We always think it's fun to imagine living in alternate realities, where some of our favorite game designers get hold of some of our favorite properties. So, we were interested to hear what
David Jaffe had to say about the slew of Marvel comics games (specifically the ones featuring Spider-Man) that has been unleashed on the general populace (and continues to arrive). In short, Jaffe wants to see characters like Spidey put into a more story-driven game, rather than a giant, open world superhero playground that's solely focused on emulating the feel of having superpowers.
He's got a good point, one that's an all too common theme in superhero stories: Superhero gets powers, superhero spends all his time enjoying the rush of having said powers, superhero's uncle dies. Is that what you want from us Activision? Do you want
our uncles to die?
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
PojoMofo @ Jun 24th 2008 3:33PM
I dont disagree with Jaffe, the Marvel games hardly ever go into any in-depth character development. a Narrative based Spidey game would be a great additiom. I do think Web of Shadows looks good (although that name is kinda lame)
LiqwidZero @ Jun 24th 2008 3:39PM
Webs can make shadows. Especially if they're large enough, like cables.
Phranctoast @ Jun 24th 2008 5:02PM
or it could just be a venom reference.
Negativecool @ Jun 24th 2008 8:47PM
"I dont disagree with Jaffe"
So...would it be safe to say you...agree with Jaffe?
rafoca2008 @ Jun 24th 2008 3:36PM
I think a marvel game with a lot of narrative would be tedious. Marvel Ultimate ALliance, as well as both X-men Legends had a loooooooot of nice talking and good narrative, but it was cool to play because of the variety of powers and characters.
Right now, I´d love to see a open-ended co-op Marvel game. We have Spider-man and it is open-ended , but where is co-op? THat´s what I am talking about!
flanker22 @ Jun 24th 2008 3:37PM
anyone can make their opinion sound logical as long as you backup the claim.
i'm sure the people who made the open world spiderman said that they wanted to give people freedom to play the way they wanted to. less dialog scenes but rather more action. also the people who are buying these comic book tie in games dont give two shits about story and they'd rather skip them.
Easo @ Jun 25th 2008 8:57AM
As a long time comic book nerd(and someone who purchased and enjoyed the hulk and ironman), I would love to play through the civil war story as spiderman or captian america.
Sir Fidlious Wong (Justin T. McElroy Memorial Burn of the Day Award) @ Jun 24th 2008 3:50PM
I'm just waiting for the "Jaffe's a douche" comments...
Okay, well, he does have a point. In many Marvel games, the characters, etc exist solely to be another challenge with no purpose or both. I've yet to play a Marvel Comics game that didn't have a story that read like fanfics. While they haven't quite sunken to the level of "And then Wolverine hands Spidey a blunt and says "Smoke this shit... gives ya power, bub" and they both flow off to beat galactus's nutsack in," people act like Fing Fang Foom's sudden appearance on the Shield Helicarrier wasn't completely retarded.
Noshino @ Jun 24th 2008 3:56PM
I would have hoped that they took a bit more information on what he stated...
Here are 2 of his comments that he made about this matter
"I agree- for example- the combat video on 1up looked great! In the same way that the Indy Jones combat video Lucasarts showed last year looked cool. But if history serves, I would not be surprised if combat was the crux of both of those games and it's combat combat combat all day long and to me, not only does this get boring, but it doesn't speak to the promise of playing a game set in a comic universe, or Indy's universe"
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11677231&postcount=55
"Good story in games IS mission design and IS character mechanics. For me, good story in game design for a spidey game would be stuff like:"
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11677607&postcount=70
Dirty @ Jun 24th 2008 4:07PM
Jaffe is Douche!!!
Dirty @ Jun 24th 2008 4:21PM
JK, I like Jaffe. I don't always agree with him, but its nice to have a voice in the community coming from a developer. He seems very passionate about games, which also gives him very strong stances on what he feels is good or bad and lets you know it.
