Law of the Game on Joystiq: No Freedom of Trash Talk
Each week Mark Methenitis contributes Law of the Game on Joystiq, a column on legal issues as they relate to video games:

In a recent Sessler's Soapbox, Adam took the opportunity to comment on some of the trash talking on Xbox Live. During the course of that diatribe, he mentioned that he thought the First Amendment argument was a "crock of s***" with respect to trash talking. Well, as the resident lawyer here on Joystiq, I'd like to take this opportunity to explain the First Amendment argument is just flat out wrong. In fact, it's one of my greatest pet peeves that the First Amendment gets thrown about as an excuse for most everything that is said in the realms of gamer culture, from trash talking in online matches, to posts on forums, to comments on gaming blogs.
In case you're one of the thirty-four people worldwide who has never experienced the phenomenon in question, this is essentially what's being talked about: Typically, someone will do something offensive online, be that posting something in a forum or saying something on Xbox Live. Then, someone in power will either reprimand that user, often through censoring, or banning for the behavior. This is typically either followed by that user or some other user decrying this exercise of authority as a violation of their 'rights.' The responses do vary, but as a moderator of one of the biggest forums on the internet, I've seen everything from 'OMG U R VIOL8ING MY FURST AMNDMT RYTES!!!11!' to some very lengthy and polished answers. The only commonality between these varying levels of responses is that they are all wrong.
There's one other point of clarification that goes along with this particular discussion, and that's the 'First Amendment' reference. For those of you abroad who aren't as familiar with the American system, people are referring to the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States. The text of the first amendment reads: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. Shortened to the relevant portion for this discussion: Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech. Beyond the fact that this right is more or less limited to applicability in the US, the text of the amendment itself is a huge hint as to why this argument is doomed to fail.
In short: Any claim to freedom of speech being abridged online in the forums we're discussing isn't by act of government. Xbox Live, message boards, and blog comments are all activities on what amounts to the digital equivalent of private property. Think of it this way: If you were to go down to your local mall and start shouting things that offended other mall patrons, would the mall be able to force you to leave the premises? Of course they would. Your right to free speech is limited while you are on private property, be that real world property or someone's digital network. US courts have generally held that digital property is analogous to private property and thus have found against free speech in a number of cases, mostly on the issue of spam.
But there are two other fundamental reasons why speech can be limited on private digital networks. First, based on the Prodigy case, there is precedent that the owner of the network can be held liable for the content put on that network. Secondly, and more importantly, all of these relationships are governed by contract, and those usage contracts almost always have clear rules as to what is or is not acceptable behavior on that network. There are clear content rules on Xbox Live and most of the major message boards. Abiding by these rules is part of the terms of service that you agreed to in order to participate in that forum.
There are, of course, other laws beyond the US. Far be it from me to ignore three other potential sources of a right to freedom of speech, which are: the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the European Convention on Human Rights, and the United Nations International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. The text of each is as follows:
Universal Declaration of Human Rights
Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.
European Convention on Human Rights:
1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises.
2. The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary.
International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights
Everyone shall have the right to freedom of expression; this right shall include freedom to seek, receive and impart information and ideas of all kinds, regardless of frontiers, either orally, in writing or in print, in the form of art, or through any other media of his choice.
Ultimately, though, I would expect that these would be interpreted much the same way as the First Amendment is, requiring that the censorship be some governmental action. More importantly, these declarations, especially the United Nations ones, have a significant problem with enforcement. There would be a far greater chance of enforcing the European Convention through the EU than there would be utilizing the UN measures. I'm not aware of any precedent for utilizing UN conventions to enforce free speech on private networks, much less on something that is as trivial as trash talk.
And in the grand scheme of things, trash talk is trivial speech. Freedom of speech has its roots in political speech, which in the US receives the highest protections from the courts. Calling people names after they stick you with a grenade in Halo 3 is not political speech.
