Joystiq Podcast Extend Extra: Metal Gear Squabbling

No one here has a problem with people criticizing MGS 4. We've heard it thousands of times since it came out already. The problem is when you compare the story to FPS games, of which 99.99999% have no story at all in them.

That is taking it bit over the top. It's a fantastic game with amazing production values but it has it's share of flaws and it's certainly not the game for everyone.

The dialog is inconstant. Sometimes the dialog flows naturally, sometimes it feels forced. Sometimes it comes off smart, other times it makes little sense. The story is very entertaining and the back story is incredibly dense but I personally don't feel like the story is as profound as others seem to believe.

Gameplay wise, MGS 4 is an enormous improvement over its predecessor. The gameplay is incredibly deep, with tons of options. Every scenario can be played out in dozens of different ways.

The only problem I have is that the breaks between gameplay, especially as you near the end of the game, become longer while the actual gameplay becomes shorter. MGS 3 really streamlined the cutscenes, keeping them shorter but without sacrificing any of the storytelling and at the same time gameplay sections were lengthened. I think MGS 4 was a bit of a step backward in that department. The cutscenes looked amazing but I think a few of the longer ones could have been better edited. A few of the cutscenes basically consist of a handful of talking heads. In these cases I think brevity should have taken higher priority. There is a scene at the very end in particular, where a character repeats the same exact message over and over again but in just slightly different ways. It kind of killed the moment for me.

Don't get me wrong I love the game and I love the series but I think the pedestal you're placing it on is a bit too lofty.

It's about as dumb as when you compared the plotlines of MGS to Gears of War. That right there should make everyone else ignore what you say.

At least none of the characters are sleds. ;)

Man... did you copy all that from somewhere or did you actually waste a bunch of time typing up a bunch of stupid comparisons?

But the Sled wasn't even a character. It was a representation of his lost youth and innocence as he was essentially "sold" to the bankers handling the load. He went from being a poor child in a boarding house, often abused by his father and protected by his mother to suddenly being nothing more than an bargaining chip to the gold fortune. The sled itself represents that fateful day, the turning point which destroyed him....

You know, the worst thing about taking 3D computer animation is you have to take film appreciation and directorial studies... I've written five papers on Citizen Kane alone, GAK! Well, certainly beat my acting class though.

@ Tmac

Why? He has a point.The plot is retarded and its entire appeal relies solely on the audience's suspension of disbelief.If you're not willing to accept this bullshit then this isn't a game for you.

No offence, but a 2008 Nex-Gen game shouldn't have such an attitude towards story-telling, let alone being compared to Citizen Kane.

"So explain in detail why a game that is half cinematics and half game play is soooooooooooo much better than an FPS where all its concerned about is having the player interact with its character 80% of the time."

It's better because there is 0 real character interaction in FPS games (with the exception of half life 2 and I guess Bioshock). I don't consider hearing Fenix grunt and shout as he's firing his machine gun in depth character development or interaction. There's no plot development either. You're blasting aliens away and no one, including the game itself, cares why. It's just filler and an excuse to kill stuff.

Even when it "works" like in Half Life 2, do you really feel that much better running in a circle while people talk to you instead of watching it? I ended up not even listening to them at all because if I moved too far away I couldn't even hear them anymore. I pretty much found it an excuse for people with extreme ADD to move around during story stuff.

Well, Sheppy, I think that answer is quite a bit more serious than mine. :)

Leobebes, I'm not sure what you'll gain from asking people to prove their opinions, like it's the result of a mathematical equation. The fact that you dismiss the love for a "movie game" as "irrational" tells me that you're not really open to discussion on the matter.

@ Tmac

For fuck's sake, we're all smart enough to know that MGS4 =/= GoW. Stop making this goddamn comparison just because he used it when talking about Political Correctness and Black Stereotyping.In fact I couldn't think of a better example myself.

They're completely different games and I swear if I hear it one more time...

