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Reader Comments (35)

Posted: May 22nd 2008 2:00PM (Unverified) said

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This is an awesome article. How did it wind up on Joystiq? *zing*
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Posted: May 22nd 2008 5:02PM (Unverified) said

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Also, who is this Mark Methenitis guy?
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Posted: May 22nd 2008 2:14PM Delgadoh said

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Interesting thing about Fair Use is that it is more of a "get out of jail free" card. Technically, no matter WHAT you are still infringing on copyrighted works even if the subject is within fair use. Its pretty much a "you're infringing on our material but we can't prosecute you" sort of thing.

I took a class on it earlier this year, and its a stupid distinction but one that comes up fairly frequently in court cases.
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Posted: May 22nd 2008 3:10PM (Unverified) said

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Actually not its not, fair use, when it was initially written was a "Limitation on Exclusivity" that a copyright granted.

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Posted: May 22nd 2008 3:55PM Swizzler said

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I really hate it when people say "Actually, Not" and in a campaign to prevent it's further use I have been punching anyone who says it, unfortunately your are in the Internets, and you have broken my other monitor :(

that is all.
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Posted: May 22nd 2008 2:15PM (Unverified) said

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I still think it's stupid that the main video game association (I can't think of the name right now for some reason) goes after people for downloading Dreamcast games. Why waste their time doing that when they could go after piracy that is actually effecting developers?
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Posted: May 22nd 2008 2:20PM (Unverified) said

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I was going to read the article, then try to post something insightful...


But the Goatse hands sticker in the middle of the pic kinda stopped that dream in its tracks.

For some reason that was worse than the actual picture.
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Posted: May 22nd 2008 2:29PM Delgadoh said

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No way in hell was that worse than the actual picture. Go look it up again and remind yourself why few things are actually worse.
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Posted: May 22nd 2008 2:41PM (Unverified) said

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Let me restate that then, I'm jaded enough that the actual image no longer bothers me. However that someone drew a version of it with an apple in it disturbs me.
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Posted: May 22nd 2008 2:28PM (Unverified) said

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I really don't consider the NES to be "commercially" available, if the only way to get it is a trade from one consumer to another (ebay).

Since no retail store carries a retail package, is it no longer available "commercially"?
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Posted: May 22nd 2008 2:55PM (Unverified) said

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What I surmised from this article is how blatantly arbitrary "fair use" is. "Commercially" available is difficult to determine simply because if we're including eBay and general reselling as an aspect of the definition, then that virtually makes every single game on the planet indefinitely protected. There will always be resale for 99.9% of products.

The DMCA is very poorly written as its exception clause -- "...for the purpose of preservation or archival reproduction of published digital works by a library or archive." -- could easily be applied to anyone at all. If I download a ROM and keep it, couldn't that similarly be applied to my archiving and preserving it?

What I wish Mr. Methenitis pointed out in his article is the most important aspect of all of this: if a company is willing to sue you for it, then you probably can't get away with it. If you stay under the radar, no one will care that you're violating the DMCA or any other copyrights or trademarks. That's really the bottom line.
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Posted: May 22nd 2008 3:16PM (Unverified) said

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Is there one instance of a game developer still getting revenue from an NES game? Are the developers getting income from sales of their cartridges? Since all trading of the product now are between consumers, there is not any money being given to the copyright holder. If there is no possible way to make money, as the copyright holder, from the product now (short of re-opening manufacturing), doesn't it make sense that it is not really "commercially" available and can thus be digitally stored?

From the sound of the DMCA it's only to archive that digital copies of a program are allowed. Even assuming all physical copies of the NES system were destroyed, it's doubtful that NES ROMS would ever become condoned, legit use.
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Posted: May 22nd 2008 3:18PM (Unverified) said

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Great article. I am an attorney also and I find it funny how often the "fair use" argument pops up, and is used incorrectly. I think that the DMCA is ripe for challenges on several issues, but most people just don't seem to understand that just because you are not making money from something it does not mean that you are legally copying it. I love explaining to people that even if you own a cd, it may be illegal to download a copy of the CD off of the internet. People just don't want to listen.
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Posted: May 22nd 2008 3:48PM chispito said

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You don't need to explain that to me. But you also are never going to convince me that it is wrong, especially if my original CD has become unplayable.

