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Posted: May 4th 2008 3:37AM zsavior said

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Sorry for the length in advance.

Casual and Hardcore just isn't real and developers that tell you thus have lost their hold on the industry. They are retreating to the market of gamers they know they can cater to, and turning their back on anything else because they don't know how to make a game beyond that.

He mentions movies as an example, but he is further from anything that a movie company does. Matter of fact if he and Spielberg and Coppola or any such movie industry personal sat together he would see that his company out ranks him in their diversity of story telling skill and ability.

This is also the reason many attack games for being none artistic. I will explain, when is the last time you have heard Spielberg, Lucas, Howard ever go FUCK FAMILY MOVIES! Quite the opposite each have had their hand in creating films that reach a diversified audience. Spielberg who has done "Saving Private Ryan" And "Schindler's List" has also done "E.T." and Indian Jones. In the medium of movies you never see the creators say "Well I am going to limit myself to this genre and type of movie goer, and FUCK everything else." Yet in gaming this trend has become very apparent, the act of saying "FUCK THAT GROUP" and not creating, siting that only one type of gamer benefits from story and atmosphere has become a popular mantra.Only substitute, story and atmosphere for cash and graphics and you see what they really mean.

It tells you two things, they believe story and atmosphere is some how linked to one style of games, second their minds can not go beyond that. Honestly he can't come close to movies and keep that train of thought that only their type of games and gamers are sophisticated.

Even when you read his comments they reek of somebody who just copies what they see, they didn't create a New York, they copied a New York created by film and television. I complement Rockstar on Selling GTA IV and selling a game to a market that is there. But as far as expanding their market with their current thinking good luck with that. If you believe copying movies and adding millions of dollars will work forever good luck it will become stale real quick.

Also these guys heads are so over blown to even believe they stand up to that medium right now is really mind boggling. They can't make games with out over sized "movie" budgets and production, comparing themselves to movies to that I say,Oh really? So they spent over 70 million on GTA IV lets compare that to acclaimed movies. Juno spent only 7.5 million, There will Be blood, an award winning title 25 Million. Jim Farveau the man who today directed Iron man which took millions to create; wrote the cult classic 1996 movie Swingers it was produced for 200,000 dollars.

SO some how movie creators are able to create spectacular stories and films with out huge budgets but games...not so much huh? Production value and special effects doesn't dictate how a good a movie is, and it is a damn shame that game markers now are trying to define the upper market of gamers by only those values. A good movie uses visuals and budget to push along a cohesive and engaging plot and story, not just fling money at a project because it is a movie.

If this is gaming's artist then really gaming has a long way to go. You see people playing WII sports your mind should say "If I create a mature engaging plot with the controls they like maybe they will play my game to and I will have even more fans" what you don't say is "FUCk you Guys, I have 150 million dollars that you will never get to lay your grubby casual hands ON!" Because really who is losing out, you who make games for people to play or them who don't even know who the hell you are?

Posted: May 4th 2008 4:05AM (Unverified) said

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Zsavior 1st film is a vastly inferior medium to film or the written word for that matter.
2nd games are more aboot being the character then watching the character.
3rd "casual" games really are an insult to real games, they have no substance, no game play (well of any merit anyway), games are meant take you to another world/reality not waggle your hand. I don't hate the Wii but I do hate "casual" games and "casual gamers", they are a mockery of all that I hold sacred.
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Posted: May 4th 2008 4:28AM zsavior said

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Kujel that is your opinion, But he compared Games to Movies, he said nothing about Movies to to written word.
As movies, go they range in a large diversity of genres and styles for groups and audiences. I do not believe Film is inferior to written word just like I don't believe games are inferior to films.

What I believe is the game makers or settling with making inferior products, by his own words he said budgets and production values towards film standards. A great film doesn't have to have a large budget to be great. Also, I don't believe in Casual or Hardcore gaming, there is up market and lower market, and who has had an attachment rate longer in gaming makes up those two markets.

Saying Fuck a large amount of gaming cause you don't like what they play is sad, instead put your thought and your ability into their medium and introduce them to another side of the their gaming experience. What you do with your hands should not deject from the story being developed on the screen, that is an excuse. So you waggle you hands how does that change a story from being thought provoking and engaging.

