Bots fernando & marty.
They are compltely different. One is a game with an advanced editor and one is a software suite to create games. Just thought I would clarify. But I wouldn't sleep on LBP (or Spore for that matter) in terms of user created content although as you said Nato it is relegated within the games universe."
Marty @ Feb 21st 2008 4:24PM
I disagree - I am critical of MS just like I am of Sony and Nintendo. But that is not the point at hand.
You simply cannot compare a content creation system inside of a game to a game development platform. It makes no sense - even if you acknowledge the distinction between the two, it still does not follow any logical thinking to say that the content creation inside a game will be more flexible than a suite of tools that can create games themselves.
You can make models inside Spore and LBP that looks like all sorts of things. But you can't actually create games themselves. It should only make sense that XNA requires more expertise - it's actual programming, and not just making a neat-o model inside another game.
The bottom line is that you could make games exactly like Spore and LBP with XNA. You could not make XNA with Spore or LBP. End of discussion.
finnith @ Feb 21st 2008 4:31PM
@Poop
The possibilities in LBP is not being argued here. I'm sure LBP will be a great game that I wish I could play but the truth is that XNA is a set of developer tools.
NATO_Duke @ Feb 21st 2008 4:35PM
You know that anytime you say XBot or M$ people just have a hard time taking the post seriously. So I wouldn't be shocked that folks get irritable when it happens. It just makes people think they are dealing with another KrazyKen whether they are or not.
BTW Glad the info I posted earlier helped out.
John McPoop @ Feb 21st 2008 5:18PM
@Marty
@Nato Duke
@Finnith
I admit I may have been over zealous in defending a game (LBP in this case) that did not need to be defended. I feel as if I clearly made the distinction between the two in my comparison and whether you agree with my interpretation or not (Marty) I am still going to voice my opinion especially when I feel an unreleased game is being unfairly criticized.
However I do admit in this case it was probably not necessary to defend LBP because it is beyond the scope of the conversation. But it does not mean my opinion is without merit (as some would say) when saying LBP and Spore are games that will far exceed anything on a console in terms of user generated content.
To say that you could create LBP in XNA is completely Assanine. Its possible to make a "level" similar to LBP but part of the game is the advanced editor and making tool kits for use in game is more than likely not possible with the limitations on XNA games. It's really a juvenile statement used for nothing more than to smear a game on a competing console.
The krux of the matter is games like LBP and Spore will push the boundaries of what we expect a game to be especially as far as full customization. I understand when comparing it to XNA there is really no comparison because ( AS I SAID!!!) its a tool suite used to create smaller XBLA like games.
As far as the X-Bot or M$ refrence all I can really say is I call it like I see it. When the majority of a persons comments are always biased against another console (PS3's are only bought for Blu-ray ETC or some other untrue generalization) how else are they to be perceived except as a zealot to their console of choice. I could care less if people do not take it seriously because this jargon is often used by equally appauling PS3-ites (IE Krazy Ken Kutargari). The fact of the matter is if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck....well you get it...
Apologies and Cheers....
Evan @ Feb 21st 2008 7:15PM
@John McPoop
"To say that you could create LBP in XNA is completely Assanine. Its possible to make a "level" similar to LBP but part of the game is the advanced editor and making tool kits for use in game is more than likely not possible with the limitations on XNA games."
As a professional programmer, let me say that you COULD write LBP on XNA. You can write anything in XNA's C#... including your own physics and A.I. FROM SCRATCH, so you are not limited by what libraries MS provides. And, GarageGames's "Torque X Builder" demonstrates that not only is it possible to write a drag-and-drop level editor like LBP's editor, IT'S ALREADY BEEN DONE!
John McPoop @ Feb 21st 2008 9:28PM
@Evan
So its possible in theory is what your saying. Thats quite interesting. How about in actual practice due to size limitations by Microsoft regarding XBL games. If you say you are a programmer I will take you word for it an apologize for my seemingly ignorant comments to Marty on the subject. It seems rather lofty that you can have an entire library of assets and tools for in game editing never before seen on consoles over XBL. As I said is this in "theory" or in actual "practice". Especially considering the teams that work on these games (spore & LBP) and the time it takes to perfect them. I could be wrong but the purpose of this XNA over XBL community arcade seems to be for smaller projects (isnt the size limit something like 150 MB?).
Marty @ Feb 21st 2008 10:31PM
Sure, there are size limitations on Live Arcade games - but you can use XNA to build games for 360, both regular and Arcade, as well as PC games.