Ultimately, content restrictions and behavior rules ensure that the online community can be enjoyed by the largest possible audience. While I'm not personally bothered much by the things people say online, I know a lot of people are. Even though I'm not bothered, there is a substantial amount of time when I didn't even bother to wear a headset, because I know most of the chatter is meaningless. Ultimately, that is what online play has become in the vast majority of matches. We, as a gamers, could have much more meaningful in-game interaction and build a much greater sense of community in online play if we wanted to. Maybe the better solution is to subdivide Xbox Live based on preferences like these, but that could create even more complications in online play. I would expect that even some of the most ardent supporters of freedom of speech online would likely be worn down if subjected to the dregs of in-game chatter for a few hours.
Mark Methenitis is the Editor in Chief of the Law of the Game blog, which discusses legal issues in video games. Mr. Methenitis is also a licensed attorney in the state of Texas with The Vernon Law Group, PLLC and a member of the Texas Bar Assoc., American Bar Assoc., and the International Game Developers Assoc. Opinions expressed in this column are his own. Reach him at: lawofthegame [AAT] gmail [DAWT] com.
The content of this blog article is not legal advice. It only constitutes commentary on legal issues, and is for educational and informational purposes only. Reading this blog, replying to its posts, or any other interaction on this site does not create an attorney-client privilege between you and the author. The opinions expressed on this site are not the opinions of AOL LLC., Weblogs, Inc., Joystiq.com, or The Vernon Law Group, PLLC. As with any legal issue that may confront you in a particular situation, you should always consult a qualified attorney familiar with the laws in your state.

In case you're one of the thirty-four people worldwide who has never experienced the phenomenon in question, this is essentially what's being talked about: Typically, someone will do something offensive online, be that posting something in a forum or saying something on Xbox Live. Then, someone in power will either reprimand that user, often through censoring, or banning for the behavior. This is typically either followed by that user or some other user decrying this exercise of authority as a violation of their 'rights.' The responses do vary, but as a moderator of one of the biggest forums on the internet, I've seen everything from 'OMG U R VIOL8ING MY FURST AMNDMT RYTES!!!11!' to some very lengthy and polished answers. The only commonality between these varying levels of responses is that they are all wrong.
There's one other point of clarification that goes along with this particular discussion, and that's the 'First Amendment' reference. For those of you abroad who aren't as familiar with the American system, people are referring to the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States. The text of the first amendment reads: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. Shortened to the relevant portion for this discussion: Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech. Beyond the fact that this right is more or less limited to applicability in the US, the text of the amendment itself is a huge hint as to why this argument is doomed to fail.
In short: Any claim to freedom of speech being abridged online in the forums we're discussing isn't by act of government. Xbox Live, message boards, and blog comments are all activities on what amounts to the digital equivalent of private property. Think of it this way: If you were to go down to your local mall and start shouting things that offended other mall patrons, would the mall be able to force you to leave the premises? Of course they would. Your right to free speech is limited while you are on private property, be that real world property or someone's digital network. US courts have generally held that digital property is analogous to private property and thus have found against free speech in a number of cases, mostly on the issue of spam.
"In short: Any claim to freedom of speech being abridged online in the forums we're discussing isn't by act of government." |
There are, of course, other laws beyond the US. Far be it from me to ignore three other potential sources of a right to freedom of speech, which are: the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the European Convention on Human Rights, and the United Nations International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. The text of each is as follows:
Universal Declaration of Human Rights
Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.
European Convention on Human Rights:
1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises.
2. The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary.
International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights
Everyone shall have the right to freedom of expression; this right shall include freedom to seek, receive and impart information and ideas of all kinds, regardless of frontiers, either orally, in writing or in print, in the form of art, or through any other media of his choice.
"Calling people names after they stick you with a grenade in Halo 3 is not political speech. " |
And in the grand scheme of things, trash talk is trivial speech. Freedom of speech has its roots in political speech, which in the US receives the highest protections from the courts. Calling people names after they stick you with a grenade in Halo 3 is not political speech.