If you believe Film is inferior to movies fine. But that means he is comparing video games to an inferior medium off the back. Also in films depending on how the story is told you are either watching the character, or you are seeing the story develop and change with them just like a video game. If you watch the movie, Memento, you watch the story evolve through the characters eyes and know what he knows you become that character and what ever revelation he finds is as much as a surprise to you as it is to him. As opposed to say a movie like the Matrix where you know what the character is and is supposed to become, but you must wait till they realize it. It matters what the story teller wants to depict not the medium in which it is in.
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Posted: May 4th 2008 4:40AM Vidikron said

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For the record, There will Be Blood sucks. It went absolutely nowhere.
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Posted: May 4th 2008 4:52AM zsavior said

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Vid not that I don't agree, but many will say the Same about GTA IV second I am just comparing critically acclaimed and award films. Even though yea I believe it was overrated even though I like Daniel Day-Lewis and think he is an excellent actor.
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Posted: May 4th 2008 6:11AM hey buddy said

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Did I miss something? What are you guys talking about "Film is better than film which is better than movies" or whatever you're saying? Am I on crazy pills? You're talking about the same thing. What word/media did you guys mean?

Next, I see where you're trying to go with all that 'film budget' stuff, but you said it yourself, Z: Favreau directed 'Swingers' for cheap, now makes Ironman for millions - a very comparable relationship for Rockstar's low-budget GTA 1, now makes GTA4 for millions. As films and the examples you cited:
• Different stories require different budgets.
Filming a scene in NYC requires a crew, some permits, and a script. The city has hundreds of years of character already, ready to burst on the frame of film. This city is a character in itself. Making a game based in a city like GTA requires a lot of work to create that inherent character that Woody Allen or Spike Lee can catch with 5 minutes of set-up. The environment, the audio, the interactions of the people on the street that are so easily created with humans and a city in a scene on film are weird voodoo experiments in A.I. for game developers. Creating that in a decent timeframe takes teams of people, specialized people in a fairly new industry that is only starting to mess with budgets and projects of these scales. So I'm trying to say I don't think the comparisons you drew are matched.

Next, Vid: 'There Will Be Blood' was a good film. Don't try watching any Kubrick or Antonione films, they 'don't go anywhere' either but we're all better because they got made. And Z, look into 'Sunset Boulevard,' 'Double Indemnity,' or any other classic 'film noir' if you're into 'Memento.'
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Posted: May 4th 2008 7:53AM Jakey777 said

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For fuck sake.He didn't say "Fuck the casual games".All he said was "Fuck all the undeserved hype and attention Wii and Casual Games are getting".
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Posted: May 4th 2008 8:03AM zsavior said

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Illtrooper I see your point, but because Iron was made for a bigger budget does not detract from the fact that swingers was a great movie, and the same could be done with games.

Also I really did like Memento,the way that story unfolded was a slap to the face, I really respect the hell out of Christopher Nolan, and I am going to check those movies out you mentioned,because I really like that genre from the twist they lay down. You have a really good point with Kubrik films, I never quite understood where he was going sometimes but I did enjoy the film. It just felt like There will Be blood was carried only by Lewis and his performance, you are left thinking if he wasn't such a good actor would this movie be enjoyable at all.
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Posted: May 4th 2008 3:54AM Street Corner Flasher said

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Yet another developer that thinks only inside of the box when it comes to the Wii. "Controller is a gimmik duuuuuurrrrrr, developars ned teh cell and dah graphix." Little does he divulge that the reason the studio put so much production into the game is because the publisher was willing to pay for the top quality artists, writers, and programmers the industry has to offer. Offer that combination on any system and you'll get a top notch game. This guy's opinion = joke.

Aside from that, fascinating stuff about GTA IV.

Posted: May 4th 2008 4:40AM Vidikron said

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For the record, There will Be Blood sucks. It went absolutely nowhere.

Posted: May 4th 2008 4:51AM (Unverified) said

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My problem with Wii games is the games people claim to be top tier and always come back to ... um ... to refute the "wii is a toy" complaint, really do nothing to show the strengths of the system...