ComicShaman @ Jun 24th 2008 3:51PM
It's all in the execution. Concepts are great, but the proof is how well they're implemented. Spidey is a good example -- "Ultimate Spider-Man" tried to include a more in-depth story in a Spider-man game, and I believed they worked closely with Brian Bendis to try to weave in the comic continuity.
Personally, I was immensely disappointed. I found the young Parker to be an annoying twerp, the web-swinging was inferior to Spider-man 2, and I got so sick of the barrage of poorly-executed "chase the villain" sections that I thought I was going to throw up on my controller. I also didn't find the story particularly compelling.
So yeah, a story driven game is a fine idea... provided it's a good story with good gameplay. Too many superhero games don't get the fundamentals right, and that's the real problem.
Roto13 @ Jun 24th 2008 3:52PM
The best part of the Spider-Man games is swinging around New York. Everything else gets in the way of that. Screw the narrative. That's what comic books are for.
Noshino @ Jun 24th 2008 4:15PM
The best part of a Spider-man game, is playing as Spider-man....I really don't think that Spider-man became famous for just swinging around New York...
samfish @ Jun 24th 2008 3:52PM
Jaffe's a douche
FOXHOUND @ Jun 24th 2008 3:59PM
Noooooo, Summer's Eve is a douche. *guh*
...and officially, the last good Marvel game was the narrative-free MARVEL VS CAPCOM2. 'Nuff said.
PojoMofo @ Jun 24th 2008 4:05PM
Ultimate Alliance was pretty good, I enjoyed it. Looking forward to #2 (crosses fingers)
If Maverl vs Capcom 2 was the one on the Dreamcast, then it is the best Marvel game ever.
Noshino @ Jun 24th 2008 4:10PM
"If Maverl vs Capcom 2 was the one on the Dreamcast, then it is the best Marvel game ever."
Yes it was
Dirty @ Jun 24th 2008 4:13PM
I think you need both, I really feel like from a game standpoint that emulating the feel of having super powers is incredibly important. In Spidey 2 the whole game was based around a really good feeling of swinging through the city, in hulk ultimate destruction it was all about smashing things and being invincible and I thought both of those games were very fun. On the other hand it would be nice to have a game being story driven, the problem being that a fan of the comics already knows every plot line.
The bottom line is that the developers paid a lot for the franchise and dont wont to spend a lot on a good writers. They know it will sell well based on the character.
Balzac @ Jun 24th 2008 4:17PM
Not a good point by Jaffe.
Why conform to the boundaries of 'narrative' when a genre as rich as superhero/action allows for so much freedom? Activision and Treyarch have been onto something good with their current interpretation. Subscribing to the model that narrative is the essence of advancement in games will ultimately be its undoing.
Noshino @ Jun 24th 2008 4:20PM
I don't think you actually understood what he meant:
"Good story in games IS mission design and IS character mechanics. For me, good story in game design for a spidey game would be stuff like:
-Spidey swinging above the city when his powers begin to give out and he has to- on the fly- adjust to slowly losing his powers (one by one, but in the order you- as a player choose- so there is some strategy to which powers you keep the longest before you are drained of them all)- ...so it begins with him battling the Green Goblin as Spidey- with all his Spidey powers- and by the end of the battle, you've lost all your super powers and all you've got is Peter Parker's very limited abilities (which=nothing but his intellect)...but you've still got to figure out how to stop the bad guy (cause, as Peter, you've still got this massive sense of responsibility)....granted, if not tuned right, this could be annoying to play, but for the sake of this discussion, assume it's tuned right. To me, this is a great example of a story scenario that you would see in the comics tied into the gameplay.