XNA is basically a suite of tools Microsoft released for C# programmers to more easily create games for PC and 360. This is the core programming behind a game, not simply an in-game toolset (like LBP or Spore). That is why I have said you were wrong to compare the two from the beginning, and I stand by that comment.
Alternatively, I would have said the same thing if you had compared LBP to Sony's Phyre Engine... the two are completely different things, on completely different levels.
deaftly @ Feb 21st 2008 12:46PM
No ESRB is interesting and potentially awesome. This whole XNA thing is sounding better and better.
Fernando Rocker @ Feb 21st 2008 12:48PM
Why did you quit in the middle of the game last night?
We lose againts Krang =(
nutman @ Feb 21st 2008 12:53PM
Actually its not potentially awesome. It's probably worse really. It sounds like Microsoft will not allow any adult content at all on the XNA community games thing. If the ESRB was in charge of rating them then its possible that you would see some M rated games or whatever.
deaftly @ Feb 21st 2008 12:57PM
Sorry Fernando, I couldn't find my headset heh, it was my bedtime :(. East Coast here. I'll be on tonight losing again to the first boss in Lost Odyssey so gimme an invite. (btw how the fuck do you beat that god damn giant bird in the mountains!)
Cyro @ Feb 21st 2008 1:53PM
@deaftly:
I want your personal opinion on how good Lost Odyssey is.
I am not a true fan of RPG's, but I am starting to like them more and more. I have never tried a JRPG. I loved Mass Effect, KOTOR, and Fable. Haven't really played anything RPG besides that. Do you think I would like Lost Odyssey or do you think its to Japanese or RPG in nature for me? Is it only for Hardcore RPG Fans ?
I can't decide on buying it.... :/
neobergeron @ Feb 21st 2008 2:00PM
So what if there are no M games? XBLA doesn't have M games now, does it? Not every avenue of gaming has to have blood and gore and sex and drugs. People had plenty of fun in the days of Pac Man and Burger Time without explicit subject matter. On top of that, if M games were allowed, then that add yet another layer of parental tools that would be necessary. Why add another needless concern to gaming?
ExMcloud @ Feb 21st 2008 2:02PM
This might have been the best thing MS ever did for the live service...Being able to create your own games and have a humongous crowd of hard core gamers that will play anything that is free (i.e. Yaris) is nothing but awesome! Props to MS....And Nutman Dishwasher is pretty damn violent and Bloody so there will probably be plenty of M-rated titles popping up
deaftly @ Feb 21st 2008 2:18PM
@Cyro
Its flat out an old school turn based RPG. I enjoyed them alot back in the day so I caved in and gave Lost Odyssey a shot. Its alot like the 3D Final Fantasy games (10 most of all) so if you liked those, you can't go wrong with LO. Ign's review is pretty good but the thing about the long load times is just wrong. Sorry I didn't really go into detail.
NATO_Duke @ Feb 21st 2008 2:21PM
deaftly - that boss is a bitch for a first boss eh? He killed me before I figured it out. First grind a bit to get level 14 or so before doing it. Just go back to the city and make sure to find the helmet for the soldier in the elevator - then you get the antidote broach that aids in the attacks which poinon you. Also, buy some flare bombs at the store - get around ten and use those on him. Flame does the best damage and is a must!
You can then keep the one guy in the back doing healing and flare magic.
NATO_Duke @ Feb 21st 2008 2:23PM
Cyro - I like the game, though it has a lot of cinema to it. It feels a lot like the FF series. Though I am only a few boses into it (the second one is a real pain!) I would say to buy it and have patience as you get used to the genre.
deaftly @ Feb 21st 2008 2:46PM
Awesome, thanks a ton Nato
NATO_Duke @ Feb 21st 2008 2:54PM
np - shoot me a message on live (NATO Duke) if there’s a problem. The next boss will really make you mad - just keep taking out the minions around him and hit him with ground magic a lot.
Cyro @ Feb 21st 2008 3:26PM
@deaftly and Nato Duke:
Thanks..
Will think about it.
Tom @ Feb 21st 2008 12:51PM
When is Visual Studio 2008 Support for XNA Studio going to be fixed?
Right now it only works with 2005. What about those of us with MSDN subscriptions who are early adopters of VS 2008? I don't want to have to run VS 2005 as well on my development machine!
DWells55 @ Feb 21st 2008 12:55PM
Agreed. I have Visual Studio 2008, but I have to have Visual C# Express 2005 as well for the XNA.