I know lawyers make a living out of arbitrary distinctions, but everybody else thinks it's pretty stupid.
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Posted: May 22nd 2008 4:12PM captaincthulhu said

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doesn't make sense...

so if I legally own a music CD and I turn that CD into mp3files that's ok. but if I legally own a music CD and I download the mp3's from the internet, that's illegal?

you must be able to see the foolishness of that
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Posted: May 22nd 2008 4:55PM captaincthulhu said

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sorry for another post on this but I just realized what you're saying with this one:

>> I love explaining to people that even if you own a cd, it may be illegal to download a copy of the CD off of the internet. People just don't want to listen.

first of all, you "love explaining this to people"? so lawyers really are masochists?

secondly, by your own words (and lawyers are supposed to be really exact with words, right?) you say "MAY be illegal to download". so you don't even know for sure yet you love telling people that AND you claim people don't want to listen?

no wonder nobody like lawyers...
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Posted: May 22nd 2008 2:44PM Drake Lake said

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I don't quite understand misconception number two. Does it mean you need to get permission/license anytime you make a video using a game/game engine, even if it is not for profit?
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Posted: May 22nd 2008 3:04PM (Unverified) said

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It's a better safe than sorry scenario. You can risk not obtaining permission from the copyright holder in respect to the right to parody but if it is even seen as a potential income loss to the originator then they may sue.

The intent behind these copyright protections is to ensure maximum revenue related to the copyright for the holder. If those revenues are adversely affected or if the one parodying is generating income that otherwise would have landed in the hands of the copyright holder, the one holding the copyright could pursue legal avenues.

The creators of Red vs. Blue makes money through DVD sales, online advertisement, public appearances, etc. on the backs of Halo. It's a very smart move of them to have it licensed beforehand. But it could be argued that they already don't impinge on any sales of Halo and in fact, likely assist in generating them.
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Posted: May 22nd 2008 3:20PM (Unverified) said

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Can it be argued, then, that anything that provides a net income for the copyright owner itself is protected under the free use? If the creators of red vs blue never lisenced from bungie, made thousands of dollars from dvd sales and site advertisements, but overall caused at least one more game sale for the copyright owner, they have nothing they can persue against you, can they?
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Posted: May 22nd 2008 4:19PM Drake Lake said

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Is it all moot if you're doing it for free, though?
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Posted: May 22nd 2008 6:27PM captaincthulhu said

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you forgot one of the scenarios that is often falsely called "piracy" by the industry when it clearly falls under Fair Use:

if I purchase a game (or app) legitimately and then use a crack to circumvent annoying protection (or to simply stop the requirement for the game DVD to be in my drive while playing) I am not committing piracy. I understand that the DMCA might suggest otherwise but that just goes to show how broken the DMCA is - it's meant to stop piracy by outlawing circumvention but the 2 are not mutually exclusive - it's like outlawing breathing to prevent smoking.

also, you mentioned that distribution of copyrighted material is still illegal even if you get nothing out of it. this is true but it wasn't always true - rather, it was still illegal but you couldn't get in trouble for doing it if there was no personal gain. when the recording industry realized that their greed wasn't sufficient against robin-hood-types, this changed. remember, robin hood is considered a hero, not a pirate.
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Posted: May 22nd 2008 8:33PM (Unverified) said

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Your bias against the recording industry is blinding you to what really happened. The situation was not a battle between good and evil as you imply. Record companies went on a witch hunt more from fear rather than greed. They were afraid that their entire industry was on the verge of collapse. Would you simply sit back and relax if you believed that your livelihood was at stake?

