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Reader Comments (67)

Posted: Jun 25th 2008 6:01PM (Unverified) said

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+1 to Mr. Methenitis for use of the knowledge power to do good and not evil
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Posted: Jun 25th 2008 6:18PM (Unverified) said

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I don't really mind trash talk, but there is a certain amount of behaviour on Live that I simply cannot tolerate.

For example, people's frequent use of the word n*gger, to describe everything and everyone. It's pathetic and simply displays ignorance and an inability to speak the English language at an intellectual level.

It's pathetic.
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Posted: Jun 25th 2008 6:02PM Duke said

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"Any claim to freedom of speech being abridged online in the forums we're discussing isn't by act of government."

I have tried to explain this to people around here so many times. Its amazing that people don't know more about how their constitution is applied.
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Posted: Jun 25th 2008 10:08PM (Unverified) said

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It's like shouting "FIRE!" in a crowded building.
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Posted: Jun 26th 2008 2:06AM Andrew F said

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Actually Vault, it isn't the same. Mark (and NATO_Duke) are saying that censoring trash talk is okay so long as it's not done by the government. If the government passed a law that censored trash talk, then that would probably violate the first amendment.

The emphasis here is on WHO makes the law.

You can't shout "Fire" in a public building because safety concerns outweigh free speech in this case. That is, it's WHAT you say. Both the government and owners of private property can forbid people from saying "fire" or "bomb".
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Posted: Jun 25th 2008 6:08PM Otimus said

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It's true! Once you sign up for a service, forum, etc, you practically throw away any and all of your rights, and, at least 75% of the time, submit to want practically amounts to a tyranically fascist approach. (Sometimes it works out.. sometimes it does not... see: Garry's Mod forums, any sort of group that releases anything for anyone, etc)
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Posted: Jun 25th 2008 6:11PM (Unverified) said

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You sir are frankly the most awesome thing online, have my e-babies for that amazingly intelligent post.
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Posted: Jun 25th 2008 6:12PM (Unverified) said

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preaching to the choir...

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Posted: Jun 25th 2008 6:19PM (Unverified) said

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Completely off topic here, but is that your mugshot?
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Posted: Jun 27th 2008 1:00PM (Unverified) said

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yeah, its about five years old too.
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Posted: Jun 25th 2008 6:13PM (Unverified) said

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Thank you for writing this, Mark.
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Posted: Jun 25th 2008 6:20PM (Unverified) said

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So it has to be on Government property?

So I can run around in a state park screaming I AM A FUCKING BABY KILLER!?

Sweet..
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Posted: Jun 25th 2008 6:58PM AirIntake said

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No, because you don't really have free speech, even when the government's concerned, no matter what a really old piece of paper tells you. Call up the White House and mention that you'd like to see the President dead and see what happens (note that saying you'd like to see the president dead is not technically a death threat). Or try telling the NSA that you work for Osama Bin Laden. Or try telling a cop to go fuck himself.......the list is endless, but you see what I'm saying about not really having any free speech.
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Posted: Jun 25th 2008 7:00PM aristokrat said

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Except that state parks tend to be government property?
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Posted: Jun 25th 2008 7:06PM (Unverified) said

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There's a concept called 'time-place-manner' as well as a few certain content restrictions that the court has upheld (fighting words, for example). So even on government property, it's not an unlimited right to free speech.

I didn't go into these because they weren't relevant to the topic at hand.
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Posted: Jun 26th 2008 8:54AM Rocketboy said

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Let me distill Air Intake's argument..

"No ways you have free speech, because, like, you can't threaten to kill people."

Idiot.
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Posted: Jun 25th 2008 6:21PM FredFredrickson said

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I couldn't agree more - I'm a moderator at a site with over 60,000 members, and every now and then when we have to take action against somebody, we get all this (and more) thrown at us. Random people will start acting like a riot is about to go down, and it will take hours or even days to get everyone to calm down. It's annoying, and it would never happen if we forced everyone to read this.
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Posted: Jun 25th 2008 6:34PM Quaid Rayn said

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That was incredibly informative and enjoyable to read. Well done on writing a very good article. Thanks for the info!!
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Posted: Jun 25th 2008 6:29PM WhiteRime said

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OMG Thank you!!! Finally someone willing to call out these idiots and tell them that the United States and the Internet are not the same thing. I work for a Civil Rights organization and I have to hear this same uneducated line fairly often.
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Posted: Jun 25th 2008 6:33PM mardigan71 said

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Aside from the First Amendment thing, what most of these trash talkers don't seem to understand is that just because you *can* do something, doesn't necessarily mean you *should*.
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Posted: Jun 25th 2008 6:48PM fourblades said

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Ok is it just me or staring on that picture gives you headache like some sort of subliminal message... maybe it's just rasterized or compressed weird but I got dizzy reading it...
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Posted: Jun 25th 2008 6:54PM (Unverified) said

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Censorship is bullshit. end of story.
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Posted: Jun 25th 2008 7:05PM Spiritof said

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You need to read it again.