Ultimately, content restrictions and behavior rules ensure that the online community can be enjoyed by the largest possible audience. While I'm not personally bothered much by the things people say online, I know a lot of people are. Even though I'm not bothered, there is a substantial amount of time when I didn't even bother to wear a headset, because I know most of the chatter is meaningless. Ultimately, that is what online play has become in the vast majority of matches. We, as a gamers, could have much more meaningful in-game interaction and build a much greater sense of community in online play if we wanted to. Maybe the better solution is to subdivide Xbox Live based on preferences like these, but that could create even more complications in online play. I would expect that even some of the most ardent supporters of freedom of speech online would likely be worn down if subjected to the dregs of in-game chatter for a few hours.
Mark Methenitis is the Editor in Chief of the Law of the Game blog, which discusses legal issues in video games. Mr. Methenitis is also a licensed attorney in the state of Texas with The Vernon Law Group, PLLC and a member of the Texas Bar Assoc., American Bar Assoc., and the International Game Developers Assoc. Opinions expressed in this column are his own. Reach him at: lawofthegame [AAT] gmail [DAWT] com.
The content of this blog article is not legal advice. It only constitutes commentary on legal issues, and is for educational and informational purposes only. Reading this blog, replying to its posts, or any other interaction on this site does not create an attorney-client privilege between you and the author. The opinions expressed on this site are not the opinions of AOL LLC., Weblogs, Inc., Joystiq.com, or The Vernon Law Group, PLLC. As with any legal issue that may confront you in a particular situation, you should always consult a qualified attorney familiar with the laws in your state.










Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Titanium_Orchid @ Jun 25th 2008 6:01PM
+1 to Mr. Methenitis for use of the knowledge power to do good and not evil
NATO_Duke @ Jun 25th 2008 6:02PM
"Any claim to freedom of speech being abridged online in the forums we're discussing isn't by act of government."
I have tried to explain this to people around here so many times. Its amazing that people don't know more about how their constitution is applied.
Vault @ Jun 25th 2008 10:08PM
It's like shouting "FIRE!" in a crowded building.
Andrew Fong @ Jun 26th 2008 2:06AM
Actually Vault, it isn't the same. Mark (and NATO_Duke) are saying that censoring trash talk is okay so long as it's not done by the government. If the government passed a law that censored trash talk, then that would probably violate the first amendment.
The emphasis here is on WHO makes the law.
You can't shout "Fire" in a public building because safety concerns outweigh free speech in this case. That is, it's WHAT you say. Both the government and owners of private property can forbid people from saying "fire" or "bomb".
Angry Gamer @ Jun 25th 2008 6:08PM
It's true! Once you sign up for a service, forum, etc, you practically throw away any and all of your rights, and, at least 75% of the time, submit to want practically amounts to a tyranically fascist approach. (Sometimes it works out.. sometimes it does not... see: Garry's Mod forums, any sort of group that releases anything for anyone, etc)
John @ Jun 25th 2008 6:11PM
You sir are frankly the most awesome thing online, have my e-babies for that amazingly intelligent post.
DM @ Jun 25th 2008 6:12PM
preaching to the choir...
Boffo the Sock @ Jun 25th 2008 6:19PM
Completely off topic here, but is that your mugshot?
DM @ Jun 27th 2008 1:00PM
yeah, its about five years old too.
emagius @ Jun 25th 2008 6:13PM
Thank you for writing this, Mark.
Reece @ Jun 25th 2008 6:18PM
I don't really mind trash talk, but there is a certain amount of behaviour on Live that I simply cannot tolerate.
For example, people's frequent use of the word n*gger, to describe everything and everyone. It's pathetic and simply displays ignorance and an inability to speak the English language at an intellectual level.
It's pathetic.
