Rumor: Blu-ray in Xbox 360 could start a price war
If you believe yesterday's rumor from Digitimes that Microsft is looking to integrate a Blu-ray drive into future revisions of the Xbox 360 console, then you'll want to hear their followup: their source claims that "Sony, as a main global producer of BD-ROM pick-up heads, may decide to combat the market competition by selectively reducing the supply of key BD-ROM components to OEM makers partnering with Microsoft on the new Xbox 360 drives."
What does this mean? Since the BD-ROM drives are roughly $95-100 "according to industry sources," and since the current DVD-ROM drives in the Xbox 360 are only $18-20, Microsoft would ostensibly be selling the console at a loss or risk selling a Blu-ray equipped 360 for more than a PlayStation 3. (Here, we'll do the math for you: $350 Xbox 360 Pro + $80 price delta > $400 PS3). So what happens if Sony jacks prices or withholds components, making that margin even less palatable to Microsoft? We're really not sure ... competition is always good for consumers, but Sony controlling the means of production is certainly an x-factor. Oh yeah, that is if Blu-ray is coming to Xbox 360 at all.
[Via Engadget]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
rTwelve @ Apr 2nd 2008 3:03PM
The math.... uh... you lost me.
Mills and Boom @ Apr 2nd 2008 3:04PM
Hopefully this will be like the HD-DVD drive and would work on a computer too.
Lars @ Apr 2nd 2008 6:33PM
They've had BD for PC's for a few years now.
Regarding the article. It seems like an April fools gag (if so, it's in poor taste). It's too late to upgrade the 360's media drive, unless you want it just for movies. The whole point of putting it in the PS3 was so that game discs will have large enough capacity for the new generation of games (which always grow in size astronomically). Playing BD movies was just a side bonus.
Maverick Saturn @ Apr 2nd 2008 3:05PM
"DD is the future"
Ed @ Apr 2nd 2008 5:33PM
Yes just like Computers and Movie theaters destroyed books, Video destroyed Movie theaters, and DD destroyed CD's and the internet destroyed News papers and Televised news and... Oh wait a minute, none of that really happened either.
Mills and Boom @ Apr 2nd 2008 5:40PM
Yup. I only buy PC games off Steam now. Music, films and TV shows off iTunes. I've only got a 2mb connection too but it saves so much time and money this way. Hell if a game is launched at 9am then it'd be quicker for me to download it by the time I've gone into town, bought dinner and come back home!
LaughingTarget @ Apr 2nd 2008 5:59PM
If by DD you mean bra size, I would like that.
Ed @ Apr 2nd 2008 6:34PM
@Mills.
I can't quite figure out if your being sarcastic, or laughably serious. It takes me 10 minutes to go to the store, five minutes to purchase the and ACTUALLY OWN what I baught, and 10 minutes to go back home. As for the future of DD it always amazes me how MS preaches to high heaven about how many people take their X-boxes online, yet for some reason the overwhelming number of people who don't gets swept under the rug.
Figman @ Apr 2nd 2008 3:05PM
methinks this could have been an april fools prank anyone else?
PSN: KillaKornbread (the shirt is a lie!) @ Apr 2nd 2008 3:15PM
it more than likely was just an April Fools joke. though i do believe that the 360 will eventually get Blu-ray, Microsoft is not that stubborn that they would let Sony be the only ones to offer a high def disc movie format since i dont think the world is ready for digital distribution just yet. whether its internal or external is the biggest question.
NATO_Duke @ Apr 2nd 2008 3:06PM
No way! Next you are going to say that capitalism is coming to America. Nuts I tell you!!
(In Russia, Blu Ray player plays you.)
McWeen @ Apr 2nd 2008 3:07PM
This isn't even a rumor so much as reaching speculation.
I will care about HD formats as soon as they are under $15 until then regular DVDs are fine by me since you can't tell the difference.
Mills and Boom @ Apr 2nd 2008 3:10PM
Bingo. My super expensive TV does wonders to DVDs. So much so I haven't bothered with any film above 576i since the initial demos. I'd rather not pay more just because a film is in a higher resolution, thanks.
BTW I'm going to buy Assassins Creed for PC later, does anyone know the price difference between the 640x480 and 1050*1024 versions? WAIT THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE.