It's not censorship if you willingly sign a virtual contract stating that you know that certain activities will not be tolerated. What it is, is breaking a code of conduct. To say that your definition of censorship is bad is like saying law and order is bad. If you can't live under a set of rules you'd better not be signing up for XBL in the first place.
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Posted: Jun 25th 2008 11:46PM vidguy said

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1 - I'd love to see Microsoft retaliate by claiming breach of contract against some of those trouble users. I know it's not a good case but it would be hilarious.

2 - I'm enjoying that Jonnson's censorship line has been effectively censored by the readers. It's like democratic censorship, FTW!
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Posted: Jun 25th 2008 7:00PM (Unverified) said

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From one lawyer to another--thank you! Now I have a very concise, well-written article (geared toward the non-lawyer) to cite in forum posts and discussions with lay-gamers.

IMO, it's time for adult gamers to feel some meaningful consequences for ruining other gamers' experiences online and for the PARENTS of minor gamers to step in and punish and police their children who I believe are the primary cause of most profanity and vulgarity on Xbox Live.

That's right parents, you're kids aren't in jeopardy, you're kids ARE the problem.
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Posted: Jun 25th 2008 7:20PM (Unverified) said

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I'd jump aboard the bandwagon here, except that I believe too much in the Principle of Sticks and Stones. Protected speech or not, online trash-talk really shouldn't be actionable in any case where the recipient(s) have the common sense to IGNORE. Libel/slander is not exactly possible in an anonymous online network (nor is it the intention of the trash-talkers - they usually intend to provoke, which is only actionable if the target allows him/herself to become provoked), so THAT'S out of the bag. And we know they'll always be around, being as it is a Rule of the Internet. So you can claim your private domain rights all you'd like - getting a bunch of faceless kids on the Internet to "play nice" according to your ideals is ultimately an exercise in futility. So let morons be morons, and if you don't want them around... well, there's always locked games with trusted friends. (How's THAT for private domain?)
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Posted: Jun 25th 2008 7:12PM (Unverified) said

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Regarding your comment about how online play could have more meaningful interaction and build a greater sense of community, I speculate that part of the meaningful interaction involves, as an example, discussing tactics in a 1st person shooter to overcome the opposing team as a team.

I'd also speculate that a large part of the decision by developers to include voice chat in-game is for that purpose. But I'd like to point out that the society we, as Americans, live in is an individualistic--almost narcissistic--society.

There simply is no desire for a large majority of gamers to work as a team and sacrifice themselves to bring their team to victory. It is a "look at me!" society, where everyone wants to be the center of attention. I dare to even theorize that this "me me" society is the reason shooters are so popular in America; the genre puts players in the shoes of their characters, allowing them to show themselves off.

It's not the "blast everything that moves" that clicks with the people. It's the "you're the center of the game world" aspect that clicks.

I understand that this comment may be off topic, but I wanted to lay it out because it is one of the underlying causes to the lack of order in online game chats.
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Posted: Jun 25th 2008 7:12PM vidguy said

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This past semester I did a 20-page term paper entitled "Silence in the Tubes: The Myth of Freedom of Speech Online" in which I reach this same conclusion after a much more winded argument. Considering that the majority of the Internet, including its websites and supporting hardware, is privately owned, it makes me cringe when commentors lay out the free speech argument. I've actually brought that up here a few times before:
http://www.joystiq.com/2008/04/24/nintendo-of-america-passionately-upset-about-wii-supply/#c11799394
http://www.joystiq.com/2008/05/06/take-two-sues-chicago-transit-for-pulling-gta-iv-ads/#c11986687

One thing though: the Prodigy holding has been all but overturned. I forget the cases now - wouldn't be hard to look them up - but the courts have said that ISPs would have to knowingly and willingly host material in order to be liable for it. They are pretty much viewed in the same way as other, hands-off service providers.
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Posted: Jun 25th 2008 7:51PM NecroSen said

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More than likely he means that website owners are liable for the comments made by their users. Site owners have the ability to edit or delete comments and ban users if they like, and doing so is their prerogative. If they fail to moderate the spam and trash talk, it would appear that the site owner condones such practices, and thus are responsible for any damages caused by it.