ViagraFiend @ Jun 25th 2008 6:20PM
So it has to be on Government property?
So I can run around in a state park screaming I AM A FUCKING BABY KILLER!?
Sweet..
AirIntake @ Jun 25th 2008 6:58PM
No, because you don't really have free speech, even when the government's concerned, no matter what a really old piece of paper tells you. Call up the White House and mention that you'd like to see the President dead and see what happens (note that saying you'd like to see the president dead is not technically a death threat). Or try telling the NSA that you work for Osama Bin Laden. Or try telling a cop to go fuck himself.......the list is endless, but you see what I'm saying about not really having any free speech.
aristokrat @ Jun 25th 2008 7:00PM
Except that state parks tend to be government property?
Mark Methenitis @ Jun 25th 2008 7:06PM
There's a concept called 'time-place-manner' as well as a few certain content restrictions that the court has upheld (fighting words, for example). So even on government property, it's not an unlimited right to free speech.
I didn't go into these because they weren't relevant to the topic at hand.
Rocketboy @ Jun 26th 2008 8:54AM
Let me distill Air Intake's argument..
"No ways you have free speech, because, like, you can't threaten to kill people."
Idiot.
Marty @ Jun 25th 2008 6:21PM
I couldn't agree more - I'm a moderator at a site with over 60,000 members, and every now and then when we have to take action against somebody, we get all this (and more) thrown at us. Random people will start acting like a riot is about to go down, and it will take hours or even days to get everyone to calm down. It's annoying, and it would never happen if we forced everyone to read this.
Kellian @ Jun 25th 2008 6:29PM
OMG Thank you!!! Finally someone willing to call out these idiots and tell them that the United States and the Internet are not the same thing. I work for a Civil Rights organization and I have to hear this same uneducated line fairly often.
MikeG @ Jun 25th 2008 6:33PM
Aside from the First Amendment thing, what most of these trash talkers don't seem to understand is that just because you *can* do something, doesn't necessarily mean you *should*.
Denis @ Jun 25th 2008 6:34PM
That was incredibly informative and enjoyable to read. Well done on writing a very good article. Thanks for the info!!
Christian @ Jun 25th 2008 6:48PM
Ok is it just me or staring on that picture gives you headache like some sort of subliminal message... maybe it's just rasterized or compressed weird but I got dizzy reading it...
Jonnson @ Jun 25th 2008 6:54PM
Censorship is bullshit. end of story.
Spirit-of @ Jun 25th 2008 7:05PM
You need to read it again.
It's not censorship if you willingly sign a virtual contract stating that you know that certain activities will not be tolerated. What it is, is breaking a code of conduct. To say that your definition of censorship is bad is like saying law and order is bad. If you can't live under a set of rules you'd better not be signing up for XBL in the first place.
vidGuy @ Jun 25th 2008 11:46PM
1 - I'd love to see Microsoft retaliate by claiming breach of contract against some of those trouble users. I know it's not a good case but it would be hilarious.
2 - I'm enjoying that Jonnson's censorship line has been effectively censored by the readers. It's like democratic censorship, FTW!
Flash @ Jun 25th 2008 7:00PM
From one lawyer to another--thank you! Now I have a very concise, well-written article (geared toward the non-lawyer) to cite in forum posts and discussions with lay-gamers.
IMO, it's time for adult gamers to feel some meaningful consequences for ruining other gamers' experiences online and for the PARENTS of minor gamers to step in and punish and police their children who I believe are the primary cause of most profanity and vulgarity on Xbox Live.