@Vidikron

Let me use another example. Halo is also used as an example by MSG4 fans as having an inferior storyline than MSG4, yet if you read some of Halo's backstory through its novels, its just as fleshed out as the MSG4 storyline. But Bungie, like many western developers, made a choice to not include 5 discs loaded with cutscenes (I understand the power of Blue Ray), to flesh out the details and the entirety of the Halo universe Bungie would have to sacrifice what Halo fans love the most Gameplay. Halo's storyline plays out as much as it should to advance the narrative, through your gameplay choices you keep that narrative going. It is unnecessary to have Master Chief lament the Covenant's position on international trade and the feelings they would have if the Flood would interrupt the galactic shipping lines, because most of us gamers just want to play the damn game!

"Let me use another example. Halo is also used as an example by MSG4 fans as having an inferior storyline than MSG4, yet if you read some of Halo's backstory through its novels, its just as fleshed out as the MSG4 storyline."

Let me first say that I've got nothing against Halo, GoW, or MGS4. But I don't think you can really use the books in a fair comparison. If you're going to compare two games then it should be the just the games. It's a sure bet that the vast majority of gamers out there that bought Halo haevn't even touched the books. So their content is essentially meaningless when comparing the games.

Yes, MGS4 story line is crazy and over the top, but I honestly enjoyed it immensely. It was a wild ride. Sure, the large amount of cut scenes are going to turn some people off, but so what? Many others enjoyed them. They were some of the best cut scenes I've ever seen. If you don't care for the story or the way it's told, stick with games like GoW where the story is less important to the experience.

Then yell at him Jakka because he not only did it here he made a direct comparison yesterday.

And if bungie chose to leave story out of halo, then they have to accept the criticism that the story is shallow and extremely weak. I shouldn't have to read books to get a video game's story.

Fair enough Vidi you are a beautiful man.

ugh, seriously Leobebes, last time you also tried to pull the Gears comparison....it doesn't really work...

OH, and if I may point out

"So explain in detail why a game that is half cinematics and half game play is soooooooooooo much better than an FPS where all its concerned about is having the player interact with its character 80% of the time. "

Just shooting-taking cover-shooting isn't exactly interacting with the character....

Leobebes, MGS4 is like this. And you will choose to ignore this I'm sure and trot out a diatribe later which will becoming so elaborately worded yet mindnumbingly stupid that all lessons learned herein will be lost.

We, as gamers, have been subjected to a vast majority of attempts to bridge the art or interactive and noninteractive entertainment. And while most Americans spent majority of their time bitching about having to actually LISTEN to people in Grim Fandago and enjoy a story for once, Japan had been experimenting with this style for a long, long time. Be this from the Shadowgate series all the way up to the numerous adventure games commonly populating the DS and PSP titles. Japan, as a culture, hasn't turned away from stories to the point where their action games equate to giant penises running around and strapping chainsaws to their guns.

It's cool that a game like Painkiller, where the only purpose and goal is to mince you enemies up into easily packagable meaty portions for use in McDonalds McNuggets can exist in the same world where screaming men with bombs for hands coming running in droves out of the desert and that's fine. Once upon a time, these companies even pretended they needed a story, sometimes they still pretend. It's fun to pretend. But Gears of War could have zero story and still be Gears of War. It's not pretending to blur the line between games and movies nor is the story ambition beyond Jocko Triggerfinger slapping Biff Blastwell on the ass after tearing 30 generic uglies into quivering muscle mass with glowing armor.

But Mteal Gear Solid is not that way. From the very beginning, it was trying to tell a story while constantly referencing itself. The story is, admittedly insane, but no farther out there than other considered classics like Wizard of Oz or Alice in Wonderland. We have a classic tale of an insane man attacking a windmill because he thinks it's a dragon for fucks sake. Kojima's stories are insane, true enough, but there is a large amount of thought put into it and he constantly references himself (your examples of Johnathon or Big Mama become especially irnonic). It's a style of storytelling that you may or may not like. The fact that Kojima left us with cliffhangers like a hive mind under the White House and managed to explain that is a perfect example. So long as you go into Metal Gear Solid with the idea that "this is the Japanese equivelant of Neil Gaiman," it's enjoyable.

But who am I kidding? You always had hate for this, never once wanted to give it a chance, and was just waiting for release so you could vindicate your bitches against the game. It's a work of fiction that blends interactive and noninteractive art. But you don't want to hear that. All you want from a game is a short curse what you screw up your reloading minigame. I'm fine with that. But in the immortal words of Dante Hicks, I'm not going to let your shit taint the rest of ours.