There are two sides to every story. Looking at the world in black and white led to the Iraq War.
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Posted: May 22nd 2008 9:12PM captaincthulhu said

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50% of your post is you judging me and the other 50% is your opinion. when i made the robin hood comparison I was actually thinking more about warez than mp3's but the same basic point still applies for those who aren't doing it for personal gain - the point was not good Vs. evil though I understand how you could have read it that way. but think about it, if they aren't doing it for personal gain, why ARE they doing it? Also, the underlying point of my post was say it's not a black&white issue, so i agree with you though your attack was misdirected.
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Posted: May 22nd 2008 3:33PM (Unverified) said

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Um before anythitng Am I the only one that notice the "Goatse" in the picture?
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Posted: May 22nd 2008 3:42PM (Unverified) said

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Nope i saw it too.
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Posted: May 22nd 2008 5:05PM (Unverified) said

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I, unfortunately, recognized it at first glance.
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Posted: May 22nd 2008 3:37PM (Unverified) said

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Re: Downloading ROMs.

First, circumventing copy protection technology (i.e., the NES cartridge) is only valid for libraries or archives for the purpose of preservation. Second, that use is limited to when the system is no longer reasonably available. Given that you can get an NES on eBay for a few dollars, this provision isn't yet applicable to NES games. Even if it were, the average user wouldn't be considered a "library or archive" by the courts

More importantly, the exception only applies to circumventing copy-protection technology, not to circumventing copyright. All this exception allows one to do, at most, is copy ones' own games from cartridge/disk to another medium/format without suffering prosecution under the DMCA.
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Posted: May 22nd 2008 3:38PM (Unverified) said

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The first paragraph ("First, circumventing...") should be in quotes. Sorry about that.
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Posted: May 22nd 2008 4:08PM (Unverified) said

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The DMCA also has a compatibility exemption. i.e. you can reverse engineer an NES game if you plan to make an NES emulator.
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Posted: May 22nd 2008 5:47PM Mr Khan said

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I still say it needs to be fixed. Fair use should revolve purely around money. If money is somehow being lost through use, then it is illegal

Like the whole series of SWAT Kats that i torrented a month back. Fair Use law would call it illegal, since the series is currently being shown on Boomerang at 12:30 EST. However, my Cable provider does not support Boomerang in any way, and i've yet to find a provider in my region who does. Thus; there is no way i could view the content through legitimate channels

It's like someone living in Zimbabwe pirating 360 games. 360 isn't offered in that region and probably never will be, so where's the loss?
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Posted: May 22nd 2008 6:24PM (Unverified) said

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The loss is the potential. Copyright law protects assets that MAY become profitable one day at the behest of the copyright holder.

Your example with Zimbabwe is an excellent one - what if Microsoft decided a couple years down the road to release the 360 in that country? Then the current pirating that exists would hamper the future potential profits of that system.
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Posted: May 22nd 2008 8:02PM (Unverified) said

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Money isn't the only issued involved. People also want to protect the integrity of their hard work.

Sprite webcomics are a prime example. If you had poured your blood sweat and tears into creating a videogame, would you be happy if someone used all your sprites for a crappy webcomic? This leads directly into complex issue of fair use for parody.
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Posted: May 23rd 2008 3:29AM (Unverified) said

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Money is why laws are written. While you're right to say protecting one's creative efforts plays a part in copyright, it's a brief choral role at best in a vast and lengthy capitalist musical where companies are the leads.

As stated earlier, it comes down to how much impact one has financially in use of the copyright. Square Enix would never care that Joe Peeboy writes Terra/Squall fanfiction in his basement. They DO care if it becomes lucrative.
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Posted: May 22nd 2008 11:30PM (Unverified) said

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Good article.. Though what it mainly does is point out the absurdities in the current system.

As the purpose of copyright is to protect commercial interests, it would seem much more sensible to tie "fair use" to whether it impact commercial interests. (with an exception for criticism).

Speed runs, clips, screenshots, etc.. all have no impact of the seller. In cases where there is a media change, limited sections are displayed, and they are for documentary and comment purposes, with no commercial transactions, it should be up to the copyright holder to show that it has some form of negatice impact on them.
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Posted: May 23rd 2008 8:57AM Uraeus said

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I felt the article was a bit inaccurate when it talked about CC licensing. CC licensing is not something different than 'copyright', it is simply a set of licenses, who all base their validity on the existence of copyright, to grant certain rights to the content in question. CC licenses solve some important issues in this online world and if more people (like Joystiq for instance) where to adopt them for their content it would help make the licensing on the content out there in line with how most internet sites and users actually consume it.
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