That's right parents, you're kids aren't in jeopardy, you're kids ARE the problem.
vidGuy @ Jun 25th 2008 7:12PM
This past semester I did a 20-page term paper entitled "Silence in the Tubes: The Myth of Freedom of Speech Online" in which I reach this same conclusion after a much more winded argument. Considering that the majority of the Internet, including its websites and supporting hardware, is privately owned, it makes me cringe when commentors lay out the free speech argument. I've actually brought that up here a few times before:
http://www.joystiq.com/2008/04/24/nintendo-of-america-passionately-upset-about-wii-supply/#c11799394
http://www.joystiq.com/2008/05/06/take-two-sues-chicago-transit-for-pulling-gta-iv-ads/#c11986687
One thing though: the Prodigy holding has been all but overturned. I forget the cases now - wouldn't be hard to look them up - but the courts have said that ISPs would have to knowingly and willingly host material in order to be liable for it. They are pretty much viewed in the same way as other, hands-off service providers.
NecroSen @ Jun 25th 2008 7:51PM
More than likely he means that website owners are liable for the comments made by their users. Site owners have the ability to edit or delete comments and ban users if they like, and doing so is their prerogative. If they fail to moderate the spam and trash talk, it would appear that the site owner condones such practices, and thus are responsible for any damages caused by it.
For instance, if YouTube chose to ignore notices from TV and movie producers after they found copyrighted material posted on the site, then YouTube is essentially aiding copyright infringement by not acting to remove it.
vidGuy @ Jun 25th 2008 8:40PM
Agreed. If it is shown that owners are expected to moderate their sites, then they will have liability for the content. Both the commentor and the moderator could be held liable for speech that incites violence or is similarly unprotected.
However, I'd be interested to learn what the courts have said about the expectation of moderation. How large, for example, must a site be before the owner is expected to actively moderate comments? Are all sites that have the ability to post comments legally required to be moderated?
Should it be held that CNN.com has to, by law, moderate comments? Joystiq.com? What about a small, two-posts-a-month, personal blog on blogspot.com?
I'm sure that it would come down to the potential effects of the unmoderated site - as in, the unprotected speech on the blogspot blog would have a minuscule effect next to the same speech on CNN.com.
You also have a disconnect created by the Internet. AFAIK, it has yet to be shown that one can incite a riot with an Internet posting. The cases before the courts on this topic of long been about inciting violence /at the physical area/ in which the speech is delivered.
The Internet creates many ambiguities in the law that have to be approached and answered very specifically. Interesting stuff.
t_m @ Jun 26th 2008 1:38AM
I remember reading that the main reason Google is so reluctant to employ moderators/editors for youtube is that as soon as they do that they become liable for all the content on there. Right now they leave the moderation up to the users, and therefore aren't liable (in theory).
vidGuy @ Jun 26th 2008 7:30AM
Exactly. Just as if Napster hadn't kept lists on its servers of the files being shared by the users, it wouldn't have been liable for illegal file sharing. If Napster just went "here's a program to share files", it would have been a lot harder to show that they had the ability and the duty to police the network.
kern2000 @ Jun 25th 2008 7:12PM
Regarding your comment about how online play could have more meaningful interaction and build a greater sense of community, I speculate that part of the meaningful interaction involves, as an example, discussing tactics in a 1st person shooter to overcome the opposing team as a team.
I'd also speculate that a large part of the decision by developers to include voice chat in-game is for that purpose. But I'd like to point out that the society we, as Americans, live in is an individualistic--almost narcissistic--society.
There simply is no desire for a large majority of gamers to work as a team and sacrifice themselves to bring their team to victory. It is a "look at me!" society, where everyone wants to be the center of attention. I dare to even theorize that this "me me" society is the reason shooters are so popular in America; the genre puts players in the shoes of their characters, allowing them to show themselves off.
It's not the "blast everything that moves" that clicks with the people. It's the "you're the center of the game world" aspect that clicks.
I understand that this comment may be off topic, but I wanted to lay it out because it is one of the underlying causes to the lack of order in online game chats.
GoonieGooGoo @ Jun 25th 2008 7:16PM
I think if XBOX LIVE actually paid attention to and enforced their rules by actually paying attention to player reviews & the complaints filed....this would not be an issue.