Z:TP for example... done just as well on the GC, Prime3 probably could have done the same thing, Galaxy ... does waving a star around the screen really add that much to what a good Mario game is? No More Heroes... ? Does repetitive waving add that much to that game? I'm sure there will be those that disagree with my opinion on that, and that is fine... Some people REALLY love Nintendo, I understand.

Any of these games could probably have been done much to the same success on any console, not just the Wii... So far, in my experience, yours may differ, the Wii just hasn't offered much besides a cheap waggle stick and some fun times with the older generations... Don't get me wrong, that is an accomplishment... Gaming accomplishment? Probably not, Social accomplishment? Bet your ass it is.

Personally, I don't own a Wii because the video games on it... I own a Wii, because my family likes Wii Bowling. If it wasn't for them, I would have sold this little white box for a profit a long time ago.

Posted: May 4th 2008 9:49AM Roto13 said

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If you truly and honestly don't understand why the Wiimote makes Metroid Prime 3 awesome, you've obviously never played it.

And yeah, slashing people in half with the Wiimote in NMH is hella satisfying.
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Posted: May 4th 2008 10:46AM (Unverified) said

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You can still sell it and probably make at least $150 in profit. Then just buy another one for the family so you end up with a little extra money.
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Posted: May 4th 2008 5:31AM hey buddy said

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I took his comment to mean 'fuck all this FOCUS and EMPHASIS on casual gaming,' as in "yeah it's big right now, but I want to develop large-scale games like GTA."

Not to be translated by rabid Wii fans as "The Wii: Fuck That™."

...Obviously R* has made games for the Wii, and some really high-profile ones at that.

Posted: May 4th 2008 6:24AM (Unverified) said

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I smell trolly headline, all he says is "Fuck all that shit in the media that casual gaming is now more important than anything." he clearly doesn't say "Fuck people who want to play games a couple of hours occasionally".

I don't get the purpose of this post except for provoking a heated discussion (congrats, you did it) and pushing the interview.

Posted: May 4th 2008 6:33AM FakeJamaican said

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LOL @ 100% on GTA4..

I only bought this game to start chaos like the old games.... but now with Freemode, online...the chaos is even BETTER!!!!!!!!

200 pigeons? That sounds like fun....

Posted: May 4th 2008 7:11AM (Unverified) said

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I think some people need to read more.

Posted: May 4th 2008 7:38AM koehler83 said

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Insult casual gaming all you like Dan.. but PixelJunk runs at 1080p at 60Hz and has never frozen a PS3 system in its existence.

Thats a very big goal to set. Can you say the same about your games Dan?

I think a lot of people need to keep their mouths shut. Myself included I understand.. but I never claimed to be better than anyone else.

Posted: May 4th 2008 8:23AM (Unverified) said

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"but PixelJunk runs at 1080p at 60Hz"

That's the saddest thing I've read today.

Get over it.
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Posted: May 4th 2008 8:35AM LaughingTarget said

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Welcome to the world where people actually have different tastes. The Wii didn't invent casual gaming, it has been around for over a decade. Nintendo decided to do for casual gaming what the console has been doing with more time consuming gaming - take it away from the PC and put it on the TV screen for a fraction of the cost.

I have no idea why Dan feels threatened. Last generation's GTA buyers aren't going to suddenly turn into people only interested in Carnival Games and gaming isn't a dying breed, so there will always be new customers. Just make your product, make it well, and let the people who actually enjoy mini-games do their thing.

Posted: May 4th 2008 8:56AM Dummy00001 said

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""gamers still want games with production values and narratives that rival those of big-budget movies""

And that comes in after memorable quote from Steven Spielberg that making "big-budget" movies is in past: very risky business-wise and by trying to appeal to wider audience, core fans are lost.

This guy is slightly out of reality. Like most "hardcore gamers" are.

On other side, if we continue to draw parallels with movie industry, high-profile TV shows (which literally replacing movies e.g. Smallville) are pretty big. And notice that gaming industry is also lining up after the concept: e.g. Square Enix plans for WiiWare with small budget titles and DLC for them.

As otaku, to me better parallel is actually manga. They are deep. They are narrative. But they are cheap. And looks at the crowd of minions - hardcore fans - surrounding the mangas. But I guess the parallel is dead on take off: manga writers are normally one of the crowd of minions and they are inheritly close to the fandom community, discussing all ideas in open. But usual image of game developer is a cool nihilistic out-of-reality guy who is pissing on fans of his games and the fans accept his piss as mana or godsend.

