Overheard@GDC: Ken Levine on Steamworks
Throughout his discussion of BioShock's story on Wednesday, Ken Levine referenced the folks at Valve and the top notch work they had done on games like Half-Life 2. Before the talk started we overheard him talking about the Steamworks announcement, and when we joined a large discussion of attendees after the event ended we asked the man himself what he thought.What do you think of the Steamworks announcement?
"I think the great thing about Valve is they understand you don't have to make every penny off of everybody every second to make the big dollar. Google has a similar approach. You don't feel like you're being constantly fleeced - Valve has a very sophisticated model, they're very smart guys, and I think it's really exciting. It's great for developers. It's great for Valve, it's great for everybody else, and it's great for people making games.
How much do you think Steam helped BioShock?
"I think one of the great things about Valve is that they are developers. I've worked with some big companies, and as developers they're professional, they're on the ball, I can't think of a single mistake that they made. They're taking it very seriously."
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Abscissa @ Feb 22nd 2008 11:44AM
*Ahem* Steam sucks.
Chase @ Feb 22nd 2008 11:47AM
omg u r teh rebbel
LAWL -_-'
I dare you to qualify your statement. Please, we're all ears. Oh, what's that? Silence? As to be expected.
ThornedVenom (Ludwig Defense Force) @ Feb 22nd 2008 1:00PM
Plz care to develop.
KeenCommander @ Feb 22nd 2008 1:04PM
It's games, only you actually have to pay for them, and it's hard to hack - therefore it sucks. Not from a developer perspective, certainly, but definitely from a pirate/consumer perspective. Like the fact that I can't actually use a used copy of Half-Life 2 because of Steam, even though selling a used game is perfectly legal.
Abscissa @ Feb 22nd 2008 1:11PM
Heheh, I R da rebl, I guess.
"I dare you to qualify your statement."
Sure thing:
1. It destroys the secondary market. Tired of the game and want to sell it? Tough shit.
2. What happens if Valve gets new management/bought out/goes under/etc. and whoever is in charge decides to drop support? SOL again. Oh what? Something like that could never happen? Enjoy your naivety.
3. What happens when Valve decides they no longer feel like supporting your hardware/OS? The game you've already been playing perfectly fine suddenly stops working. SOL mark 3. In fact, this one has already happened.
4. Forced auto-updates "cannot be rolled back by the user, which prevents users with unusual or unrecognized issues reverting their software to its previous, functional state". Find yourself in that position, and you're
SOL.
5. Valve is able to enforce region lockouts whenever they feel like it, thus destroying one of PC gaming's former advantages. This has also already happened.
6. It's one of those programs that shits on basic UI design standards by making the "Close" button minimize instead of actually %^$&^ closing.
7. It continues to shit on basic UI design standards by being one of those programs that insists on using some pointless retarded custom skin instead of the standard Win32 GUI.
8. Want to install a game while Valve's server's are down? SOL.
9. Want to play a game while Valve's servers are down? Unless you just happened to have already set it up for offline play, you're SOL.
10. Games cost the same on Steam as in retail despite the fact that you're not getting an actual disc, and have all the above "hostage to Valve's whim" limitations.
11. As an illustration to some of the above points, if the NES had behaved like Steam, then every NES system and cart in existence would be 100% dead, right now, today, even though you had legitimately bought and paid for them and they had been working perfectly fine.
Oh, what's that? Didn't think I'd be able to back that statement up?
Magetto @ Feb 22nd 2008 1:16PM
Why are you people voting him down? Steam does suck as he pointed out.
hoohoo @ Feb 22nd 2008 1:55PM
1. secondary market costs developers more money than pirating. if you are too cheap to pay for the game at full price, wait a bit and buy it on sale. if you are too lazy to do that, buy a console and rent.
2. what happens when microsoft goes belly up? what will happen to all of the stuff bought on live? or any other service? i have more faith that valve would do the right thing than anyone else.
3. what valve game has stopped supporting hardware or os? oh whats the matter? you cant play cs on win 98 anymore? guess what? m$ doesnt support it anymore either. but you can still play it.
4. updates are not forced. you have the choice to update or not. true once updated you cant roll back, but if you are having a problem with a new update, dont worry, there will be another. valve support is great for fixing issues like this, plus there are plenty of people out there to help you figure it out.
5. whats wrong with region lockouts? there are plenty of reasons why this is necessary. support, local laws, higher bandwidth bills, language.
6. the only time i have ever seen this issue is when trying to close the steam window after launching a game. minor bug at best. solution? leave the window open until after you are done playing.
7. thats has to be the lamest reason for hating on steam i've ever heard.
8. how often are the steam servers ever down? the service has been around for about 4 1/2 years, and i doubt the service has been down a total of 24 hours in that whole time. live was recently down for a ton of people for more than month, hmm yeah steam sux.
9. read #8.
10. so buy it retail. or better yet, dont buy it at all, then we wont have to listen to your pointless hypothetical rants on why steam sux.
11. yawn.
try again champ.