I know for sure that I always submit a player review or file a complaint when I encounter a particularly idiotic player on XBOX LIVE. Everyone should do the same.
OneTopJob6 @ Jun 25th 2008 7:20PM
I'd jump aboard the bandwagon here, except that I believe too much in the Principle of Sticks and Stones. Protected speech or not, online trash-talk really shouldn't be actionable in any case where the recipient(s) have the common sense to IGNORE. Libel/slander is not exactly possible in an anonymous online network (nor is it the intention of the trash-talkers - they usually intend to provoke, which is only actionable if the target allows him/herself to become provoked), so THAT'S out of the bag. And we know they'll always be around, being as it is a Rule of the Internet. So you can claim your private domain rights all you'd like - getting a bunch of faceless kids on the Internet to "play nice" according to your ideals is ultimately an exercise in futility. So let morons be morons, and if you don't want them around... well, there's always locked games with trusted friends. (How's THAT for private domain?)
OneTopJob6 @ Jun 25th 2008 7:21PM
(DAMN YOU DOUBLEPOST)
In other words, you don't have a right to civility any more than they have a right to incivility.
Shogan @ Jun 25th 2008 7:34PM
I'm not defending trash talking, that stuff really doesn't apply. But in the online world, we really don't have any rights to privacy or free speech. We've narrowed it down in the real world to only certain acceptable forms of speech are tolerated, so really... most anything that doesn't mesh with what the media tells us will get you into some form of trouble.
Josh @ Jun 25th 2008 7:42PM
theres one big thing you over looked that is a problem with many mods. They should not be allowed to ban someone just because they disagree with that persons views or because that person is stating an opposite view of what someone else said who wasn't banned or censored. Thats biased and hypocritical there and should not be allowed. If one person is going going to be allowed to voice their views, then all people should no matter what that view is.
now things they should be banned for and only for when it comes to speech is: Spam, inciting a hate riot/fight (but this can not be confused with someone stating their views, each case is different), blantently breaking set/written rules (if they are reasonable and do not oppose you of your other rights), and threats.
If Mark Methenitis disagrees with this then he needs to stop being a lawyer.
also why the complaint been changed from "race and hate talk" on live and PSN to just trash talking in general? trash talking is seen all over, in sports, gaming, whatever. Sure its annoying and doing so can make you look like an ass but thats part of it. Sure it would be good not having it all together but if you censor that then it will just keep going till chatting is banned all together. You're never going to stop the complaints.
I do tend to cuss a good bit when im playing but its when i screw up, or there is cheating going on, or if the game is screwing up. that stuff should be fine.
Roxinos @ Jun 25th 2008 9:12PM
I have to ask: Why shouldn't those things be offenses which a person can be banned from a private website for? And why should those other things be banned? You make a distinction that calls upon some supposed general sense of moral obligation, but my morals may differ from yours, and what you think is right or wrong, others may disagree. That's the very heart of your argument and yet you say that Mark should stop being a lawyer if he disagrees with you?
No offense intended, of course. But there is a radical difference between what *should* happen and what *can* happen. A lot of people probably shouldn't be allowed to ban people or censor people for various things they say, but they can.
Andrew Fong @ Jun 26th 2008 2:18AM
Josh, it's a legal question. Moderators are LEGALLY allowed to ban you for whatever reason they want. It may not be the right thing to do, but they can do it and there's really nothing you can say.
For example, let's say I'm a Boston Red Sox fan. My neighbor walks into my house wearing a New York Yankees baseball cap. I make him leave. You can argue that there's nothing wrong with supporting another baseball team, but that's not the point. The point is that it's MY house, and I can force him to leave for whatever reason I want.
Internet forums are the same way. They're someone's private place and they can boot you out for any reason they want.