For instance, if YouTube chose to ignore notices from TV and movie producers after they found copyrighted material posted on the site, then YouTube is essentially aiding copyright infringement by not acting to remove it.
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Posted: Jun 25th 2008 8:40PM vidguy said

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Agreed. If it is shown that owners are expected to moderate their sites, then they will have liability for the content. Both the commentor and the moderator could be held liable for speech that incites violence or is similarly unprotected.

However, I'd be interested to learn what the courts have said about the expectation of moderation. How large, for example, must a site be before the owner is expected to actively moderate comments? Are all sites that have the ability to post comments legally required to be moderated?

Should it be held that CNN.com has to, by law, moderate comments? Joystiq.com? What about a small, two-posts-a-month, personal blog on blogspot.com?

I'm sure that it would come down to the potential effects of the unmoderated site - as in, the unprotected speech on the blogspot blog would have a minuscule effect next to the same speech on CNN.com.

You also have a disconnect created by the Internet. AFAIK, it has yet to be shown that one can incite a riot with an Internet posting. The cases before the courts on this topic of long been about inciting violence /at the physical area/ in which the speech is delivered.

The Internet creates many ambiguities in the law that have to be approached and answered very specifically. Interesting stuff.
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Posted: Jun 26th 2008 1:38AM (Unverified) said

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I remember reading that the main reason Google is so reluctant to employ moderators/editors for youtube is that as soon as they do that they become liable for all the content on there. Right now they leave the moderation up to the users, and therefore aren't liable (in theory).
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Posted: Jun 26th 2008 7:30AM vidguy said

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Exactly. Just as if Napster hadn't kept lists on its servers of the files being shared by the users, it wouldn't have been liable for illegal file sharing. If Napster just went "here's a program to share files", it would have been a lot harder to show that they had the ability and the duty to police the network.
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Posted: Jun 25th 2008 7:16PM GoonieGooGoo said

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I think if XBOX LIVE actually paid attention to and enforced their rules by actually paying attention to player reviews & the complaints filed....this would not be an issue.

I know for sure that I always submit a player review or file a complaint when I encounter a particularly idiotic player on XBOX LIVE. Everyone should do the same.
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Posted: Jun 25th 2008 7:21PM (Unverified) said

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(DAMN YOU DOUBLEPOST)

In other words, you don't have a right to civility any more than they have a right to incivility.
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Posted: Jun 25th 2008 7:34PM Shogan said

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I'm not defending trash talking, that stuff really doesn't apply. But in the online world, we really don't have any rights to privacy or free speech. We've narrowed it down in the real world to only certain acceptable forms of speech are tolerated, so really... most anything that doesn't mesh with what the media tells us will get you into some form of trouble.
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Posted: Jun 25th 2008 7:42PM (Unverified) said

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theres one big thing you over looked that is a problem with many mods. They should not be allowed to ban someone just because they disagree with that persons views or because that person is stating an opposite view of what someone else said who wasn't banned or censored. Thats biased and hypocritical there and should not be allowed. If one person is going going to be allowed to voice their views, then all people should no matter what that view is.

now things they should be banned for and only for when it comes to speech is: Spam, inciting a hate riot/fight (but this can not be confused with someone stating their views, each case is different), blantently breaking set/written rules (if they are reasonable and do not oppose you of your other rights), and threats.

If Mark Methenitis disagrees with this then he needs to stop being a lawyer.


also why the complaint been changed from "race and hate talk" on live and PSN to just trash talking in general? trash talking is seen all over, in sports, gaming, whatever. Sure its annoying and doing so can make you look like an ass but thats part of it. Sure it would be good not having it all together but if you censor that then it will just keep going till chatting is banned all together. You're never going to stop the complaints.

I do tend to cuss a good bit when im playing but its when i screw up, or there is cheating going on, or if the game is screwing up. that stuff should be fine.
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Posted: Jun 25th 2008 9:12PM Roxinos said

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I have to ask: Why shouldn't those things be offenses which a person can be banned from a private website for? And why should those other things be banned? You make a distinction that calls upon some supposed general sense of moral obligation, but my morals may differ from yours, and what you think is right or wrong, others may disagree. That's the very heart of your argument and yet you say that Mark should stop being a lawyer if he disagrees with you?

No offense intended, of course. But there is a radical difference between what *should* happen and what *can* happen. A lot of people probably shouldn't be allowed to ban people or censor people for various things they say, but they can.
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Posted: Jun 26th 2008 2:18AM Andrew F said

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Josh, it's a legal question. Moderators are LEGALLY allowed to ban you for whatever reason they want. It may not be the right thing to do, but they can do it and there's really nothing you can say.