Rollins @ Apr 2nd 2008 3:10PM
I can tell the difference.
That said, I could see a Blu-Ray equipped Elite model in the future. The 120GB hard drive isn't doing a good job of justifying the Elite's price at the moment. I'm pretty sure MSFT could throw a Blu-Ray laser in and keep a similar price. They might lose a little bit, but not as much as if they tried to standardize it across the 360 line.
Phranctoast @ Apr 2nd 2008 3:20PM
You cant tell a difference? There is as much of a difference between DVD and Blu Ray as there is between PS2/xbox games and the ps3/360 games graphically.
McWeen @ Apr 2nd 2008 3:25PM
"You cant tell a difference? There is as much of a difference between DVD and Blu Ray as there is between PS2/xbox games and the ps3/360 games graphically."
So you agree that there is no difference. PS3/360 all look the same no matter what bullshit the marketing powers that be got you to swallow.
Crono (NDF - Knight of the Old School) @ Apr 2nd 2008 3:25PM
Phranc. Just no.
1st, the only difference is Resolution. That being number of dots of color on the screen.
2nd, the difference between a ps2 game and a ps3 game is lighting, effects, physics, polygon count, etc.
The difference between DVD and blu-ray is more like the difference between Gears of War at 480p and 1080p. That being, a little bit sharper, but not to much to write home about.
And, if you have a decent scaler in your tv/dvd player, that difference is further negated.
Intentless @ Apr 2nd 2008 3:34PM
Your talking animated products. Yeah there isn't much difference because the artist can only draw in so much detail. But when you watch a live sporting event or a live action move there is a hell lot of more detail.
Blades of grass writing on jerseys. Blemishes on the actors skin that normally wouldn't show... Ask the porn industry.
Phranctoast @ Apr 2nd 2008 3:36PM
@crono.
we could get technical in that respect and you would be correct with the textures and the other BS. There are other factors, but you have to admit, the jump from ps1 to ps2 appears to be a lot larger than the ps2 to ps3.
The big factor this generation is the resolution. Look at most games. They could be done on last gen. The resolution is the only big thing that makes the jump worth it. If one didn't have a HDTV, I see no reason to buy the 360 or the PS3. Difference is negligible.
Crono (NDF - Knight of the Old School) @ Apr 2nd 2008 4:06PM
PS1 to PS2 was a 4x jump in resolution (320x240 to 640 x 480). That, and the number of polys in ps1 games was barely passable. It was enough to get the point across. PS2 approached realism much better.
Let me try this a different way. When you are watching football on TV in HD, its a pictoral representation of reality. When whatching in SD, its a pictoral representation of that SAME reality. The source content is identical. The only difference is the resolution. You're also forgetting about the difference between a normal SD picture, which is 720x240 with interlacing, and ED picture which is 720x480 progressive scan.
So when you're watching SD football on hdtv, the signal you're getting is the 720x240 one. But when you watch a DVD on your HDTV, you're getting 720x480. And depending on the scaler and image processing involved, that image is upscaled to match the native resolution of your TV. While not true HD, its much better than just stretching the image to fit.
So, to attempt to summarize: 1080p is exactly 6X 480p, but 12x more resolution than 480i, but likely only about 3x as many pixels as a well upscaled DVD. And if you happen to be one of those people who thinks that 720p is good enough if you're on your couch: 720p is only 3x as many pixels as 480p, and 6x 480i.
In case you're curious, 1080p is 2.25x as many pixels as 720p.
So if 720p is your HD threashold, then upscaled DVDs are plenty good enough. And if 1080p is your threshhold, then upscaled DVDs still look pretty damn good.
Matt @ Apr 2nd 2008 4:19PM
So many people simply think they NEED a Blu-Ray player and Blu-Ray movies.
These are people who:
a) are ignorant fools who think there is some huge, discernable difference.
b) have a lot of disposable income to essentially WASTE on $30 versions of their $10-15 DVD counterpart movies, in which case why can't they just go and buy a Blu-Ray player? Better yet, buy that player than plays BOTH, since they can SO afford to invest in HD-DVD too (they're already throwing their money away on Blu-Ray, why stop there?)
hoagie @ Apr 2nd 2008 4:27PM
"Can't tell a difference"
Sure, if you're on an SDTV/EDTV maybe... am I the only one WTF'ing at this? Seriously....