-Spidey being forced to deal- thru gameplay- with his ever present 'with great power comes great responsibility' dilemma...again, have not thought this thru play wise but perhaps over time there is some sort of guilt that builds up if Spidey takes the easy way out too often (allows pedestrians get hurt when battling bad guys, doesn't go after some bad guys that are able to be captured but do not need to be caught in order to win the mission,etc). Once the guilt meter is filled up, it begins to affect play or story/mission. Sort of like the fear meter in Eternal Darkness but less surreal and more tied into the actual mission design. A great way for the classic aspect of Spidey's character to come thru via play."
jhay @ Jun 24th 2008 4:46PM
The entirety of his first notion seems to rely on his, strictly theoretical, ideals; as even he states -
"...if not tuned right, this could be annoying to play, but for the sake of this discussion, assume it's tuned right."
When put into effect, most of his ideas would lead to convoluted game design. I believe the point of his argument was to further immerse the player, through narrative elements, not distance them.
His second point I can better support. The ideas put forth in the way ED dealt with "sanity" have yet to really be explored and could affect gameplay design in a richer sense.
Herolink @ Jun 24th 2008 4:41PM
Seriously, my FAVORITE part of the spiderman movies were the speech bubbles and action panels. Cause he IS complaining about the games based on the movies right? right?
I really wish God of War sucked cause this guy did not need to develop a superiority complex.
guidedbyvoip @ Jun 24th 2008 4:51PM
Agreed. Twisted Metal? Where's the story in that? And before anyone rolls out God of War, please read some Edith Hamilton, because *thats* story. GoW had cool fight mechanics and fluid control. The storyline was a pinball game of Greek Mythology not much more. /flameshield engage
Phranctoast @ Jun 24th 2008 5:11PM
boy did you get that wrong.
He's the most humble developer I ever heard interviewed. He talks himself down and others up...
oh...And twisted metal black had a story. Is was a twilight zone of mixed stories, but they were there if you actually played the game.
Noshino @ Jun 24th 2008 5:13PM
surprisingly, there was a story in Twisted Metal...
Phranctoast @ Jun 24th 2008 5:13PM
boy did you get that wrong.
He's the most humble developer I ever heard interviewed. He talks himself down and others up...
oh...And twisted metal black had a story. Is was a twilight zone of mixed stories, but they were there if you actually played the game.
carg0 @ Jun 24th 2008 5:02PM
...and games made by developers who actually give a shit about putting out a quality product. that'd be nice for a change.
Mr Khan @ Jun 24th 2008 5:18PM
And then we get back into the whole problem with licensing
If Marvel founded their own game publishing/development house, you could see a great increase in quality. Similarly, if AOL Time Warner had their own dev-house, their subsidiary DC could get some good stuff out there for a change. Self-published, unlicensed
Jason @ Jun 24th 2008 5:19PM
To all game developers: Play the Metal Gear Solid series for some insight into using narrative.
* notice I said "insight" meaning take what works and leave the rest.
UNC_Samurai @ Jun 24th 2008 5:50PM
What Marvel needs is to stop making licensed games based on movies. Just skip the tie-ins. The world can do without Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer.
Orionsaint @ Jun 24th 2008 7:10PM
This Jaffe guy creates what, maybe two good games? Now he's the authority on gaming?
Sir Fidlious Wong (Justin T. McElroy Memorial Burn of the Day Award) @ Jun 24th 2008 9:31PM
Well, aside from Mickey Mania, all of his games have been good. But aside from that, Jaffe doesn't even consider himself a top tier game designer.
He just loves to wax poetic about his industry and other things.
FOXHOUND @ Jun 25th 2008 7:35AM
LoL Prior to his "demi-godlike" status in KINGDOM HEARTS, MICKEY MANIA *was* the best Mickey game out there.
YinzJagz @ Jun 25th 2008 1:38PM
Honestly how many more sandbox hulk, spiderman, and iron man games do we need?
Superstar90 @ Jun 25th 2008 3:28PM
Can we have a good X-men game that follows an already founded storyline? Either from the TV show or the Comic book story arches?
Note: TV show as in the original. Not the stupid "Let's all be high school kids be in the same classes the Brotherhood" Evolution storyline. Even though, Evolution kinda picked up in the 3rd season...