"@jordan the burden of proof is on you guys."

The proof is that some of us think its the greatest game ever.

How good a game is doesn't and shouldn't come down to a checklist. I don't think anyone can deny that MGS4 has well polished and has high production values but the question of what makes you fall in love with the game isn't a list of back of the box features.

We can't prove its the greatest game ever to you if you don't think it is. Its like trying to prove crunchy peanut butter is the best kind of peanut butter because its, well, crunchy. I don't like crunchy bits so you just proved why its not the greatest peanut butter ever.

I thought MGS1 was the greatest game ever and still is, all 6 hours of it. Why? I'm not sure. All I can say is that right from the moment Snake swam down the underwater tunnel my brain was saying "you love this game".

A game that I'm really enjoying now, RooGoo.

Features: You put shapes through holes shaped the same way.

There I just proved why its a fantastic game.

you dont have to be angry and bitchy to argue. I merely like debating, and since I'm at work, I'm getting paid to do so. Works out pretty nicely, IMO

LOL the icon and screen name almost negate your truthful comment... but yeah, Debates are fine. XD

Hmm... But he can't be, since genome soldiers were all breaking down in MGS1. It's why Liquid needed Big Boss' "remains."

He was definitely a member of the genome army but he may have avoided the gene therapy the way he avoided the nano machine injections but then the question remains. Why does he look so much like Snake?

When I first saw him, I saw David Hayter for some reason...

I (like others) take issue with the whole "MGS4" couldn't run on 360, c'mon these guys are supposed to be impartial, but when they start showing their stupid fanboy-ism assumptions I really get turned off with joystiq.

First: MGS4 only uses 4 gigs on my PS3's HD. This could also be done on 360. As it just reinstalls on that space. (Which with DVD being faster, I doubt installation would be necessary, but multiple discs would be needed. No big deal) And c'mon you can't run it on 360 because of the dual screen with Snake/Raiden. C'mon damn fanboy crap.

Second: 360 has twice the ram PS3 does, textures will have an advantage on 360.

Third: Xenos (360's GPU) is more powerful than RSX (PS3's GPU).

Now, I'm not knocking the PS3, as its a way to play MGS4, but there is NO technical reason why the 360 could not run this game.

I don't think those speaking were fanboys, though. I think they just overlooked that every console gets better with age, and the MGS4's recent use has just created a kind of "this is amazing and has never been done before" perspective. A fair perspective that becomes unfair when it makes people think that the game is impossible on the 360. As you said, yes, the 360 has (not more) better RAM usage (it is not constrained 256 to GPU and CPU. It is 512 to be split however the dev wants) and it does have the superior GPU.

Well, I can't speak for Ludwig and Ross, but the disc space is really the biggest issue, in my eyes. They could make it run on 360, although I have to agree with Ross; the textures would need to be at lower resolutions and the frame rate might take a hit if ported to 360.

It's such a technically impressive game, I have a hard time believing the 360 could run the same game.

And, in regards to the fanboy thing, I work for the Wii and DS sites. It's even said in the podcast. :)

Neodark, I think you're overreacting. Firstly, this isn't a news bulletin that warrants impartiality -- it's a podcast meant to delve into our opinions of the game.

Secondly, our statements are simply based on what we see to be a game that's very tailored to a specific set of hardware and are not meant as an insult to the 360. If you'll recall, the port of Metal Gear Solid 2 from PS2 to Xbox brought with it significant framerate problems -- and that was to a *more* powerful system!

Furthermore, since our observations are only based on our experiences with the game, and not with any technical nitty-gritty, our arguments are about as good as yours. None of us are game designers. That is, unless you actually are a game designer. :)

I still have to think that the 360 will have games that look better than MGS4 by 2011. The PS3 at that time will have games that look better than those 360 games, but it's not like the 360 will all of a sudden stop looking better with each year after Gears of War 2. My bet is a port around the time the revision is released. It would need more than one disc even if the second was only installed. Or three... Four is more like it, LOL.