Mr Khan @ Apr 2nd 2008 4:38PM
Nope, i have an HDTV now (two, actually), and am now just able to start using Component for my DVDs, and I really don't see the need to invest in anything more
The kind of cable the connection runs on really makes a difference, someone running a DVD player through coax and through Component is a neat advance right there
Crono (NDF - Knight of the Old School) @ Apr 2nd 2008 4:40PM
Khan,
If you're running cables through component now, you have just upgraded to progressive scan. Coax or composite is still interlaced. Thats why you see such a big difference.
JakubK666 (Ninja Defence Force) @ Apr 2nd 2008 4:42PM
Post me a comparison of HD and SD.
Will it be worth 100% price increase? NO!
cc123 @ Apr 2nd 2008 4:42PM
@Crono
Another way to look at the whole upscaling thing:
DVD 720x480 = 345,600 pixels
720P 1280x720 = 921,600 pixels
1080P 1920x1080 = 2,073,600 pixels
If you upscale a DVD on a 720P display you are adding 576,000 pixels worth of new information. If you are upscaling to a 1080P display you are adding 1,728,000 pixels worth of new information. The difference is freaking huge!
This new information is being calculated by algorithms and it will NEVER look as good as the original source mastered at 1080P. And a machine doing calculations will never get it as good as the original!
"So if 720p is your HD threashold, then upscaled DVDs are plenty good enough. And if 1080p is your threshhold, then upscaled DVDs still look pretty damn good."
NO and NO.
Farseer (GDI) @ Apr 2nd 2008 4:46PM
"And if 1080p is your threshhold [sic], then upscaled DVDs still look pretty damn good."
Yes, they may look good, but a BR/HD-DVD looks much better, especially when you increase your screen size. A 1080p picture is much, much cleaner on a 100" screen than a 1080i or 720p picture - night and day to me, at least.
Farseer (GDI) @ Apr 2nd 2008 4:48PM
"And if 1080p is your threshhold [sic], then upscaled DVDs still look pretty damn good."
Yes, they may look good, but a BR/HD-DVD looks much better, especially when you increase your screen size. A 1080p picture is much, much cleaner on a 100" screen than a 1080i or 720p picture - night and day to me, at least.
Farseer (GDI) @ Apr 2nd 2008 4:53PM
@ Matt:
Well aren't you a basket of happy flowers. If it weren't for early adapters, nothing would ever come down in price, and we would never have new technology. Face it. There's nothing wrong with you being a tightass, but don't crap on those of us who allow you to now buy DVD players for under $100 and DVDs for under $10. I'm sure you recall a time when DVD players were $500+ and you couldn't get a DVD for under $25.
Farseer (GDI) @ Apr 2nd 2008 4:54PM
Sorry 'bout the double post.
John McPoop @ Apr 2nd 2008 5:09PM
Sorry to tell you guys but there is a HUGE difference to even an untrained eye in quality... Granted you need the right television to notice a difference... If you still using an older model TV your picture will look like shit regardless... I can understand not wanting to spring for a new standard especially with inflated brick and mortar prices (buy em online they are as much as a regular dvd)... But there is a big difference... Think about it, if not then they wouldn't even bother...
You guys can fool yourself into thinking the sharper resolution is not different et all but do me a favor and go by your local electronics store and check out a comparison video of an upscaled DVD and a Blu-Ray... The difference is HUGE
As far as Digital Distribution goes... Well i am sure the same people taht were complaining about the time for install of a PS3 game are the same people who think DD is the way of the future... You think an install is bad just wait to download an entire gameover your less than fiber optic internet connection and holler back about installs... DD is the way of the distant future when storage is uber cheap and speeds are blazing fast... Even then there will always be a market for a physical medium... For me anyway
Crono (NDF - Knight of the Old School) @ Apr 2nd 2008 5:13PM
Except it isn't new information you are adding, its just higher definition of the same information. You are right, upscaled will never look as good as an HD mastered original, but a well made computer algorithm can interpoliate accurate probably 85% of that "extra" data.
Will it look as good as BR? no. Will it look alot better than standard DVD, hell yes. Is the difference between true HD and upscaled DVD negligible? Its all in the eye of the beholder.