Posted: May 4th 2008 9:19AM (Unverified) said

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Lol that's okay, he's a scouser though. So his opinion is as unimportant as it gets.

And will these devs stop tryin to make noise about Nintendo pwning this gen. Thx.

Posted: May 4th 2008 11:39AM (Unverified) said

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lol
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Posted: May 4th 2008 5:28PM (Unverified) said

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What's a scouser?
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Posted: May 4th 2008 2:20PM (Unverified) said

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I sometimes wonder - when Sony came out with rumble and dualshock for the PS1, what if they just renamed it the PS2 and charged $150 extra for it? Because thats exactly what Nintendo did with the wii, and why I lost faith in the company - they had a massive margin on the wii, why couldnt they stick a slightly better graphics card and more RAM in it?

Posted: May 4th 2008 2:25PM Jakey777 said

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Casual Games, FUCK YEAH!
Trying to crash the motherfucking market!
Casual Games, FUCK YEAH!
Playing them hour a day yeah,
Hardcorez your game is through cause now you have to play them too,
Casual Games, FUCK YEAH!

Posted: May 4th 2008 7:19PM TacoHell said

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As much as I love "Team America"...no...just no.
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Posted: May 5th 2008 4:24AM Ridgecity said

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Man, that guy needs some sun!!

Posted: May 5th 2008 8:46AM overflow said

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he speaks right out of my heart...

Posted: May 5th 2008 9:44AM AmplifiedJ said

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Okay, first off, I really wish everyone would stop tossing around completely subjective terms like "hardcore" and "casual" gamers, simply because everyone disagrees as to what exactly falls into these two groups. When I see the word "hardcore," I think of some 13 year old stuck in front of a computer 20 hours a day playing WoW. Like crazy kids cursing at TV on YouTube hardcore. Or thinking the Legend of Zelda theme is simply ORGASMIC hardcore. Sorry, I just do. Likewise,just because you don't necessarily play for long stretches of time and you don't read every single article on Joystiq, IGN, etc. doesn't necessarily mean you are the casual-beyond-casual-play-Wii-sports-for-5-minutes "casual gamer."

As for the man's comments, you guys bring up salient points, but keep in mind that while some of you are giving him shit for having high expectations for games that R* makes (translated into large budgets), it isn't like his company hasn't, and pardon the phrase, put its money where its mouth is.

GTA is not only known to be a groundbreaking franchise since III, but the scope of every one in the series has expanded to the point where it has continued to impress, and has culminated in a magnum opus. Yes, lots of money doesn't necessarily equate to best product. Yet with ambition, creativity, and passion, it doesn't matter how much you spend if it is done in the right way. I mean, do you think "Saving Private Ryan" was made on the cheap?

By now we've all pretty much interpreted that he wasn't saying "fuck the Wii!" I would at least give the man some props for having extraordinarily high expectations for himself and his company as well as the fact that that company has more often than not fulfilled said expectations. Not many game companies, film companies, or television studios do that anymore.

Posted: Jun 18th 2008 3:05AM (Unverified) said

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let me molest this nominal member and just remind the guys who forgot what johnny lee is doing with a wii. keyword is headtracking...so you guys save some money cos in 10 years when rockstar is releasing another gta part to make some 35 years old silly billies pay their welfare for the follower of the wii you guys will be drooling like a dog when it sees a bone.
i am just wondering how delusional people can be...the ps3 has got nothing that my pc wouldnt have...plus i can upgrade my pc anytime i want for a decent amount of money and i am not slave to some grifters whose prices are just ridicuous compared to what the publish...so you better compare you ps 3 to a pc then to the wii, which apparently has a totally different gaming approach then the wii has, any 5 year old could have told you...and thats great, because (gamers') life is about variety...so the normal people can have theirs, and the 4-eyed people can have their ps3 and play 24/7 at home on their own and not be in the streets and steal from poor granny... btw san andreas was the lamest game ever zzzZZ..until gta 4 came around... hyped and sold...way to ez to rip off them kids...

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