A Pissed-off English Gamer @ Feb 22nd 2008 1:59PM
Abcissa, at first your arguments were valid, but the more you went on the more it became clear that you were just nit-picking. You don't like the skin, you don't like that it only minimizes when you tell it to close? Oh noes, it's the end of the world. As for Steam "going under" one could make the same argument for the bank you keep all your money in or, indeed, for the entire video game industry; they're all about as likely.
Magetto @ Feb 22nd 2008 2:29PM
hoohoo "10. so buy it retail. or better yet, dont buy it at all, then we wont have to listen to your pointless hypothetical rants on why steam sux."
Steam required games such as Half-life 2, regardless if it's a retail version or not, requires you to use steam. I don't know about you but I don't like my legally bought retail copies of games to be held hostage to DRM, period. This goes for every type of DRM, not just steam.
Abscissa @ Feb 22nd 2008 3:07PM
@"A Pissed-off English Gamer":
"You don't like the skin, you don't like that it only minimizes when you tell it to close? Oh noes, it's the end of the world."
I never said that those alone were deal-breakers (let alone the end of the world), so don't put words in my mouth. I had complaints about Steam, and I listed my complaints about Steam. If I some of my points weren't earth-shattering enough for you: "Oh noes, it's the end of the world."
"As for Steam "going under" one could make the same argument for the bank you keep all your money in or, indeed, for the entire video game industry; they're all about as likely."
Bank: I don't know about other countries, but here in the states, as a result of the 1930's fiasco, bank accounts are now FDIC insured up to $100,000. Beyond that, there are other ways handle any further funds.
The entire industry: One game company IS far more likely to go under than the entire industry. And it's not as if the game industry hasn't had more than its share of surprise buyouts, falls-from-grace (so to speak), and other such things. This IS a highly volatile industry.
@hoohoo:
1. Secondary markets are legal, and if the developers don't like it, then tough shit. You know what costs developers more money than piracy and used sales combined? People who chose not to play their games in the first place. So how about developers fix that by finding a way to force people to buy their games? Your counterpoint just doesn't add up.
2. Why do you think I don't buy stuff on Live? (Ok, aside from not owning a 360, *yet*. So I guess change "don't" to "won't".)
3. You're missing the point. If I buy game 'A' and play it on platform 'B', and later, platform 'B' gets replaced, I should still be able to continue playing game 'A' on platform 'B' *should I so choose to*.
It's absolutely no different than if today, Capcom flipped a switch that prevented all of their NES carts from working on actual NESes, and then announced "If you want to continue playing your Capcom NES games, go out and buy a Wii". Doesn't matter if the Wii is newer/better (not saying it is or isn't), point is, I shouldn't have to.
4. Ok so they're not forced. And alright, suppose Valve is very good about patches. It's still a step backwards simply because you're at their mercy, even if they really are very good about it. You're still at their whim. (And even if they did allow downgrades, they could just decide to change their mind whenever the f* they felt like it.) But, for example, if I want to downgrade my copy of Doom from v1.666 to v1.2, for any reason at all, or even for no reason, I can do so. I can do whatever the fuck I please with regards to versioning. I don't have to trust anyone for shit. That alone makes it an improvement no matter how trustworthy an organization is.
5. "Whats wrong with region lockouts?" You've got to be kidding me! What are you, some proud corporate whipping boy? Figure it out, I'll leave it as an exercise.
6 & 7. I'll grant that they're relatively minor issues, but stupid design IS stupid design, period. And FWIW, I just re-installed the Steam client, and it's minimizing *anytime* I hit the close button.
8 & 9. Ok, so they're not down often. You're still missing the point. I can play/install a disc-distributed game whenever the fuck I want. Even the best servers can't brag 100% uptime. It might not be an earth-shattering improvement, but it IS still better.
10. So buy retail? I do. And if you don't want to read my rants, then don't. Simple.
11. "Yawn" isn't much of a counterpoint.
- champ (Apparently)
MagusDF @ Feb 22nd 2008 3:32PM
Tho I can see some of your points. Youre also missing a few key benifits.
1)Newly released steam tools for developers.
2)Convenicence.
-Not having to go to the store to buy something.
-Discs & boxes waste space.
-Having the updates avaliable to you in one location instead of having to track down a new patch. Not all developers are nice enough to have the game inform you or have an easy download option.
3)ingame messenger and friendslists + community ect...
I think the price vs retail is a mute point, if you follow the overall argument its the same with PSN, Live, and most any other digital distribution model. Those places are in a sense being forced to sell at same as retail.
Discs ca be region locked, lost, and they take up storage room.
hoohoo @ Feb 22nd 2008 4:53PM
@Abscissa
1. my point doesnt add up? tough shit to devs who created the game? there is no way to force people to buy games, but there sure is ways to limit the amount of piracy and cheapskate buyers/sellers.
2. moot
3. lets have an example plz.
4. yet another lame reason. sorry but 99.9% of gamers want the most updated version of a game.
5. let me guess, you are one of those cheapskates that thought they could rip off valve and buy the orange box from thailand and then got the games booted from steam. welcome to the global economy where prices are set for regions for a reason. not for you to get a bargain because you are too cheap.