And since it would take a minimim of 400 dollars and 2x the cost of the movies for me to experience the minute difference, I think I'll pass for now.
I'll jump aboard the BR train when movies are 10-20 bucks on average and I can get a player for less than 100 dollars.
Until then, upscaled DVDs are plenty good enough.
Crono (NDF - Knight of the Old School) @ Apr 2nd 2008 5:16PM
"You guys can fool yourself into thinking the sharper resolution is not different et all but do me a favor and go by your local electronics store and check out a comparison video of an upscaled DVD and a Blu-Ray... The difference is HUGE"
You mean those side by side videos than play in BR players, made and produced by sony to sell BR players?
Its propaganda. If you're DVD's look as nasty as they "DVD" in those comparison videos, then there's something wrong with your TV, DVD player, AND your cables.
Sorry for the double post.
cc123 @ Apr 2nd 2008 5:30PM
"Except it isn't new information you are adding, its just higher definition of the same information."
It's new information that is based off the information on the DVD. Anyway you do it IS new because it wasn't there on the DVD.
"but a well made computer algorithm can interpoliate accurate probably 85% of that "extra" data."
Link? Not trying to be a dick, I really do like reading about this stuff.
"And since it would take a minimim of 400 dollars and 2x the cost of the movies for me to experience the minute difference, I think I'll pass for now.
I'll jump aboard the BR train when movies are 10-20 bucks on average and I can get a player for less than 100 dollars."
You are now talking about a personal valuation of HD movies. This has nothing to do with the real world difference between all the resolutions and techniques we talked about.
"Until then, upscaled DVDs are plenty good enough TO YOU."
Fixed that for you.
John McPoop @ Apr 2nd 2008 5:54PM
@Crono
I am not just talking Blu-Ray here even though I said Blu-Ray.. Im also talking HD DVDs... I also have an HD DVD player and I even marvel at the picture quality there opposed to a regular or even upscaled DVD... As far as prices go.. Well all you need to do is go online to site like Amazon.com and you can find Blu-ray movies and HD DVDs for damn near the exact same price as a new release DVD... There are even an entire slew of HDDVDs and BRs that are under $12.00! I am not talking crap either but rather some good flicks...
If you want to insinuate that my player, cables and TV are the problem thats your perogative... there is nothing wrong with a standard DVD and in fact I still buy those as well because everything I want is not available on an HD format but I can certainly tell you that there is a huge difference with my setup... I have a 50+ incher HDTV and a smaller 40 something inch TV in the bedroom that both go up to 1080p, running an HDMI cable on both and there is a huge difference... If you do not think the cost is worth the upgrade in picture quality thats your opinion and your money but to say that the difference is negligable at best is being completely disingenious...
@cc123
I always enjoy reading your post on joystiq... You really know what your talking about and can back it all up ...
Crono (NDF - Knight of the Old School) @ Apr 2nd 2008 6:03PM
No link. Guestimations, honestly, based on what I've researched about scaling and interpolating.
Lets have an example. Most DVDs are mastered now adays from HD sources. You can check the back on any DVD box in best buy and you'll find something to the effect of "Mastered in High Definition". This doesn't mean whats on the disc is HD, just that it was compiled from an HD source.
Next, on interpolation. Take a 100x100 pixel region on an image.
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk79/crono141_bucket/100x100.jpg
Now blow it up to 500x500.
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk79/crono141_bucket/100x100.jpg
What you have on a straight upscale is large blocks of color taking up 5x5 blocks of pixel. This gives you a range of color as a baseline. An upscaler takes these base colors, figures out color delta between the large (5x5) chunks and uses this information to plot baselines of where those colors on the image would be if they took up 1x1 pixel instead of 5x5. Then it blends the distance between those lines with "new information". Not really new information, but interpolating at a higher resolution the data that was available at a lower resolution.
Our example increased the size by 25x. How much more accurate would that interpolation be at 6x-12x.
The theory behind upscaling is sound at the resolutions we're talking about (720 x 480 up to 1920 x 1080) There is enough base definition at the low resolution to accurately predict what is missing at the high end.