For example, let's say I'm a Boston Red Sox fan. My neighbor walks into my house wearing a New York Yankees baseball cap. I make him leave. You can argue that there's nothing wrong with supporting another baseball team, but that's not the point. The point is that it's MY house, and I can force him to leave for whatever reason I want.

Internet forums are the same way. They're someone's private place and they can boot you out for any reason they want.
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Posted: Jun 25th 2008 7:52PM Roxinos said

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My only problem with this is simply that this speaks towards the practicality of the First Amendment rights. In a practical situation, you will always lose the First Amendment argument because of the reasons detailed above. However, the First Amendment, and, on a greater scale, the Bill of Rights in its entirety, was written to have a written contract enforced upon the government to prevent the government from attempting to abridge those rights which are ours at birth. Those certain inalienable rights of "life, liberty, and property," were elaborated on further by the creation of the Constitution and the outlining of the rights the government is not allowed to abridge. Liberty is quite vague, don't you think?

So while in a practical situation, one will always lose the argument, and those rights can be abridged very easily, and you will almost always lose a court case on the First Amendment grounds for why you said or did something, the First Amendment right is simply a declaration for rights which are universal. Not simply on the subject of prohibition of government intervention.

I follow the idea that while you have the right to say you what you want, you also have the right to not look like a complete jackass. You choose.
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Posted: Jun 25th 2008 8:46PM vidguy said

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The limits on those "unalienable" rights are largely there as a way to balance your rights with your neighbor's. If George uses his unalienable right to free speech to incite violence that kills Jim, Jim's right to life is abridged. A rational society needs to create limits to every right.

Additionally, while a comment poster has the right to speech, the website owner has the right to property - which includes control over the website. Someone has to be given precedence, and it has to be done the same way every time, don't you think?
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Posted: Jun 25th 2008 8:50PM Roxinos said

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Using the same ideas that the Constitution in question were founded upon, a rational society comes together and forms a mutual agreement (or a constitution) that states they acknowledge their rights and are giving power to a higher authority (government) to ensure that those rights are not abridged by each individual. So I understand your point, and I agree. But that was never stated in the above article, so I'm glad that you managed to bring it out.
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Posted: Jun 25th 2008 9:06PM vidguy said

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And you rightly bring up the distinction of the social contract. Bravo, Roxinos ;)
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Posted: Jun 25th 2008 8:33PM freelance said

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Now go explain that to all those idiots who defended Imus.
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Posted: Jun 25th 2008 10:36PM Spiritof said

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When you're playing XBL you are not a product with dedicated listeners, owners and advertising. When you act like an ass on XBL, you're just an ass. When you act like and ass on commercial radio, you're a shock jock. Imus' sponsors, owners and listeners can (and did) come down just as hard on him as Microsoft could on bigots with XBL. Imus is trying to create a product, you are paying someone else for a service. They're two totally different arguments.
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Posted: Jun 25th 2008 10:53PM freelance said

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@ spirit-of
What is your point? His job is still not protected by the first amendment.
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Posted: Jun 26th 2008 12:35AM Spiritof said

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At the core, yes, Don Imus is protected by the first amendment, but he could have been fired by his boss (who's his boss, NBC?) if they so chose and there's not a whole lot Imus could have done about it. If Imus said something offense on air and NBC agreed with his opinion, then he can continue saying whatever he wants.

NBC could fire Imus if they wanted to. Free speech wouldn't protect him. Try going to work tomorrow and calling your boss a twat, see if free speech gets you your job back.
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Posted: Jun 26th 2008 8:36AM freelance said

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I wasn't talking about his "core." I was talking about his job. Hey, but thansk for making my point.
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Posted: Jun 26th 2008 10:57AM Spiritof said

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When I say "core" I mean that, as an American, Imus is protected by free speech. As an employee of NBC he absolutely is not. If NBC decides to not fire him and he stays on the air, then the best way for listeners to voice their outrage is to turn the channel and boycott his sponsors. Crying that he was saved, or should be saved, by free speech just isn't true. Freedom of Speech is there so that individuals have the right to freely debate policy and peaceably assemble, it's not there to give carte blanche to numbnuts.
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Posted: Jun 25th 2008 8:58PM (Unverified) said

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This reminds me of the time I saw an American try and use this “first amendment” crap over in the UK after a police officer told him to quieten down. Resulted in a trip to the station
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Posted: Jun 25th 2008 11:11PM LaughingTarget said

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And the same thing happened to a UK citizen here who tried to walk out of a hospital thinking it was free. Ignorance transcends borders.
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