Roxinos @ Jun 25th 2008 7:52PM
My only problem with this is simply that this speaks towards the practicality of the First Amendment rights. In a practical situation, you will always lose the First Amendment argument because of the reasons detailed above. However, the First Amendment, and, on a greater scale, the Bill of Rights in its entirety, was written to have a written contract enforced upon the government to prevent the government from attempting to abridge those rights which are ours at birth. Those certain inalienable rights of "life, liberty, and property," were elaborated on further by the creation of the Constitution and the outlining of the rights the government is not allowed to abridge. Liberty is quite vague, don't you think?
So while in a practical situation, one will always lose the argument, and those rights can be abridged very easily, and you will almost always lose a court case on the First Amendment grounds for why you said or did something, the First Amendment right is simply a declaration for rights which are universal. Not simply on the subject of prohibition of government intervention.
I follow the idea that while you have the right to say you what you want, you also have the right to not look like a complete jackass. You choose.
vidGuy @ Jun 25th 2008 8:46PM
The limits on those "unalienable" rights are largely there as a way to balance your rights with your neighbor's. If George uses his unalienable right to free speech to incite violence that kills Jim, Jim's right to life is abridged. A rational society needs to create limits to every right.
Additionally, while a comment poster has the right to speech, the website owner has the right to property - which includes control over the website. Someone has to be given precedence, and it has to be done the same way every time, don't you think?
Roxinos @ Jun 25th 2008 8:50PM
Using the same ideas that the Constitution in question were founded upon, a rational society comes together and forms a mutual agreement (or a constitution) that states they acknowledge their rights and are giving power to a higher authority (government) to ensure that those rights are not abridged by each individual. So I understand your point, and I agree. But that was never stated in the above article, so I'm glad that you managed to bring it out.
vidGuy @ Jun 25th 2008 9:06PM
And you rightly bring up the distinction of the social contract. Bravo, Roxinos ;)
Freelance @ Jun 25th 2008 8:33PM
Now go explain that to all those idiots who defended Imus.
Spirit-of @ Jun 25th 2008 10:36PM
When you're playing XBL you are not a product with dedicated listeners, owners and advertising. When you act like an ass on XBL, you're just an ass. When you act like and ass on commercial radio, you're a shock jock. Imus' sponsors, owners and listeners can (and did) come down just as hard on him as Microsoft could on bigots with XBL. Imus is trying to create a product, you are paying someone else for a service. They're two totally different arguments.
Freelance @ Jun 25th 2008 10:53PM
@ spirit-of
What is your point? His job is still not protected by the first amendment.
Spirit-of @ Jun 26th 2008 12:35AM
At the core, yes, Don Imus is protected by the first amendment, but he could have been fired by his boss (who's his boss, NBC?) if they so chose and there's not a whole lot Imus could have done about it. If Imus said something offense on air and NBC agreed with his opinion, then he can continue saying whatever he wants.
NBC could fire Imus if they wanted to. Free speech wouldn't protect him. Try going to work tomorrow and calling your boss a twat, see if free speech gets you your job back.
Freelance @ Jun 26th 2008 8:36AM
I wasn't talking about his "core." I was talking about his job. Hey, but thansk for making my point.
Spirit-of @ Jun 26th 2008 10:57AM
When I say "core" I mean that, as an American, Imus is protected by free speech. As an employee of NBC he absolutely is not. If NBC decides to not fire him and he stays on the air, then the best way for listeners to voice their outrage is to turn the channel and boycott his sponsors. Crying that he was saved, or should be saved, by free speech just isn't true. Freedom of Speech is there so that individuals have the right to freely debate policy and peaceably assemble, it's not there to give carte blanche to numbnuts.
Rosssas @ Jun 25th 2008 8:58PM
This reminds me of the time I saw an American try and use this “first amendment” crap over in the UK after a police officer told him to quieten down. Resulted in a trip to the station
LaughingTarget @ Jun 25th 2008 11:11PM
And the same thing happened to a UK citizen here who tried to walk out of a hospital thinking it was free. Ignorance transcends borders.