The 85% was a number I pulled out of my butt. But if you really think about what interpolation is as it applies to upscaling an image, it isn't hard to imagine the final result being even better than that.
cc123 @ Apr 2nd 2008 7:25PM
@Crono
"Lets have an example. Most DVDs are mastered now adays from HD sources. You can check the back on any DVD box in best buy and you'll find something to the effect of "Mastered in High Definition". This doesn't mean whats on the disc is HD, just that it was compiled from an HD source."
Isn't this just new marketing speak? Unless the original movie was shot with a camcorder then the vast majority of DVDs have been mastered from HD sources. Movies are shot in resolutions (film equivalent) that is much MUCH higher than even 1080P.
I know what you're talking about with regards to interpolation. It's basically creating a gradient between one pixel to the next which tends to have a smoothing effect on films. Real life doesn't always have a direct color path between one point to the next so you miss a lot of the finer details when upconverting.
"The 85% was a number I pulled out of my butt. But if you really think about what interpolation is as it applies to upscaling an image, it isn't hard to imagine the final result being even better than that."
You're telling me that if we take a pristine 1080P frame, shrink it down to 720x480, then blow that back up to 1080P using interpolation like you just described that 1,814,000 out of the total 2,073,600 would be true to the original 1080P frame.
I would have to *strongly* disagree with that, not just because of the math, but also from seeing upscalers at work.
@John
Thank! =)
DangerMouse @ Apr 2nd 2008 3:08PM
Sega-BD.
soot @ Apr 2nd 2008 3:09PM
April Fool's, el oh el.
Intentless @ Apr 2nd 2008 3:10PM
First... Yeah you can tell the difference... Anyway... Are there not laws regarding inflating the pricing for items used in production... Didn't we just see some legal investigations and cases regarding LCD screens? SONY can't legally inflate its pricing without legitimate cause.
Nate @ Apr 2nd 2008 3:23PM
Sony can charge whatever the hell they like, it's called a free market. What they can't do is conspire with competitors to keep prices high. That's called price fixing.
Grog @ Apr 2nd 2008 4:39PM
No, Nate, it's called a monopoly. If you'd like an example, look at the antitrust cases in the US and EU against Microsoft.
Crono (NDF - Knight of the Old School) @ Apr 2nd 2008 3:12PM
Isn't this what we call price fixing and unfair business practices? You know, things most capitalist governments have laws against?
Even if not, Sony isn't the ONLY maker of BD pickups, just the majority maker. If sony makes this move, it would drive those OEM customers to one of the other companies making BD pickups.
Hurray capitalism.
SoulBlade @ Apr 2nd 2008 3:15PM
Tell it to the oil companies...
Phranctoast @ Apr 2nd 2008 3:16PM
Go move to Cuba.
primetime4 @ Apr 2nd 2008 3:20PM
I think it's a little cheap to have every article on Joystiq end as a set up for a flame war. The entire piece is about unfair business practices between two of the biggest offenders in the world.
Intentless @ Apr 2nd 2008 3:24PM
Soul Blade.. Sadly the price of oil isn't being "inflated" it is reflecting the current market for oil.. America isn't getting the discount it used to get essentially. Although there is the issue of do they reallly need to have a profit margin of BILLIONS!
SoulBlade @ Apr 2nd 2008 3:35PM
Intentless - don't want to get off topic, but it's more disturbing that when there's a decrease in the barrel price there isn't a quick change in price at the pump, but when you hear about an increase, the price at the pump jumps almost instantly.
Intentless @ Apr 2nd 2008 4:08PM
There is that issue too... At least our prices arn't what they are in europe. But at the same time they are used to higher prices and economy and vehicles are based on that. While americans are BIGGER IS BETTER MUST OWN TRUCK WITH MAX BED CAPACITY... 5 miles to the gallon is nothing... And I'm sitting here and can't wait till they wake up.... Cause that will be fun...
Lone Starr @ Apr 2nd 2008 6:32PM
Crono,
This is NOT price-fixing. Please learn about capitalism before you proceed to bash it.
Let's assume for a second that Sony has the sole discretion in licensing BD technology. If they decide that they don't want MS having the technology, or if they decide they want to charge MS more, how is that price fixing? That is their right.
If Sony were not allowed to do this, it would be the equivalent of me going to your house and forcing you to let me take a gigantic post-Taco Bell dump in your sparkling clean bathroom, wipe myself with your toothbrush, and smear the extras over your floor.