6&7. stupid design? why because you are using a 3rd party skinning app that steam doesnt support, and is causing bugs? boohoo, live with it or better yet dont use it at all.
8&9. no i'm not missing the point. you are. you are so blinded that games are tied to valve's whims that you are missing the fact they work now and will for the forseeable future.
10. good, then if you dont use steam dont knock it, because you obviously dont know wtf you are talking about.
11. either was your point in the first place. it once again is based on your fears of other people's whims. you either need to grow up and realise that your entire life is based on others whims, or if you are grown up, you need to get your shit together and start learning how the world works.
Abscissa @ Feb 23rd 2008 2:20AM
1. I can see my analogy went completely over your head.
2. You're no longer coherent on this one.
3. I just gave you an example. You didn't bother to read it.
4. I really don't care if you think this reason is lame.
5. Assumption train ahoy! No, I wasn't one of those people affected by that as I never even got the Orange Box.
6&7. Surprise, surprise, but I find those third party skinning apps to be pointless. Even if they actually did work well (which they don't) there's still very little point in actually using them. And if you must know, I find the whole "personalization" trend with all the faceplates and skins and whatnot to be an overrated fad (at least I hope it ends up being a fad..."Sagging" still hasn't died out yet, for some unholy reason). So bottom line, no, I don't use them. And for what it's worth, you might sound more intelligent if you didn't make so many assumptions.
8&9. Typical short-sighted attitude. I know that when you're young, it may seem like decisions and actions don't have consequences, or that nothing will ever change. But when you grow up, you'll realize that short-sightedness is only self-defeating. Eventually, you'll have to learn that or the world will leave you on the curb.
10. I should clarify: I have tried steam. I do use steam for demos. I do not and will not use it for purchases.
11.
"either was your point in the first place"
Non-coherent. Did you mean "neither"? (I guess that may have been a typo)
"it once again is based on your fears of other people's whims."
To call it a fear is a sign of naivety. It's just plain pragmatism.
"your entire life is based on others whims"
Of *COURSE* it is. That's exactly why I do what I can to minimize it. You'd be smart to do the same.
So far, MagusDF has had by far the most intelligent rebuttal.
Pointz @ Feb 22nd 2008 11:52AM
I think he knows too, but seeing as it's GDC, Valve might be close by
(Looks left and right)
(- ) (- ) \ / ( -) ( -)
ThornedVenom (Ludwig Defense Force) @ Feb 22nd 2008 1:01PM
I know I had my coffee this morning, but those look like horrible titties.
Blazur @ Feb 22nd 2008 11:56AM
Whatever bias you may have towards Steam, you have to admit that Valve is a great company and represent the pinnacle of sophistication in the industry. Between them and Blizzard it doesn't get much better.
Steam is a pretty solid architecture. While I prefer having an actual box of my game, I can see the value of digital distribution. My only grip against it, which is mainly directed towards Valve and HL2, is how once you register a cd key with Steam you're unable to resell that game without giving up the Steam account and associate email address. That is completely bogus to me. I have a duplicate copy of HL2 on my desk as a result of Orange Box which I'm unable to recoup any costs from.
Abscissa @ Feb 22nd 2008 1:31PM
"you have to admit that Valve is a great company"
There are certainly a bunch of good things about Valve. They're not THQ, for example ;). But there are two (and only two) things I do have against Valve: 1. Steam, and 2. (rant begin) The fact that their flagship franchise, the Half-Life series, for all it's advancements, is still one of the most linear FPSes in history. The whole damn game is one long glorified hallway! The level designs are a stone's throw away from House of the Dead (And no, I'm not talking about the graphical style). Killer 7 is considered to be "on-rails", but its levels are still less linear than Half-Life's. The levels in the original Doom were less linear.
DangerMouse @ Feb 22nd 2008 11:58AM
Yeah, i can't think of a mistake either.
Other than telling the world that Half-Life 2 was delayed the same day the game was supposed to come out. Not many companies have the balls to pull that shit.
Godmil @ Feb 22nd 2008 12:12PM
The only mistake I can think Valve made with steam was having a countdown timer for the release of Bioshock, which was set to your system clock and not the actual release... then waiting till the end of the day before unlocking it.. that was annoying.
Having said that I'd buy only from steam (which I nearly do).
It's nice knowning Levine praised the story telling in HL2, it's amazing to think how long ago HL2 came out, and today I think Levine is the only developer who really learned something about how Valve have developed the language of video games.
ogvor @ Feb 22nd 2008 12:13PM
Steam had a rough start at the beginning, but as of right now it's kicking Windows Live's ass handidly. I had given up on the PC until the Steam community features came out. I bought the Orange Box on PC becuase of them and I'll be buying Left 4 Dead on the PC instead of Xbox 360 too.
ThornedVenom (Ludwig Defense Force) @ Feb 22nd 2008 1:05PM
Windows Live? It's still alive?
Quite ironic like name, wouldn't you think?